When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

spartrekus · 2017-05-06 19:36:07

Hello,

Wayland + Systemd is coming fairly on most Linux distributions. Original Linux will no longer look the same.
X11 window managers will have to be reprogrammed, and many things will no longer work.

To make even more mess within the Linux commnunity, when Wayland will finally bring death of X11 and many viable programs?

thank you for not supporting Systemd.

cpoakes · 2017-05-07 04:02:14

My prognostication (for Debian and by inference Devuan):

With the glacial progress, missing drivers, and feature-incomplete status of Wayland, there is little to no chance it achieves default display manager status in Debian buster (freeze in 1.5 years, release mid-2019). Optimistically, it achieves default status in the following Debian release: bullseye (2021). And as we know, "default" does not mean retired or even obsolete. Considering the popularity of alternative window managers (like openbox and fluxbox) and no apparent heirs (save for i3/sway), X11 will remain the display manager of choice for these users. And with the difficulty Wayland has providing current hardware with video drivers, I wager it ultimately fails to provide adequate support for "older hardware". These shortfalls will prolong the death of X11 beyond buster's EOL (2024) well into the next decade.

spartrekus · 2017-05-07 07:00:16

* Because Ubuntu adopted Wayland, there is indeed a high chance that Debian will follow, for the next or next next release of Debian.
Hopefully Wayland will give not manage to conquest all Debian-based distros.

* Concerning support, older hardwares aren't a big deal for most distros since they do not offer support. Debian cannot support, easy let's drop it: https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/05/ … older-cpus There is nothing wrong in offering a debian system with 486. It is possible to make Debian for use of everyone. It does not cost so much more energy, and it would avoid community to fork and to make many thousand distros, which live 5-10 years and ... non maintained, then vanish/disappear.

* In my opinion, if X11 dies, hopefully, someone will preserve and will maintain for history, but also for continuing Education and Research Purposes on Unix(-like) systems the old good following:
- W
- (Xvesa, XFree86), X.Org
- SysV way.
- Alsa
and so on...

* Of course, Wayland and new shining desktops are also good for guys that use their machines like a shining MS-Windows desktop. Graphical effects distract me for the essential. I am fine with an ugly TWM and FLTK. Ok, let's return to Space Travel game

Last edited by spartrekus (2017-05-07 07:22:52)

yeti · 2017-05-07 08:29:55

Current X11 with all those mean extensions is not as network transparent as it used to be a decade ago.
:-(

Sure it kind of works today but more and more programs are using features that put a horrible amount of data in motion or are not network transparent at all.

There was a video of Wayland makers ((ex-)X11 coders) declaring X11 dead because of it's ugly add-ons over the decades. But who has made them if not the X11 coders?

Now that's taken as reason for Wayland...

X11 may be dead but it was killed by its own maintainers!

Not amused at all I am!

I loved XDMCP!

*sigh!*

Last edited by yeti (2017-05-07 12:20:08)

msi · 2017-05-11 23:19:29

Apropos X11 and potential successors: I just read yesterday that in the early 2000's there existed a project called the Y Window System which was developed by a guy named Mark Thomas at London's Imperial College and intended as a potential successor to X11. The design documents are still available at http://www.imperial.ac.uk/pls/portalliv … 619743.PDF.

Development of the original project seems to have ceased in 2004, but there has been a continuation called DsY-Windows. They have a Sourceforge page stating the last update occured in May 2015. It seems, however, that no one is really working on that anymore, which is a bit strange given the bunch of problems that seem to exist with X11.

Also, some one at the Xorg Foundation has written down a few ideas about a potential "X12" system some time ago: https://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12

FOSSuser · 2017-05-12 10:25:54

Maybe the networking interfaces could be stripped out without too much disruption to produce a new base for those who like to just use a window manager & don't use X11's networking capabilities(?).

(I only use X11 to run my WM, as a home user of Linux.)

Bad Sector · 2017-05-26 18:51:06

X11 is a protocol, not an implementation. Xorg just happens to be the currently most popular implementation. Some years ago it was XFree86, before that it was something else.

The thing with protocols and implementations is that you do not have to rely on a single implementation. Indeed there are other X11 implementations beyond Xorg (some even written in JavaScript - for example this one https://github.com/GothAck/javascript-x-server).

