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#1 2022-04-15 17:57:41

recklessswing
Member
Registered: 2020-12-18
Posts: 21  

Is wayland the new systemd ?

Will it be something we hate as much as systemd? Just curious. Sorry if this was asked before. Is it as bad as systemd or worse? By the way, why don't we fork systemd instead? Let's just remove unneccessary parts. Can't we do that?

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#2 2022-04-15 19:22:14

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,436  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

recklessswing wrote:

Will it be something we hate as much as systemd?

That really depends on why exactly you dislike systemd.

IMO Wayland is a vast improvement over X.


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#3 2022-04-16 00:31:51

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 710  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

IMO Wayland is not at all an improvement over X.

E.g: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_( … land_and_X

I thought the language in that comparison is quite balanced although with a hint of the author(s) "favouring Wayland".

In my reading it makes the point that the functional overlap between Wayland and X11 is small, but generally they are ideas based on rather different understandings of the computational platform/architecture.

So I'm thinking that any competition between them would be more in whether and which of those understandings better serves the purpose of end users benefiting of FOSS, and that's a political rather than technical discussion.

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#4 2022-04-16 02:20:47

EDX-0
Member
Registered: 2020-12-12
Posts: 39  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

i generally disgree with the suckles devs on a matter of principle, but the wayland issue is one i will have to agree 100% with them, wayland is a mess, when even the suckless devs say it was too minimalist as a bad thing you know you done fuck up, and that is without mentioning the insistence on keeping everyone chained to rastered display and DPI, if wayland was done right everything that isn't a raster would be processed as vectors with rasterization as the last step and thus the concept of DPI would be rendered obsolete.

https://lists.suckless.org/dev/2109/34475.html


no life matters, no life ever will, for existing is not something to be proud of but grateful, only achievements matter.

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#5 2022-04-16 04:13:27

charliebrownau
Member
Registered: 2022-04-14
Posts: 46  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

It really seems that { Wayland } and {pipewire} are methods to remove any trace of old systems - Alsa/X/etc

I ran pipewire for a bit of Fedora for a while
they changed the back end for the media session
to their sh1t which I had to undo
https://www.joshwhotv.com/v/.QDIimA?cha … liebrownau


This is a DELBATE move by { THEM } to put the final centralisation and dependency all over Linux

Heck the Kernal seems to be heading towards so much bloat and pre included shovelwere ,
it might aswell be its own OS soon

What would stop them putting a SERVICE or program that talks to SOYD, KERNEL or SNAP Store
that checks if you have enough good boy social points and if you don't, you cant boot up ?

The creep never ends, it always gets worse
because people typically never have the strength, moral conviction or balls to say NO
and get rid of this infection from changing stuff ever again

I'm surprised that {Fedora} , {ubuntu} and various other distros
don't enforce online cloud accounts with gnome ui's
to log in like { Windows 8/10/11} enforcers



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#6 2022-04-16 05:53:53

czeekaj
Member
Registered: 2019-06-12
Posts: 76  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

I don't know enough to comment about the functionality. Well I haven't bothered to 'upgrade' to wayland.
However, X as it is now. As I still use it suffices. But I do realize any big security holes or oversight in X would be difficult to patch.
I am hopeful wayland will provide added security.

Now I can't say Xorg is terribly insecure. More so I have noticed I've only had issues when I am using say a Dell laptop. The news of SMM vulnerabilities on Dell systems does not surprise me in the slightest. Xorg works, and it's familiar. Now booting a minimal system, sure might take away some issues. But honestly the Meta packages that is xfce makes it difficult to trim it down and keep all the niceties

I had issues when booting into a X session, going to tty1 logging in as root. Coming back to the X session and seeing bounce keys or sticky keys is activated. I assume key logging. It's only happening to me on Dell systems, and due to it being such low level on the system I can only imagine automation and big 3 letter agencies at play. No issues of the sort on something running core boot or when I run a dell system further away from untrusted networks.

Now I hate to be that guy but the idea of an accessibility feature being leveraged for key logging doesn't sit well for me. But what does that have to do with Xorg? Why does Xorg have to pick up the slack for XFCEs mishaps and meta package bloat. Modularity and modability are great goals. I think X does a decent job and will continue to do a good job.

I think it comes down to user wants and needs. I do buy hardware based off of software. My first bare metal install was on a Dell laptop, now I do not want to repeat a purchase of a system that has questionable security under the hood. Devuan released under the pretense of Watching your first step. The rabbit hole does go pretty deep, down to the microcode, boot up, bios and uefi. I think we can all agree if you have a trusted execution at lower layers. IE Coreboot. You are better off. The average person doesn't care, and more fear mongering will only make you sound like a news reporter. But when it comes down to trust. I trust Xorg more then I trust Dell, Microsoft, or Google. Heck I trust systemd more then those 3. Hopefully wayland will become something people wont blink twice on installing. Maybe it can provide some functionality and no cost of security. As it stands now I don't think it's there yet.

Now this pipewire, concerns me. Why does pipewire need to deal with video? Oh containerized programs. right,
if snaps and flatpacks were not disruptive enough. What happened do one thing and do it well? Pipewire should of stuck to audio. It'll be a monolithic blob like systemd. Dangerous. That is the devil in the details to me. pipewire is trying to do too much and runs on the MIT license. Which is inferior to the GPL.

