Is wayland the new systemd ?

recklessswing · 2022-04-15 17:57:41

Will it be something we hate as much as systemd? Just curious. Sorry if this was asked before. Is it as bad as systemd or worse? By the way, why don't we fork systemd instead? Let's just remove unneccessary parts. Can't we do that?

Head_on_a_Stick · 2022-04-15 19:22:14

recklessswing wrote:

Will it be something we hate as much as systemd?

That really depends on why exactly you dislike systemd.

IMO Wayland is a vast improvement over X.

ralph.ronnquist · 2022-04-16 00:31:51

IMO Wayland is not at all an improvement over X.

E.g: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_( … land_and_X

I thought the language in that comparison is quite balanced although with a hint of the author(s) "favouring Wayland".

In my reading it makes the point that the functional overlap between Wayland and X11 is small, but generally they are ideas based on rather different understandings of the computational platform/architecture.

So I'm thinking that any competition between them would be more in whether and which of those understandings better serves the purpose of end users benefiting of FOSS, and that's a political rather than technical discussion.

EDX-0 · 2022-04-16 02:20:47

i generally disgree with the suckles devs on a matter of principle, but the wayland issue is one i will have to agree 100% with them, wayland is a mess, when even the suckless devs say it was too minimalist as a bad thing you know you done fuck up, and that is without mentioning the insistence on keeping everyone chained to rastered display and DPI, if wayland was done right everything that isn't a raster would be processed as vectors with rasterization as the last step and thus the concept of DPI would be rendered obsolete.

https://lists.suckless.org/dev/2109/34475.html

charliebrownau · 2022-04-16 04:13:27

It really seems that { Wayland } and {pipewire} are methods to remove any trace of old systems - Alsa/X/etc

I ran pipewire for a bit of Fedora for a while
they changed the back end for the media session
to their sh1t which I had to undo
https://www.joshwhotv.com/v/.QDIimA?cha … liebrownau

This is a DELBATE move by { THEM } to put the final centralisation and dependency all over Linux

Heck the Kernal seems to be heading towards so much bloat and pre included shovelwere ,
it might aswell be its own OS soon

What would stop them putting a SERVICE or program that talks to SOYD, KERNEL or SNAP Store
that checks if you have enough good boy social points and if you don't, you cant boot up ?

The creep never ends, it always gets worse
because people typically never have the strength, moral conviction or balls to say NO
and get rid of this infection from changing stuff ever again

I'm surprised that {Fedora} , {ubuntu} and various other distros
don't enforce online cloud accounts with gnome ui's
to log in like { Windows 8/10/11} enforcers

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czeekaj · 2022-04-16 05:53:53

I don't know enough to comment about the functionality. Well I haven't bothered to 'upgrade' to wayland.
However, X as it is now. As I still use it suffices. But I do realize any big security holes or oversight in X would be difficult to patch.
I am hopeful wayland will provide added security.

Now I can't say Xorg is terribly insecure. More so I have noticed I've only had issues when I am using say a Dell laptop. The news of SMM vulnerabilities on Dell systems does not surprise me in the slightest. Xorg works, and it's familiar. Now booting a minimal system, sure might take away some issues. But honestly the Meta packages that is xfce makes it difficult to trim it down and keep all the niceties

I had issues when booting into a X session, going to tty1 logging in as root. Coming back to the X session and seeing bounce keys or sticky keys is activated. I assume key logging. It's only happening to me on Dell systems, and due to it being such low level on the system I can only imagine automation and big 3 letter agencies at play. No issues of the sort on something running core boot or when I run a dell system further away from untrusted networks.

Now I hate to be that guy but the idea of an accessibility feature being leveraged for key logging doesn't sit well for me. But what does that have to do with Xorg? Why does Xorg have to pick up the slack for XFCEs mishaps and meta package bloat. Modularity and modability are great goals. I think X does a decent job and will continue to do a good job.

I think it comes down to user wants and needs. I do buy hardware based off of software. My first bare metal install was on a Dell laptop, now I do not want to repeat a purchase of a system that has questionable security under the hood. Devuan released under the pretense of Watching your first step. The rabbit hole does go pretty deep, down to the microcode, boot up, bios and uefi. I think we can all agree if you have a trusted execution at lower layers. IE Coreboot. You are better off. The average person doesn't care, and more fear mongering will only make you sound like a news reporter. But when it comes down to trust. I trust Xorg more then I trust Dell, Microsoft, or Google. Heck I trust systemd more then those 3. Hopefully wayland will become something people wont blink twice on installing. Maybe it can provide some functionality and no cost of security. As it stands now I don't think it's there yet.