So what if Xorg dies? Well, first it wont matter for as long as there are people who want to use X11 since there will be other X11 servers. But secondly, and most importantly, it wont die because it can be forked. Much like Devuan exists because some people disliked systemd, a Xorg fork will certainly be made because there will be people who dislike Wayland.

Xorg is FLOSS after all. FLOSS doesn't die, at the worst case it just stays dormant until someone picks it up again. There are way less popular projects in the world than X11/Xorg that have active thriving communities, there is no danger of X11/Xorg going anywhere for at least a couple of decades from today.

GNUser · 2017-05-26 20:04:04

I hope that either a) the X11 protocol and its cornucopia of tools never die (as Bad Sector suggests) or b) if/when Wayland becomes default, it will offer tools that allow us to do at least as much as we can do with X11.

I rely heavily on desktop environment-agnostic and window manager-agnostic (i.e., highly portable) tools such as xdotool (for GUI automation) and xbindkeys (for keyboard shortcuts). I'd be a miserable GNU/Linux user without these tools or something very similar.

Last edited by GNUser (2017-05-26 20:05:15)

Bad Sector · 2017-05-26 20:11:31

FWIW i fully expect Wayland to become the default display server in the future, at least for the mainstream Linux distributions (especially Fedora and Ubuntu). But being default doesn't mean being the only option, as long as you can remove it (or not install it at all, for the distros that start small and allow you to build up your environment as you like it) it'll be fine.

spartrekus · 2017-05-28 06:18:41

GNUser wrote:

I hope that either a) the X11 protocol and its cornucopia of tools never die (as Bad Sector suggests) or b) if/when Wayland becomes default, it will offer tools that allow us to do at least as much as we can do with X11.
I rely heavily on desktop environment-agnostic and window manager-agnostic (i.e., highly portable) tools such as xdotool (for GUI automation) and xbindkeys (for keyboard shortcuts). I'd be a miserable GNU/Linux user without these tools or something very similar.

Me too, here, I have xbindkeys and I try to rather use wmctrl and no longer xdotool (in any case, xdotool isnt installed at school). The libx11-dev is installed on all my PCs, which allow me to deploy my X11 tiny apps on any Linux (using gcc and libx11-dev). For instance, nxmessage "hello" replaces ndzen brillantly.

Since no one is installing Linux from source code, by rather using instead a so-called "distribution", you will be always be somehow dependent. Why not using Windows then? There should be some sort of programmes that can be compiled over time without be in danger by devel / developers that want to experiment thing. Since most users use a distro and cannot compile, then, they end in strong dependency.

If X11 (or successor) changes its libraries someday, then, that's bad for everyone at some point of the time. Everyone does not agree to drop important programmes just because libraries have changed. The point is probably to have strong reliable libraries. Are they ?? Not much really.

Nate · 2017-05-30 23:45:50

I have adopted a workflow on this desktop that requires the support of Zaphodheads of X11. Will Wayland have any such support? It seems the cool kids want to have some massive desktop extended across several monitors. That is of little interest to me as I make use of the workspaces in Xfce. With two desktops through Zaphodheads I have a total of eight workspaces on two independent desktops. The best part is that when I switch a workspace on Screen0, the workspace on Screen1 doesn't change. This allows me to have an editor open on Screen1 Workspace 4 while I use Firefox on Screen0 and Workspace 2 or read mail on Screen0 Workspace 3. With an extended desktops all monitors are on the current workspace, which just doesn't fit what I want to do.

Support for odd cases like this is what makes X11 so powerful. I'm not sure the present developers even understand this.

Last edited by Nate (2017-05-30 23:46:12)

spartrekus · 2017-05-31 20:50:52

Nate wrote:

I have adopted a workflow on this desktop that requires the support of Zaphodheads of X11. Will Wayland have any such support? It seems the cool kids want to have some massive desktop extended across several monitors. That is of little interest to me as I make use of the workspaces in Xfce. With two desktops through Zaphodheads I have a total of eight workspaces on two independent desktops. The best part is that when I switch a workspace on Screen0, the workspace on Screen1 doesn't change. This allows me to have an editor open on Screen1 Workspace 4 while I use Firefox on Screen0 and Workspace 2 or read mail on Screen0 Workspace 3. With an extended desktops all monitors are on the current workspace, which just doesn't fit what I want to do.
Support for odd cases like this is what makes X11 so powerful. I'm not sure the present developers even understand this.