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#7 2022-04-16 08:46:12

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 194  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

Xorg works, no need to change it. wink

Heck, even tinyX would work for most people, as most only use desktops/laptops, & don't need the extra network services built into Xorg. smile

Last edited by Camtaf (2022-04-16 08:48:07)

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#8 2022-04-16 21:55:01

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 86  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

The amount of shilling for Wayland is preposterous, particularly by those who use distros without Systemd. I also think that D-Bus, Polkit (formerly PolicyKit), GVfs, Avahi, and PulseAudio being forced onto essential packages is every bit as bad. I remove what I can before ending up with a broken, unusable system (especially in D-Bus' case). Even things like Elogind are not what I desire, but it is what it is.


"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

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#9 2022-04-17 12:49:21

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 439  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

brocashelm wrote:

The amount of shilling for Wayland is preposterous, particularly by those who use distros without Systemd. I also think that D-Bus, Polkit (formerly PolicyKit), GVfs, Avahi, and PulseAudio being forced onto essential packages is every bit as bad. I remove what I can before ending up with a broken, unusable system (especially in D-Bus' case). Even things like Elogind are not what I desire, but it is what it is.

I can't speak for everyone, but I dislike the following;

dbus
systemd
pulseaudio
avahi
networkmanager
logind
polkit
pipewire
wayland
java
rust
pam
bloatware in general...

Hence why I usually don't use devuan and instead use Hyperbola which finally removed all this crud, wink

Actually, xorg and wayland while both being bad, have an alternative, its called xenocara. 

The only problem being, the linux devs seem to be shrooming more and more with their designs.

I think microsoft, apple, google, etc are all indeed disasters and have evil intentions, but...

I honestly think redhat has changed the game even more...

I think its no longer EEE as a plan,

I think it is now, EETFC

Embrace
Extend
Take Full Control

I wouldn't be surprised if that is redhat's plan at this juncture...  even more so with IBM being in the mix, aka owning redhat now...  sad

Btw,  if I recall correctly, xenocara already does a few things wayland does, regarding being a rootless xorg and in the case of OpenBSD, privledge separation..

I don't really get why people shill for anything redhat makes in general though.

There are alternatives that don't force crap down people's throats, ya know?

Besides, gnome3 and its forks are bloated beyond words, in fact the only desktop environment not bloated its lumina desktop.

But as always, I will use jwm, till I feel like there is something lighter that has the same feature set.  wink


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon!

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#10 2022-06-11 03:39:02

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 86  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

I thought I'd drop this blog post made by one of the Artix GNU/Linux developers who'd used Wayland in the last few years and realized it's an unstable, messy piece of software "managed" by totally irresponsible groups.

Wayland Isn't Going to Save The Linux Desktop
June 10, 2022

As you all know, the Linux desktop is dominated by Xorg. The X11 protocol originated in the 80s which later ended up being adopted by Linux desktop systems. It survived all the way to this day as Xorg, and I'm using it right now to make this post. While it is remarkable that X11 has survived so long, it's certainly not flawless. There's some questionable parts of the core protocol and old legacy baggage that is still carried to this day. Developers, unsurprisingly, wanted a fresh start from scratch free from all the legacy, dated decisions that X11 made. This is what led to the birth of Wayland, way back in 2008.

In recent years, Wayland's push to the Linux desktop space accelerated, and users could actually start using this "new" (not really new but...) protocol as their daily driver on the desktop. I, myself, was one of the early adopters in those days. The promise was a clean, lean protocol designed for modern systems that could handle all the complexities people expect in today's computing. The major GUI toolkits have all implemented Wayland support. There are several big name Wayland compositors. Other major applications like Firefox, Chromium, etc. support it now and have for years. So with all of these pieces in place, why aren't we all living in a glorious Wayland future? Sure, those guys on Nvidia may have some issues, but it should be smooth sailing for everyone else. Right?

...


"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

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#11 2022-06-11 11:04:53

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,436  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

^ I can disable vsync in all my games under Wayland and have the framerate exceed the refresh rate. I can also screen capture with no problems. Those are the only concrete problems I can glean from that article and they're both now fixed.

Counter opinion from the original developer of wlroots (one of the three main Wayland compositors available):

Wayland Misconceptions Debunked

EDIT: and since when did having an opinion count as "shilling"? FFS... roll

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-06-11 11:06:04)


To obtain a root shell use su -. Using just su will result in "command not found" messages.

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#12 2022-07-08 07:02:11

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 439  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

Actually, I think wayland is the sytemd of display protocols...

I  should have said this before...

But yeah, I agree with that comment that the  devo that blog made.

Unless corporations want their systems to get fried by every malevolent hacker under the sun...

Given the buggy nature, just overloading the system should be enough to crash it...

I highly doubt malevolent hackers couldn't break that.

I guess whoever made wayland can congratulate itself on making something as bad as systemd in stability...

meh...

wink


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon!

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#13 2022-08-06 14:42:31

auanta
Member
Registered: 2022-08-03
Posts: 42  

Re: Is wayland the new systemd ?

https://itsfoss.com/hyperbola-linux-bsd/

@zapper You just saved me lots of time, omg, I didn't know Rust had trademark issues, I will have to rethink even learning Rust. Wayland I now see is a flop. And jwm looks beautiful, tinyx is cool. Hyperbola BSD?! I have to try it. I might have to get hardware that supports it... So glad that some smart people are carrying the flame.

I hope we can bring the accessibility apps with us.

Oh nice! Hyperbola has support for vision impaired users!

Last edited by auanta (2022-08-06 15:08:25)


Devuan GNU/Linux, the sysadmin secret sauce
> "I use Hyperbola btw" my favorite BSD wink

Disclaimer: If I give you any technical advice, always double check it, because even though I used GNU/Linux many years, I'm still learning, just like you. I try to help, but I could be wrong! Empower yourself!

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