GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

zapper · 2025-06-16 01:53:45

https://www.phoronix.com/news/GNOME-Way … temd-Focus

Immediately found this out when browsing distrowatch.

As some people know, I find this to be completely stupid and flat out arrogant.

The cheek one must have to doing stuff like this is immense.

Then again, corporations love this kind of cheek... so yeah.

Thoughts anyone?

brocashelm · 2025-06-16 06:10:13

Too bad no one forked GTK2. GNOME's developers are really abhorrent people (and that's putting it nicely).

At least X11Libre exists -- so far, Artix GNU/Linux already has it packaged, and the AUR also has a build.

Camtaf · 2025-06-16 09:28:10

I don't use Gnome, never have, & I don't like systemd either, so no worries as far as I'm concerned.

Altoid · 2025-06-16 11:16:52

Hello:

Michael Larabel wrote:

This will make it harder to run GNOME on operating systems without systemd.

Hmm ...

A huge loss ...
A truly huge loss indeed. :^(

A.

zapper · 2025-06-16 19:24:49

@Camtaf gnome is a waste yes. Although, most of the DEs except LXDE, XFCE4 and LUMINA look awful and are bloated garbage.

And have unneeded dependencies...

This being said, I just cannot stand that level of arrogance. Such a-holes.

@brocashelm Agree with all of that. I just hope XLIBRE isn't tainted by the ideology of the person developing it. He supposedly is a fascist, I hope he keeps his views out of his project.

I don't trust him too much. But then I don't trust GNOME or Redhat devs either. So... yeah.

Corporate rulers = bad

Fascism = awful

I will have to see how this future progresses to know whether xlibre is any good. Although, Xenocara also exists and I tend to think that might be a better option. Besides which, it works in Hyperbola. Except pledge and unveil of course.

Time will tell...

brocashelm · 2025-06-16 20:51:52

zapper wrote:

I just hope XLIBRE isn't tainted by the ideology of the person developing it. He supposedly is a fascist, I hope he keeps his views out of his project.

Seems like he keeps much of his views out of the project, so "both sides" can be happy about that. What, because the Code of Conduct page says "404", that makes him a "fascist"? Or someone who's just tired of all the GNOMEsense (pronounced "nonsense")? For what it's worth, I agree with him on most of his personal politics (especially the risks of the mRNA jabs, which I am glad I never got) and would be really disappointed if he was just LARPing all along.

But, that's another topic for another day. This is about the software, not what we personally think of the author. I'll gladly prefer him over some mentally ill cross dresser doing everything in his power to stifle the GNU/Linux desktop experience. A lot of of us have had enough of that. It's already conflicting there are anti-Wayland folks who don't mind Systemd. They should be cautious of both.

zapper wrote:

Although, Xenocara also exists and I tend to think that might be a better option.

OpenBSD's Xenocara is already experimenting with Wayland.

Last edited by brocashelm (2025-06-16 21:31:24)

zapper · 2025-06-17 03:53:29

@brocashelm I don't know if or when they will embrace wayland.

Its possible you are right, but I don't know yet. I am undecided on what I think will happen with that.

Devarch · 2025-06-17 11:55:12

if or when they will embrace wayland

What is wrong with Wayland? I use Wayland because only Wayland is able to scale all apps correctly even those that cannot be scaled with qt or gtk scale.

yurimodin · 2025-06-17 15:20:08

What is wrong with Wayland? I use Wayland because only Wayland is able to scale all apps correctly even those that cannot be scaled with qt or gtk scale.

Most of the accessibility stuff is waaaaay behind. Screen readers, on screen keyboards, etc. That said I have been using Wayland on my gaming machine because.....shiny.

Camtaf · 2025-06-17 17:05:02

I've got Wayland running on my RPi5, so far, the only problem I've had is with touch screens...so I'm willing to stick with it on this SBC, but tend to stick with using Xorg on most of my other machines, (& as noted, Xenocara on OpenBSD).

fanderal · 2025-06-17 22:02:33

A few days ago...

Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre!
Updated: June 13, 2025
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xlibre.html

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn · 2025-06-18 09:46:43

hat-tip to @fanderal for referencing:

https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xlibre.html

always enjoy dedoimedo and "turdling" was a big rotflmao. priceless.

snippet:

I do not hate Wayland. I have no personal beef with it. I don't really care. I'm not a developer. I am not bothered by software. It's a means to an end.
What I don't like is ANY, I repeat ANY software solution that champions mediocrity.
For example, Skype 8 over Skype 7. Microsoft removed the sane desktop-oriented Skype 7, which let you do multiple chat windows at the same time, and replaced it with a pseudo-touch "modern" turdling that could not do this thing, and many other things. New solution, inferior to old solution. Missing functionality. The end user suffers. Simple.

indeed...sigh.