We are maybe too old for Linux. Linux is getting heavy, bloated, ... and it is ready for cool kids. Don't you think that we shall consider using BSD rather than Linux?

golinux · 2017-05-31 20:54:43

spartrekus wrote:

We are maybe too old for Linux. Linux is getting heavy, bloated, ... and it is ready for cool kids. Don't you think that we shall consider using BSD rather than Linux?

I say let's teach those kids what Linux should be. I know I'm not going down quietly . . .

yeti · 2017-05-31 21:17:07

spartrekus wrote:

We are maybe too old for Linux. Linux is getting heavy, bloated, ... and it is ready for cool kids. Don't you think that we shall consider using BSD rather than Linux?

As soon as NetBSD is using APT!

Nate · 2017-06-01 03:02:14

spartrekus wrote:

We are maybe too old for Linux. Linux is getting heavy, bloated, ... and it is ready for cool kids. Don't you think that we shall consider using BSD rather than Linux?

I agree with GoLinux as I'm not ready to give Linux up for a long while yet. I've installed FreeBSD a few times in a VM and was always put off by the way the screen fonts and such seemed to never work with Midnight Commander and such. I didn't ever spend enough time with it to work out those issues. I even tried Debian kFreeBSD once as well. This was back when the SCO lawsuit was raging in full fury, so quite some time ago.

For those that find *BSD useful, more power to you. I'm not going to argue. I've also jumped back into Slackware for some tasks. I think a person should use two or three (or more) distributions regularly. I've often learned things on one that can be generally applicable to another. Plus, a broader base of knowledge is helpful when failures happen.

smoki · 2017-06-01 21:03:34

spartrekus wrote:

When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

Once you install only Wayland and don't install any X11 app, which might happen whenever you want.

Sorry for sarcastic answer as these kind of question can't be answered really especially with a keyword "fully" in it, as it could be now or never so depends on you.

When someone says "fully" i think of "empty"... kind of Monty Python's Flying Circus logic.

Also word old is relative as Wayland is also old kind of 10 years old or at your choice maybe you can say "decade young" They started thinking of it as soon as Google's phones and Android appeared, actually developed so year or two before.

Builded upon Google's success and dominance with phones, Wayland was basicaly X for phone and Gnome is DE for phone (big icons, touch friendly, etc... vs keyboard/mousing, you know)... basically kind of X/DE also phone-friendly, (Cannonical's Unity X/Mir is similar story), where X is considered not so phone friendly, now by extending functionality and investment from RH, what remains is to convince people to use it on their Desktops too.

Future is Now if you want that, just don't run X apps Otherwise and the opposite run bloat if you want that. Third option should be, The Past is Tomorrow that could work also

Last edited by smoki (2017-06-01 22:06:57)

FOSSuser · 2017-06-02 08:05:16

I keep a foot in the OpenBSD camp, I can have a usable system in less than 1GB, whilst most L/W Linux distros are now over 2GB when installed, it's getting really bloated!

spartrekus · 2017-06-02 20:08:39

FOSSuser wrote:

I keep a foot in the OpenBSD camp, I can have a usable system in less than 1GB, whilst most L/W Linux distros are now over 2GB when installed, it's getting really bloated!

It is really a lot.

A normally Installed Linux with X11 or alt should or could run on max of 350 Mb, max.

spartrekus · 2017-06-11 13:06:47

Do you think that someday DEVUAN will adopt WAYLAND if all other distros goes for Wayland?

mckaygerhard · 2017-06-11 15:42:34

spartrekus wrote:

Do you think that someday DEVUAN will adopt WAYLAND if all other distros goes for Wayland?

its a good question.. currently many people said that Devuan seems a anti-systemd moda..

some services are seems not active and many changes not tracked by users on devuan that still depends from Debian like packages like postgesql that when install refers all to Debian and does not proper do some things... most closed to debian: http://bugs.devuan.org//cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=103&msg=2

my point its that maybe will be happened like does with systemd vs sysvinit... a distro will assumed the problem like gentoo and similars does.. but i see that at git devuan are very alone and no activity are registered since las annunce of devuan stable.. for a distro that covers so many archs and derived from a great that was Devian its an alert..