Now this pipewire, concerns me. Why does pipewire need to deal with video? Oh containerized programs. right,
if snaps and flatpacks were not disruptive enough. What happened do one thing and do it well? Pipewire should of stuck to audio. It'll be a monolithic blob like systemd. Dangerous. That is the devil in the details to me. pipewire is trying to do too much and runs on the MIT license. Which is inferior to the GPL.

Camtaf · 2022-04-16 08:46:12

Xorg works, no need to change it.

Heck, even tinyX would work for most people, as most only use desktops/laptops, & don't need the extra network services built into Xorg.

Last edited by Camtaf (2022-04-16 08:48:07)

brocashelm · 2022-04-16 21:55:01

The amount of shilling for Wayland is preposterous, particularly by those who use distros without Systemd. I also think that D-Bus, Polkit (formerly PolicyKit), GVfs, Avahi, and PulseAudio being forced onto essential packages is every bit as bad. I remove what I can before ending up with a broken, unusable system (especially in D-Bus' case). Even things like Elogind are not what I desire, but it is what it is.

zapper · 2022-04-17 12:49:21

brocashelm wrote:

The amount of shilling for Wayland is preposterous, particularly by those who use distros without Systemd. I also think that D-Bus, Polkit (formerly PolicyKit), GVfs, Avahi, and PulseAudio being forced onto essential packages is every bit as bad. I remove what I can before ending up with a broken, unusable system (especially in D-Bus' case). Even things like Elogind are not what I desire, but it is what it is.

I can't speak for everyone, but I dislike the following;

dbus
systemd
pulseaudio
avahi
networkmanager
logind
polkit
pipewire
wayland
java
rust
pam
bloatware in general...

Hence why I usually don't use devuan and instead use Hyperbola which finally removed all this crud,

Actually, xorg and wayland while both being bad, have an alternative, its called xenocara.

The only problem being, the linux devs seem to be shrooming more and more with their designs.

I think microsoft, apple, google, etc are all indeed disasters and have evil intentions, but...

I honestly think redhat has changed the game even more...

I think its no longer EEE as a plan,

I think it is now, EETFC

Embrace
Extend
Take Full Control

I wouldn't be surprised if that is redhat's plan at this juncture... even more so with IBM being in the mix, aka owning redhat now...

Btw, if I recall correctly, xenocara already does a few things wayland does, regarding being a rootless xorg and in the case of OpenBSD, privledge separation..

I don't really get why people shill for anything redhat makes in general though.

There are alternatives that don't force crap down people's throats, ya know?

Besides, gnome3 and its forks are bloated beyond words, in fact the only desktop environment not bloated its lumina desktop.

But as always, I will use jwm, till I feel like there is something lighter that has the same feature set.

brocashelm · 2022-06-11 03:39:02

I thought I'd drop this blog post made by one of the Artix GNU/Linux developers who'd used Wayland in the last few years and realized it's an unstable, messy piece of software "managed" by totally irresponsible groups.

Wayland Isn't Going to Save The Linux Desktop
June 10, 2022
As you all know, the Linux desktop is dominated by Xorg. The X11 protocol originated in the 80s which later ended up being adopted by Linux desktop systems. It survived all the way to this day as Xorg, and I'm using it right now to make this post. While it is remarkable that X11 has survived so long, it's certainly not flawless. There's some questionable parts of the core protocol and old legacy baggage that is still carried to this day. Developers, unsurprisingly, wanted a fresh start from scratch free from all the legacy, dated decisions that X11 made. This is what led to the birth of Wayland, way back in 2008.
In recent years, Wayland's push to the Linux desktop space accelerated, and users could actually start using this "new" (not really new but...) protocol as their daily driver on the desktop. I, myself, was one of the early adopters in those days. The promise was a clean, lean protocol designed for modern systems that could handle all the complexities people expect in today's computing. The major GUI toolkits have all implemented Wayland support. There are several big name Wayland compositors. Other major applications like Firefox, Chromium, etc. support it now and have for years. So with all of these pieces in place, why aren't we all living in a glorious Wayland future? Sure, those guys on Nvidia may have some issues, but it should be smooth sailing for everyone else. Right?
...

