About installers

rations · 2026-02-17 01:30:10

@greenjeans Possibly, they tried installing on a new desktop and an old laptop. I did tell them this and to look in the bios for options to disable anything UEFI boot, secure boot. If you used something simple like calamares, with a good cleanup script all the crap it installs could be removed leaving vuudo just the way you intended it to be.

@fsmithred When I used refractasnapshot I had the user set to human and EFI enabled. When I used the live usb the user name and password were the same as the user name and password from the machine that took the snapshot. Starting calamares it always asked for user name and password and that was the one from the machine that took the snapshot. I tried getting the chat bots to make calamares start with out putting in a user name and password but it didn't work so I just moved on using the one from the machine that took the snapshot.

During the install process with the calamares gui I put in user name test and password 1234 and when booting into the installed system it logged in with test and 1234. I did not install any of these cracklib_runtime and reinstall libcrack2. I am not a dev but I'm sure you don't have to do this "I would need to rearrange the build process of the iso to do it the debian-live way". All i know is it works with what you already have.

Grub was the final hurdle I had before the installer finished with out error. If you look at the bootloader.conf I used it's in the tar file on sourceforge I will not post it here given the love for ai slop. But this worked. I would suggest looking at all the module files in refracta-calamares-setup/config/etc/calamares they follow what the calamares source code says. When I boot the installed system I get a blue screen with the Devuan logo Devuan GNU/Linux, Advanced options for Devuan GNU/Linux and booting in countdown.
.
You guys make great stuff and with windows 11 people are trying out your work and want to use it. If you want people to use your work try and think like them and not a dev

.Edit. I only checked the user name and password I used in the Calamares installer and the installed system logs in with both that and the user name and password from the machine that created the snapshot

Last edited by rations (2026-02-17 16:55:07)

steve_v · 2026-02-17 02:42:57

greenjeans wrote:

In the end it sounds like you're making an argument that Refracta-Installer needs a better GUI? While at the same time eschewing GUI's in general

My argument is (and always has been) that refracta-installer needs a consistent UI, with a real workflow that supports such elementary principles as going back a step or cleanly aborting an install.
Whether it's GUI, TUI, or CLI isn't the point, the point is that as it stands it's an incoherent mess of random dialogs and terminal windows with completely inconsistent behaviour and no mechanism for maintaining coherent state or running steps in anything but one narrow linear order.

For example: Most of the process is random yad dialogs, then suddenly up pops a terminal window with a TUI debconf prompt. If I abort that prompt, I expect an option to do it again, go back a step, or abort the install... But instead we're back to yad and the script continues with missing configuration as if nothing happened.

GUI or TUI, scripts and yad or debian tooling... Pick one and stick with it for the whole process.

Last edited by steve_v (2026-02-17 04:23:30)

rations · 2026-02-18 16:15:22

@fsmithred chat bots added removeuser.conf this removed the live user on the installed system and left only the user created using the installer. Chat bots also added a shell process to remove everything Calamares and refracta snap shot installed.

fsmithred · 2026-02-18 16:46:44

@rations:

Yesterday I tried again using your modules and configs instead of my minimally edited debian files. It works. (replaced the user with what was entered in the installer)

One point (not the only) that I'm confused about is grub. I changed one line in the bootloader module so that it would boot efi or bios, and I'm wondering how it does that. Is a network connection required for that to succeed? My iso has grub-efi-amd64 installed, but I did a bios install and it got grub-pc from somewhere. (either network or it found the deb package that I put in the root of the squashed filesystem)

I'm going to keep playing with this, but it's probably going to go slowly. I have too much other stuff to do. Thanks for this contribution. I now have less hate for calamares. Maybe there can eventually be a calamares-settings-devuan package.

Devarch · Yesterday 10:53:43

My argument is (and always has been) that refracta-installer needs a consistent UI

refracta-installer is half-garbage. No correct FDE support in 2026, seriously?! UI is not a problem here.

Last edited by Devarch (Yesterday 11:04:08)

greenjeans · Yesterday 15:07:54

refracta-installer is half-garbage.

Oh bullshit.

Starting to be amazed here at all the supposedly tech-savvy people who seem to need an installer app to hold their hands through the process.

rations · Yesterday 15:31:24

@fsmithred If you ran the install-packages.sh it has grub-pc included in it, if you didn't I'm not sure. I've finished with this now. It was good fun. I've added the updated tar file on sourceforge and there's a build-readme as well. https://sourceforge.net/projects/unoffi … box/files/

I set it up to use the username and password of the machine taking the snapshot. So for example I can setup a system the way I want with a username live password live (it uses place_holder for whatever anyone wants to use), install the required packages for refracta and calamares, then from refracta-calamares-setup run scripts/install-config.sh, then run scripts/build-iso.sh and it's all done.