similar are happened with firefox recent anunce of FF57 and FF58, many things happened and users analice, FF57 "its now like chrome" so i'll use chrome..

seems users here not have their control of the freedown and companies and powered developers sponsored by companies interes (like wayland and stupid eye-candy things) are the moda!

spartrekus · 2017-06-11 16:01:13

Indeed too little development... unfortunately.

mckaygerhard wrote:

seems users here not have their control of the freedown and companies and powered developers sponsored by companies interes (like wayland and stupid eye-candy things) are the moda!

What to do to bring back Unix moda?

It seems that linux users want they machine like a Windows or Android. Unix changes progressively to Windows, eye candies, slow systems, ... maybe one day X11 will never be. what to do then?

mckaygerhard · 2017-06-11 16:20:41

spartrekus wrote:

It seems that linux users want they machine like a Windows or Android.

you are wrong.. developer make it! there's too many infiltrade guindows like developers..

thinking abou it! go to a free software project.. a guindows download are ready and prepared to use it!, guindows downloads are the most.. . and the worsk.. guindows users said (using most free software from unix type) that paid software are better that's ironic!

spartrekus · 2017-06-11 18:32:09

mckaygerhard wrote:

spartrekus wrote:
It seems that linux users want they machine like a Windows or Android.
you are wrong.. developer make it! there's too many infiltrade guindows like developers..

guindows is getting likely soon or later the largest population today. Probably they missed the first initiation to GNU, kernel and free Unix systems. Unix is much different than Windows, which makes it difficult to understand the programming philosophy.

Complex Java, C#,... are abominations for the veteran Unix programmers, who started from assembler, Fortran, Pascal... and C, C++ programming experiences.

Last edited by spartrekus (2017-06-11 18:34:26)

mckaygerhard · 2017-06-12 02:14:43

spartrekus wrote:

Complex Java, C#,... are abominations for the veteran Unix programmers, who started from assembler, Fortran, Pascal... and C, C++ programming experiences.

ka ka ka.. okay wel.. , well, but i'm not taking about a closed view of the things.. all of us must open our limits and see beyond ..the problems its as you said.. they people that missed GNU, kernel and free Unix systems filosofy.. as example the systemd problem that rely in this new system, Devuan...

spartrekus · 2017-06-12 05:20:55

mckaygerhard wrote:

spartrekus wrote:
Complex Java, C#,... are abominations for the veteran Unix programmers, who started from assembler, Fortran, Pascal... and C, C++ programming experiences.
ka ka ka.. okay wel.. , well, but i'm not taking about a closed view of the things.. all of us must open our limits and see beyond ..the problems its as you said.. they people that missed GNU, kernel and free Unix systems filosofy.. as example the systemd problem that rely in this new system, Devuan...

After Systemd, the best is maybe the spying done, with convenient spyware features.
Richard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP8CNp-vksc

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#1 2017-05-06 19:36:07

When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#2 2017-05-07 04:02:14

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#3 2017-05-07 07:00:16

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#4 2017-05-07 08:29:55

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#5 2017-05-11 23:19:29

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#6 2017-05-12 10:25:54

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#7 2017-05-26 18:51:06

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#8 2017-05-26 20:04:04

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#9 2017-05-26 20:11:31

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#10 2017-05-28 06:18:41

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#11 2017-05-30 23:45:50

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#12 2017-05-31 20:50:52

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#13 2017-05-31 20:54:43

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#14 2017-05-31 21:17:07

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#15 2017-06-01 03:02:14

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#16 2017-06-01 21:03:34

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#17 2017-06-02 08:05:16

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#18 2017-06-02 20:08:39

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#19 2017-06-11 13:06:47

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#20 2017-06-11 15:42:34

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#21 2017-06-11 16:01:13

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#22 2017-06-11 16:20:41

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#23 2017-06-11 18:32:09

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#24 2017-06-12 02:14:43

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

#25 2017-06-12 05:20:55

Re: When Wayland will fully replace the old X11?

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