Head_on_a_Stick · 2022-06-11 11:04:53

^ I can disable vsync in all my games under Wayland and have the framerate exceed the refresh rate. I can also screen capture with no problems. Those are the only concrete problems I can glean from that article and they're both now fixed.

Counter opinion from the original developer of wlroots (one of the three main Wayland compositors available):

Wayland Misconceptions Debunked

EDIT: and since when did having an opinion count as "shilling"? FFS...

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-06-11 11:06:04)

zapper · 2022-07-08 07:02:11

Actually, I think wayland is the sytemd of display protocols...

I should have said this before...

But yeah, I agree with that comment that the devo that blog made.

Unless corporations want their systems to get fried by every malevolent hacker under the sun...

Given the buggy nature, just overloading the system should be enough to crash it...

I highly doubt malevolent hackers couldn't break that.

I guess whoever made wayland can congratulate itself on making something as bad as systemd in stability...

meh...

auanta · 2022-08-06 14:42:31

https://itsfoss.com/hyperbola-linux-bsd/

@zapper You just saved me lots of time, omg, I didn't know Rust had trademark issues, I will have to rethink even learning Rust. Wayland I now see is a flop. And jwm looks beautiful, tinyx is cool. Hyperbola BSD?! I have to try it. I might have to get hardware that supports it... So glad that some smart people are carrying the flame.

I hope we can bring the accessibility apps with us.

Oh nice! Hyperbola has support for vision impaired users!

Last edited by auanta (2022-08-06 15:08:25)

zapper · 2022-10-15 03:59:56

the impaired ISOs, I think last I checked, were deprecated, due to a varying bunch of reasons:

Under a lot of stress
Maintaining the GNU version, till the first stable is out, possibly longer, so they are maintaining two different forms of infrastructure for two operating systems
I think the impaired ISO might also have some bad dependencies? I forget...

They are not against anyone willing to help develop tho, but time is also a factor.
Most development is being used to focus on HyperbolaBSD.

Small team
etc...

EDIT:

And those focused on the 0.4.2 Hyperbola GNU version, are already occupied alot.

But if you want to add the impaired support, I am sure they would accept help.

Unless, someone fixed it already. Not sure tho

Last edited by zapper (2022-10-15 04:17:31)

zapper · 2022-10-15 04:15:40

Btw, as a side note, xorg and wayland both have their flaws:

xorg, too big and bloated, but mostly works fine for most things

wayland an unstable mess that has too small of a protocol, but will probably get bloated down the road.

Two things can be true at the same time anyhow.

Both of these aren't very good, especially the replacement, which will likely make it even *harder* to escape systemd, dbus and all that other crap.

The solution?

I still think xenocara is a better move to make in my opinion, it has a lot better privilege separation then xorg and wayland, without being huge, broken and having way too many dependencies that will likely be impossible to remove.

That being said, its usually better not to trust the developer on their word alone, without having a varying of tests, by many people and then see verification.

Although, older hardware, will probably not work as well with it, which will matter to coreboot users and maybe people who disable intel me.

Actually, I used devuan at one point with kernel 5.19 on a coreboot device with intel me disabled the 5.19.89 linux-libre-lts one.

Strangely enough, tried using it on my X230 and T430i, after 30 minutes on each of them, it just freezes and you have to shut it down by force.

Weird stuff...

Did this with a usb installed image tho, as in it was installed on the usb.

Weird thing is, never had this problem before, till 5.19 kernel.

Point being, not sure what is going on, but be careful!

dcolburn · 2022-11-10 20:32:53

zapper wrote:

Hence why I usually don't use devuan and instead use Hyperbola which finally removed all this crud,
Actually, xorg and wayland while both being bad, have an alternative, its called xenocara.

I cannot find Hyperbola-BSD anywhere.

I do find Hyperbola-Linux.

Did the BSD version get canceled and they stayed with the Linux kernel after all?

GlennW · 2022-11-10 22:01:47

dcolburn wrote:

zapper wrote:
Hence why I usually don't use devuan and instead use Hyperbola which finally removed all this crud,
Actually, xorg and wayland while both being bad, have an alternative, its called xenocara.
I cannot find Hyperbola-BSD anywhere.
I do find Hyperbola-Linux.
Did the BSD version get canceled and they stayed with the Linux kernel after all?