Calamares removes itself once it's finished the installation from the live usb. I also configured calamares to keep home/$USER/.config and home/$USER/.local, this can be added to or removed.

Anyone can change the logo, images for slideshow, number of images used, name of the installer or iso etc. And again CHAT BOTS have been used to write the scripts.

Refracta snapshot made this really easy so thanks again.

fsmithred · Yesterday 16:34:50

FYI, refractainstaller had FDE before debian-installer did.

In my last build, I copied all of the user's home to /etc/skel and uncommented the appropriate line in the modules. It worked - it kept all the user configs and changed the user name.

And no, I didn't run the scripts. I'll have to try a no-network install to see what happens.

dzz · Yesterday 18:33:24

I'm confused about is grub. I changed one line in the bootloader module so that it would boot efi or bios, and I'm wondering how it does that. Is a network connection required for that to succeed? My iso has grub-efi-amd64 installed, but I did a bios install and it got grub-pc from somewhere. (either network or it found the deb package that I put in the root of the squashed filesystem)

Am I missing something, or are not all the required grub files in the grub2-common and grub*-bin packages (which can all co-exist on efi or bios systems)?

The currently-running laptop here is bios only.. grub-efi is a dummy, grub-pc is absent and I don't see why grub-efi-amd64 is of any use:

$ dpkg -l|grep grub
ii  grub-common                            2.06-13+deb12u1                         amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader (common files)
ii  grub-efi                               2.06-13+deb12u1                         amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader, version 2 (dummy package)
ii  grub-efi-amd64                         2.06-13+deb12u1                         amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader, version 2 (EFI-AMD64 version)
ii  grub-efi-amd64-bin                     2.06-13+deb12u1                         amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader, version 2 (EFI-AMD64 modules)
ii  grub-efi-ia32-bin                      2.06-13+deb12u1                         amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader, version 2 (EFI-IA32 modules)
ii  grub-pc-bin                            2.06-13+deb12u1                         amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader, version 2 (PC/BIOS modules)
ii  grub2-common                           2.06-13+deb12u1                         amd64        GRand Unified Bootloader (common files for version 2)

$ dpkg -S /usr/sbin/grub-install
grub2-common: /usr/sbin/grub-install

$ dpkg -S /usr/sbin/update-grub
grub2-common: /usr/sbin/update-grub

Last edited by dzz (Yesterday 18:36:57)

fsmithred · Yesterday 18:48:08

I thought you need to have the right package, grub-pc or grub-efi-amd64 to install the bootloader correctly, so I always make sure I have the right one before any grub-install happens. Two days ago, I did a bios install with grub-efi-amd64 installed and I rebooted to a grub rescue prompt. But that was with a misconfigured calamares, so maybe it doesn't count.

Looking at the files that grub-efi-amd64 provides, I have no idea what it does. Looks like nothing. The script gathers information for a bug report.

$ apt-file list grub-efi-amd64
grub-efi-amd64: /usr/share/bug/grub-efi-amd64/presubj
grub-efi-amd64: /usr/share/bug/grub-efi-amd64/script
grub-efi-amd64: /usr/share/doc/grub-efi-amd64

dzz · Yesterday 19:07:54

I did a bios install with grub-efi-amd64 installed and I rebooted to a grub rescue prompt

Maybe grub-pc-bin was absent? It doesn't conflict.

Last edited by dzz (Yesterday 19:09:01)

fsmithred · Yesterday 19:16:52

grub-pc-bin was there. I normally include that and even the ia32-bin package, just in case someone needs it. (old macbook pro)

Devarch · Today 15:16:02

FYI, refractainstaller had FDE before debian-installer did.

I suppose the keyword is "had" no "has". Now the only way to get FDE with refracta-installer is to chroot and to repair. Yes, it HAD, I've used it those times, but it's over.

mweishaar · Today 19:39:41

Starting to be amazed here at all the supposedly tech-savvy people who seem to need an installer app to hold their hands through the process.

Last time I ran the Devuan installer it was on ASCII. I'm on Excaliber now, dist-upgrade works just fine for me. Not sure how being able to run a CLI or a GUI for an install makes you any more or less tech-savvy. I've had only Linux on my machine since '98, and I think I'm starting to get the hang of it.

