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#1 2023-09-03 19:33:34

mweishaar
Member
Registered: 2018-11-11
Posts: 29  

Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

I only follow Debian releases so I know when my next Devuan upgrade it on deck. smile

When Debian 12 was released, I read through the release notes/wiki and saw it's possible to install a different init system. So downloaded it and installed it in a kvm, once with the default, and once with sysvinit. Both ran fine.

I've been on Devuan since ASCII and just upgraded to Daedalus, so I don't have any plans or reason to go to Debian. But if they weren't able to support other inits before, how can they now? I thought it was going be a massive effort to support more than one init system.

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#2 2023-09-03 19:56:30

alexkemp
Member
Registered: 2018-05-14
Posts: 235  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

First signs of the wall breaking.

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#3 2023-09-03 20:22:48

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,987  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

alexkemp wrote:

First signs of the wall breaking.

Or false-flag bait . . .

Don't think that Devuan is likely to be lured back into the fold . . .

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#4 2023-09-05 11:10:34

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,298  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

Hello:

mweishaar wrote:

When Debian 12 was released, I read through the release notes/wiki and saw it's possible to install a different init system.

In my opinion, it was just pour la galerie, so to speak. ie: an effort to, in the early stages of the systemd takeover, appease those who voiced their dissent.

But ...
Debian with another init?
Please ...

There was some more smoke and mirrors FUD from a self described Debian insider sometime ago but it was just that.

Sorry to be the one to break the news to you but that is definitely *not* in Debian's plans.
Deprecating SystemV support was the last step in that direction.

lwn.net/Articles wrote:

"Support for System V service scripts is now deprecated and will be removed in a future release. Please make sure to update your software
*now* [1] to include a native systemd unit file instead of a legacy System V script to retain compatibility with future systemd releases."

[1] the asterisks are not mine, they are in the original.

The inevitable result will be that in a very short time there will be no SystemV compatible packages in the Debian repositories as devs/maintainers will not include init scripts for a deprecated init in their packages, something that will inevitably extend to all Debian based distributions using systemd.

I've said it many times before: there is a lot of moolah behind making systemd the de-facto init for the Linux ecosystem.
systemd is nothing but a MS registry for Linux and the main purpose is to turn Linux into a MS type OS, with all that such a thing implies.

Like a poster at The Register once said with respect to systemd:

"... it is nothing but a developer sanctioned virus running inside the OS, constantly changing and going deeper and deeper into the host with every iteration and as a result, progressively putting an end to the possibility of knowing/controlling what is going on inside your box as it becomes more and more obscure."

But there's nothing new at hand: it is the old MS embrace, extend, and extinguish that has been going on for decades, only that now there's active and quite visible participation from IBM/RH and last but not least Microsoft, corporation that that went from labelling Linux a cancer to wanting to become best friends with it while everyone smiled and said "how nice of them to do so".

Devuan (and derivatives) is still holding on but who knows for how long this will be so.

Best,

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2023-09-05 11:13:05)

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#5 2023-09-05 16:48:35

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 382  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

AntiX & MX Linux developers have been supplying Debian systemd free distros since the original debacle. smile

I did hint that they might like to use Devuan instead, but they stuck with Debian, so, yes, it can be done. wink

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#6 2023-09-05 20:56:48

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,298  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

Hello:

Camtaf wrote:

AntiX & MX Linux developers have been ...
... so, yes, it can be done.

I beg to differ.
If it could be done, Devuan would not exist as an OS, it would be a (maybe) complex script or collection of linked scripts.

You and I are referring to two very different things:

1. installing Debian (as it comes out of the box) without systemd.
2. installing Devuan or AntiX/MX via what their respective developers/maintainers do.

If you are installing Debian you do not have a choice of inits.
And if you want to weed it out after installing Debian, you cannot.

Please read the post at the provided link and the ensuing thread, it is explained albeit I don't know if correctly / thoroughly enough.
Once I realised what it was about, I stopped reading.

I don't know exactly what AntiX/MX developers/maintainers do, so I cannot compare.
But I more or less know what Devuan developers/maintainers do*:

Devuan developers/maintainers use sysvinit and then sanitize any Debian packages that need systemd so that they will work without it.

And if they cannot be sanitized, they are blacklisted/banned from the Devuan repositories which, to all extent and purposes, are exactly the same as the Debian repositories albeit without the banned packages.

In short: Devuan is Debian without systemd.

That's about it, so my contribution to this thread (useful or not) ends here. 8^)

Best,

A.

* corrections encouraged and welcomed.

Last edited by Altoid (2023-09-05 20:58:05)

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#7 2023-09-05 21:09:06

pcalvert
Member
Registered: 2017-05-15
Posts: 151  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

Camtaf wrote:

AntiX & MX Linux developers have been supplying Debian systemd free distros since the original debacle. smile

I did hint that they might like to use Devuan instead, but they stuck with Debian, so, yes, it can be done. wink

I looked at antiX not so long ago. I forget when, but it was within the last several years. And when I did, it was clear to me that they are using some packages from Devuan.