I'm pretty sure I have test driven Hyperbol BSD...

I saw this just now... "The developers cite the Linux kernel's adoption of Digital Restrictions Management (DRM), use of the Rust programming language and forced adoption of features in common GNU/Linux components like PulseAudio and systemd as reasons for abandoning Linux and the ecosystem around it.

written by 윤채경 (Yoon Chae-kyung) 2012-12-24 - last edited 2019-12-26. © CC BY "
ref. https://linuxreviews.org/HyperBola_Linux_Ditches_Linux,_Goes_All-In_BSD

last edited 2019...

I like their direction... I've had FreeBSD-12.1 installed... but I ended up using proprietary drivers anyway and had kde5/Plasma looking and behaving the same as my Dev-1 system.

dcolburn · 2022-11-11 00:49:31

Maybe @zapper can clarify?

EDIT

It seems that Hyperbola-BSD may have become vaporware.

In any case it would seem, based on the difficulty in location anything recent, that support would be nearly non-existent.

Back to my other thread about a Devuan Raid1 install ...

Last edited by dcolburn (2022-11-12 19:50:41)

GlennW · 2022-11-13 08:58:13

https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:downloads

"en/project/downloads.txt · Last modified: 2022/08/02 23:22 by emulatorman"

Last edited by GlennW (2022-11-13 08:59:04)

dcolburn · 2022-11-13 13:00:00

GlennW wrote:

https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:downloads
"en/project/downloads.txt · Last modified: 2022/08/02 23:22 by emulatorman"

"Permission Denied
Sorry, you don't have enough rights to continue."

And, why is there no mention of Hyperbola-BSD on their Information or FAQ pages?

It's very weird ...

golinux · 2022-11-13 16:05:17

Didn't Hyperbola morph into Parabola. Or was it the other way around? This thought just from a vague memory . . .

dcolburn · 2022-11-13 17:45:33

golinux wrote:

Didn't Hyperbola morph into Parabola. Or was it the other way around? This thought just from a vague memory . . .

Looks like Parabola is an Arch-fork.

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=parabola

I think Hyperbola was similar, perhaps parallel.

This new thing is supposed to be a complete switch to BSD from Linux.

My thought was that BSD is somewhat unfamiliar to would-be hackers and might reduce the number of potential troublemakers for a server.

zapper · 2022-11-14 03:19:32

@dcolburn @golinux @glennW

Hmm.. not vaporware... no.

They are still working on it... thing is, the alpha iso itself isnt even out yet.

They could use some help lately... hence why I brought this up.

Actually, like the poster before me just said Parabola is an arch-fork.

However, Hyperbola was its own thing, a hard fork of arch linux with debian patches for stability privacy/security and long term support.

That being said, they could use donations and help in general right now, due to the lack of devs and help as a whole...

Luke the uxp developer, has been... away for the time being, related to some management issue that Hyperbola was willing to address, but... problem being, he isn't answering any email messages, so... yeah.

It is a truly unfortunate situation.

The good news, being, they are still trying to do so.

https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:manual:contrib:hyperbola_roadmap

They could move faster if they got more help, also... you could potentially make a fork of devuan off of it, for whatever purpose you wanted.

PS, wine no longer interests me... at all.

My reason for wanting a fork, would be to increase devs willing to help... and to get the stable iso finally finished.

That being said, help would be appreciated for them.

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#1 2022-04-15 17:57:41

Is wayland the new systemd ?

#2 2022-04-15 19:22:14

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#3 2022-04-16 00:31:51

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#4 2022-04-16 02:20:47

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#5 2022-04-16 04:13:27

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#6 2022-04-16 05:53:53

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#7 2022-04-16 08:46:12

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#8 2022-04-16 21:55:01

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#9 2022-04-17 12:49:21

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#10 2022-06-11 03:39:02

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#11 2022-06-11 11:04:53

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#12 2022-07-08 07:02:11

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#13 2022-08-06 14:42:31

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#14 2022-10-15 03:59:56

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#15 2022-10-15 04:15:40

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#16 2022-11-10 20:32:53

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#17 2022-11-10 22:01:47

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#18 2022-11-11 00:49:31

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#19 2022-11-13 08:58:13

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#20 2022-11-13 13:00:00

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#21 2022-11-13 16:05:17

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#22 2022-11-13 17:45:33

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

#23 2022-11-14 03:19:32

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

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