Devarch · 2025-06-18 12:30:38

Most of the accessibility stuff is waaaaay behind. Screen readers, on screen keyboards, etc. That said I have been using Wayland on my gaming machine because.....shiny.

Yes. Screen keyboard, correct scaling, different scaling factors for different displays connected simultaneously.

https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xlibre.html

Interesting.

Andre4freedom · 2025-06-19 14:15:13

Wayland breaks professional software, that's bad enough:

https://linuxiac.com/kicad-advises-linu … cb-design/

I used kicad quite a lot. So wayland is a no. X is and will be.

zapper · 2025-06-20 03:35:58

Xenocara > Xorg&maybe xlibre? > Wayland

Last edited by zapper (2025-06-20 03:36:10)

steve_v · 2025-06-20 03:42:36

zapper wrote:

GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still

Zapper is taking the "whine about evil overlords rather than doing anything constructive, in hopes others will validate with more whining" approach still.
FTFY.

GNOME / freedesktop / Redhat / IBM has an agenda, one that involves agressively pushing thier (weak copyleft or "open source") solutions as dominant standards. This is not new. This is not unexpected. This will not change, no matter how much childish name-calling you do.

If you don't like what Redhat is doing, don't use thier solutions (or better, fork them and fix them). If you don't like wayland, run X11 and/or contribute to Xlibre instead.
If you're going to pick fault with all alternatives because you don't like the personalities or supposed politics involved... Congratulations, you're part of the problem.

Aside, on GNOME in general, for many years now: ∨∨∨

Last edited by steve_v (2025-06-20 03:45:14)

zapper · 2025-06-20 04:20:16

@steve_v as usual... punching down rather than punching up.

Its easy for you to criticize a small person so you choose that. Congratulations, you just played yourself.

Zzzzzzzzzzz....

Xenocara is the best option btw.

Xlibre could be good, but I am not certain yet of if he, the person in charge of it, is pushing his political beliefs on it.

Till I know, I will stick with my support for Xenocara only.

Now if you excuse me, I don't take pleasure in playing with your childish insults or in fighting them either.

Last edited by zapper (2025-06-20 04:22:12)

steve_v · 2025-06-20 04:24:07

@steve_v *is waiting for Xlibre to finish compiling right now*
And you? Yeah, that's what I thought...

Last edited by steve_v (2025-06-20 04:26:02)

brocashelm · 2025-06-20 22:36:24

Yeah, I can't wait to finally start using XLibre by means of DEB files. I know I could just compile, but I'd rather trust an experienced packager with getting that available on Debian (whether officially or unofficially) first.

If and when I am forced to move on from Daedalus (because there's going to be even more Systemd when Debian releases Trixie, plus more bloated horseshit from upstream) or onto some rolling release distro, XLibre will be mandatory for me to install and use.

I VIL not install Wayland and I VIL be happy.

steve_v · 2025-06-21 00:35:34

brocashelm wrote:

I know I could just compile, but I'd rather trust an experienced packager

Well somebody has to actually test the thing, no? If we all just sit around waiting for the magical pixies to do everything, nothing gets done.

I VIL not install Wayland and I VIL be happy.

To be fair, wayland is *mostly* usable... But my own year-or-so living with it came to an end fairly recently, because upstream apparently has no interest whatsoever in getting from "mostly" to "fully" usable, or considering any use-case beyond "works for normie tasks on my laptop/corpo-drone workstation".
Every single proposition or pull request furthering feature-parity with X11 or backwards compatibility of any kind results in endless stonewalling, recursive arguments, and NIH bullshit. One can smell the "Desktop Linux belongs to us, toe the line or GTFO" excreta dribbling down from Redhat and IBM suits a mile away.

So back to a display server that works it is... And FUD aside, Xorg still does.
Not "works if you use the right compositor on the right day of the week".
Not "works if the app you want to use has been updated in the last 5 minutes".
And certainly not "works if you squint a bit and ignore broken DPI scaling, janky session restore, buggy clipboards, screwed up window placement, missing features, and general dogs breakfast of competing, poorly concieved, partly implemented protocols"...
No, Xorg *just works*. It even works for 20 year old software, with minimal (and often no) changes... Imagine that.

So far, I can't really tell the difference between Xorg and Xlibre from an end-user POV, which is exactly as it should be.
Meanwhile, the "X is insecure" apocalypse is still stubbornly failing to materialise. I'm sure it sucks for somebody somewhere when reality gets all uncooperative like that.