I'm shocked about how much people care about the installer, as long as it works you should just get on with using your system. Unless of course you're an admin, have to manage many machines, or just like doing installs all the time.

My 18 year old just switched to Linux last year, and he decided he wanted to install Arch because he would "learn more about how Linux works". Good for him - but I guarantee you he doesn't know much more than before he installed it. He hasn't broken it yet, so he has some learning opportunities ahead of him.

greenjeans · Today 20:49:39

Page 2 reminder that I did NOT start this thread, that was somebody else who moved a comment I made, I had zero intentions of starting a thread about installers. So my position simple boils down to this:

1. Don't like the debian installer at all
2. Sick of hearing people bash RefractaInstaller, it's simply the best and fastest way to do an install.

I'm shocked about how much people care about the installer, as long as it works you should just get on with using your system. Unless of course you're an admin, have to manage many machines, or just like doing installs all the time.

That's just it, I do installs constantly, I have to do so for testing purposes on the iso's I make. It's no exaggeration to say i've done easily 300 or better in the last year, so perhaps that will give some context to my position. Think about the time needed to do a debian install vs. the 10 minutes it takes with RI, then times that by 300 and that's how many extra hours of my life i've saved by using it.

Time is precious. I only have so much to spare.

fsmithred · Today 22:04:05

Devarch, you are mistaken. I did not remove support for FDE. You have to check a box (in the gui version) or say 'yes' (in the cli version) to encrypt the root partition. If /boot is in that partition, the installer will add the appropriate line to /etc/default/grub.

You might look at the Help in the installer or the readme in /usr/share/doc/refractainstaller-base. You only need to read four short lines to get to the answer.

STARTING REFRACTA INSTALLER  (9.5.x)

*** NEW in 9.4 ***

- UEFI and BIOS installers have been merged (both gui and cli scripts)

- Installer supports gpt disk with bios boot. (special partition needed)

- Installer supports full-disk encryption (no separate /boot partition)

Note: If you want to get into playing with chroot and doing some manual tasks, you can use the cli installer to do lvm or raid installs, which aren't overtly supported in refractainstaller.

Note2: If you want to tell me that it's not proper to have /boot inside the root partition, you'll need to explain why. The reason for having it outside the encrypted partition all these years was so the bootloader could find the kernel. Well, now grub can find it in an encrypted partition.

pcalvert · Today 22:06:55

greenjeans wrote:

1. Don't like the debian installer at all

Neither do it. What I very much dislike about the Debian installer is that it does a bit and then stops to wait for more input, does a bit and then stops to wait for more input, does a bit and then stops to wait for more input, and so on. And that means that I have to babysit the thing instead of answering a bunch of questions at the beginning, clicking OK, and then walking away to do something else. It wastes my time. There are other things I dislike about it, but that is the main one.

Mercury · Today 22:51:41

The particular thing that annoys me is that I can't enable the online repos without a working internet connection at install time. I can get the wifi working after it's all installed but during setup I have no internet, so it throws a tantrum saying it can't set up the mirrors. Then I have to complete the install and manually add them to my sources.list. It doesn't even have the decency to leave them in as commented lines, it just gives me a worthless apt setup to fix myself.

It's like a toddler without object permanence. "If I can't see it, it doesn't exist." How about you just do what I say and enable them?

Last edited by Mercury (Today 23:37:39)

ralph.ronnquist · Today 23:02:13

I really would like people to put just a little bit of thought into how their posts may reflect on them, before posting.

Mercury · Today 23:42:04

I really would like people to put just a little bit of thought into how their software may reflect on them, before publishing it.

I assume you were obliquely referring to my comment, ralph.ronnquist, so I removed what is probably the part you found most objectionable.

But I have spent a great deal of my life trying to be polite and diplomatic, and I'm now at the age where I think a lot of the world's problems are caused by stupid people not being properly told they're being stupid. To that end, I've grown very fond of Linus Torvalds' occasional rants about "brain damage" in software, because that's what it is, and it needs to be called out. Politeness implies acceptance or at least tolerance, and stupid decisions should be greeted with neither.

Stupid decisions are stupid.

Last edited by Mercury (Today 23:44:51)

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#26 2026-02-17 01:30:10

Re: About installers

#27 2026-02-17 02:42:57

Re: About installers

#28 2026-02-18 16:15:22

Re: About installers

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Re: About installers

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