Here is one quick example:

Format: 3.0 (quilt)
Source: policykit-1
Binary: policykit-1, policykit-1-doc, gir1.2-polkit-1.0, libpolkit-agent-1-0, libpolkit-agent-1-dev, libpolkit-gobject-1-0, libpolkit-gobject-1-dev, libpolkit-gobject-consolekit-1-0, libpolkit-gobject-consolekit-1-dev, libpolkit-gobject-elogind-1-0, libpolkit-gobject-elogind-1-dev
Architecture: any all
Version: 0.105-31.0nosystemd3
Origin: Devuan
Maintainer: Devuan Dev Team <devuan-dev@lists.dyne.org>
Uploaders: Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com>, Dimitri Puzin <max@psycast.de>, Daniel Reurich <daniel@centurion.net.nz>, Mark Hindley <mark@hindley.org.uk>
Homepage: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/polkit/
Standards-Version: 4.5.0
Vcs-Browser: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/policykit-1/
Vcs-Git: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/policykit-1.git
Testsuite: autopkgtest
Build-Depends: dbus <!nocheck>, debhelper-compat (= 12), gobject-introspection (>= 0.9.12-4~), gtk-doc-tools, intltool (>= 0.40.0), libexpat1-dev, libgirepository1.0-dev (>= 0.9.12), libglib2.0-dev (>= 2.28.0), libglib2.0-doc, libgtk-3-doc, libpam0g-dev, libselinux1-dev [linux-any], libelogind-dev [linux-any], pkg-config, xsltproc
Package-List:
 gir1.2-polkit-1.0 deb introspection optional arch=any
 libpolkit-agent-1-0 deb libs optional arch=any
 libpolkit-agent-1-dev deb libdevel optional arch=any
 libpolkit-gobject-1-0 deb oldlibs optional arch=all
 libpolkit-gobject-1-dev deb oldlibs optional arch=all
 libpolkit-gobject-consolekit-1-0 deb libs optional arch=any
 libpolkit-gobject-consolekit-1-dev deb libdevel optional arch=any
 libpolkit-gobject-elogind-1-0 deb libs optional arch=any
 libpolkit-gobject-elogind-1-dev deb libdevel optional arch=any
 policykit-1 deb admin optional arch=linux-any
 policykit-1-doc deb doc optional arch=all
Checksums-Sha1:
 53d56484a5bffb0aaf645c8d813b3063e01e8423 1431080 policykit-1_0.105.orig.tar.gz
 f149eb562acc449182c0c5e4394e72ad635c4d27 83144 policykit-1_0.105-31.0nosystemd3.debian.tar.xz
Checksums-Sha256:
 8fdc7cc8ba4750fcce1a4db9daa759c12afebc7901237e1c993c38f08985e1df 1431080 policykit-1_0.105.orig.tar.gz
 e0d18d5ab59d94157aea4f3665cedeb091a9173d2b558242e01bcbe917c3044c 83144 policykit-1_0.105-31.0nosystemd3.debian.tar.xz
Files:
 9c29e1b6c214f0bd6f1d4ee303dfaed9 1431080 policykit-1_0.105.orig.tar.gz
 eecb14d72cdd7c8e7b7b2a26a0c609f1 83144 policykit-1_0.105-31.0nosystemd3.debian.tar.xz

Source:
http://repo.antixlinux.com/bookworm/poo … stemd3.dsc


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#8 2023-09-05 22:15:18

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,987  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

anticapilatista was somewhat active on this forum for a while.

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#9 2023-09-05 23:23:54

mweishaar
Member
Registered: 2018-11-11
Posts: 29  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

Altoid wrote:

Hello:

If you are installing Debian you do not have a choice of inits.
And if you want to weed it out after installing Debian, you cannot.

This is simply not true. Look at my first message in this thread. I installed Debian 12 in a kvm with sysvinit.
You can read how here: https://wiki.debian.org/Init
I got this to work with the text installer after not being able to get to a terminal from the Calamares installer.

PkChg4M.png

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#10 2023-09-06 00:14:27

hunter0one
Member
Registered: 2021-12-31
Posts: 64  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

Until Debian has an ISO that come with multiple init systems and a menu to select the one you want I'll stick with Devuan. Also good luck removing systemd if you decide to change init systems after.

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#11 2023-09-06 01:50:38

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 1,053  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

Yes, it's not very easy, but possible, to install from the Debian ISO with network backing a system that does not include any package with systemd in its name. Though to also get rid of the systemd-udev program I had to add daedalus into sources.list so as to install eudev.

Basically to succeed in it, you need to know how to configure apt and how to navigate the installer beneath its dialogue flow. Even so, it brings some comfort about the state of Debian packages.

It's not a race or competition, but (sadly) Devuan still needs to remain as way of offering it as an easier task for people to stay assured that the systemd infestation is kept away from their computers.

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#12 2023-09-06 09:30:58

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 382  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

Devuan is the original 'Debian', the developers were part of the Debian community, until the debacle of systemd - I used to run AntiX, but decided to change over to Devuan, as they were certain to not add systemd, & so here I am today..... smile

Last edited by Camtaf (2023-09-06 09:32:08)

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#13 2023-09-06 19:08:23

Devarch
Member
Registered: 2022-10-03
Posts: 62  

Re: Question for devs... Debian 12 can be installed without systemd

mweishaar wrote:

... So downloaded it and installed it in a kvm, once with the default, and once with sysvinit. Both ran fine.

Yes, you can do it. I did it. But... they do not care about compatibility. If some package requires systemd you can not use it. Ex. You can not install gnome from debian repo without systemd.

Last edited by Devarch (2023-09-06 19:09:02)

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