I'll be keeping a dual-stack around in case wayland ever grows up (15 years and counting), but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Last edited by steve_v (2025-06-21 00:54:58)

golinux · 2025-06-21 00:53:52

@steve_v . . . Thanks for that excellent assessment. I do hope that SOMEONE will step up to provide an XLibre option for Devuan so that I can avoid Wayland for the remainder of my days. Sadly, the task is way above my pay grade . . .

steve_v · 2025-06-21 01:04:56

Packaging for Devuan... Not me, I don't run any Devuan desktops, and headless/CLI installs don't need any of this. For Gentoo OTOH... Hold my beer (If I don't get beaten to the punch that is, which I likely will).
That's all contingent on the Xlibre project not imploding under the mass of reddit-warrior attention of course, but so far so promising.

Last edited by steve_v (2025-06-21 01:06:11)

brocashelm · 2025-06-21 01:08:27

steve_v wrote:

Well somebody has to actually test the thing, no? If we all just sit around waiting for the magical pixies to do everything, nothing gets done.

No, I would be happy to test it out and report back on any issues I find. I just dislike the rituals of compiling in general. Provide the necessary DEB files, and they'll be stress tested.

Wayland is banned in this house, and I withhold any support I might've had for projects that started deprecating X11 and/or pushing for Wayland adoption.

zapper · 2025-06-21 12:27:48

@Steve_v I couldnt really understand what you were trying to say here:

"@steve_v *is waiting for Xlibre to finish compiling right now*
And you? Yeah, that's what I thought..."

Btw. Xenocara has better principles in place anyhow. Why not try compiling that? Hyperbola did it, I bet it could be done in devuan too.

Yes pledge and unveil wouldn't work, but its worked fine for me.

steve_v · 2025-06-21 13:57:46

I bet it could be done in devuan too.

Exactly this ^
You claim Xenocara is "the best option", but offer no technical arguments or comparisons to back it up. You claim it "could be done", but don't actually do it, even just for testing, even just for yourself.
You claim Xlibre "could be good", but you haven't tried building or using it... And your "doubts" are vague aspersions on the lead developers politics, rather than a technical assessment.

Why not try compiling that?

Why don't you try compiling that, if it's a project you want to promote?

As usual, it's all just talk, all just pontificating on what other people should or shouldn't do, passing judgement on people you have never met, and minor variations of "xyz developers I don't know are assholes/scumbags/[insert insult here]".
Go contribute to the project in question, go work with the people concerned... Then maybe you get to call them names. Raging from afar is pointless and childish, regardless of how easy it is to spit at a faceless organisation you have no real contact with.

I for one do not give a fat rat's behind about the "principles in place" or whether or not the lead developer is a [facist|furry|wears a gimp suit on sundays], I care about ability, technical merit, and whether or not a piece of software is a: solving the problem at hand, and b: copyleft licenced so it can be forked if needed.
If something looks interesting, I'll try it. If there aren't distro packages yet, I'll build it. If it's promising, I might even try to contribute to it. I'm not an accomplished C/C++ coder by any stretch, but you don't always need to be to contribute in a useful way - case in point, even building and testing on different platforms can be productive, assuming you report any bugs you find.

So, how's Xenocera working out for you on $distro_of_choice? Any problems getting the code built? Any bugs to report or technical suggestions to pass upstream?

Ed. Thought that might happen... While I'm still trying to solve a bunch of nonsensical GPU crashes (result: not Xlibre's fault, it's a power management bug in the amdgpu kernel driver), Stefan goes live with an Xlibre-git overlay for any clown to try it out.
This is why I've largely moved over to Gentoo, where the arguments are just a smoke-screen for sneakily getting stuff done.

Last edited by steve_v (2025-06-21 14:20:56)

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#1 2025-06-16 01:53:45

GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#2 2025-06-16 06:10:13

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#3 2025-06-16 09:28:10

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#4 2025-06-16 11:16:52

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#5 2025-06-16 19:24:49

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#6 2025-06-16 20:51:52

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#7 2025-06-17 03:53:29

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#8 2025-06-17 11:55:12

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#9 2025-06-17 15:20:08

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#10 2025-06-17 17:05:02

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#11 2025-06-17 22:02:33

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#12 2025-06-18 09:46:43

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#13 2025-06-18 12:30:38

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#14 2025-06-19 14:15:13

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#15 2025-06-20 03:35:58

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#16 2025-06-20 03:42:36

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#17 2025-06-20 04:20:16

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#18 2025-06-20 04:24:07

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#19 2025-06-20 22:36:24

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#20 2025-06-21 00:35:34

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#21 2025-06-21 00:53:52

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#22 2025-06-21 01:04:56

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#23 2025-06-21 01:08:27

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#24 2025-06-21 12:27:48

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

#25 2025-06-21 13:57:46

Re: GNOME is taking the scum bag approach still...

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