My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

einpoklum · 2021-07-21 21:54:39

(This is part of a series of posts following my installation of Devuan Chimaera; for more information see the first post).

When logging into my user (created during installation) the first time, I'm offered several options for the "Default Window Manager" for LXQt. I should have the option to cancel - e.g. so as to be able to choose another desktop environment - but I don't!

(Next post in the series: Issue #3)

Last edited by einpoklum (2021-07-22 19:16:43)

fsmithred · 2021-07-21 22:06:41

I'm guessing there's more than one desktop environment installed, so the system wants to know which one you prefer. We need to know what you chose and what actually got installed. Then we can untangle the dependencies.

einpoklum · 2021-07-23 22:02:02

The system does not want to know which desktop environment I prefer; it is asking which window manager I prefer for LXQt. But regardless - I should be able to say: "Wait wait, I don't want to face this choice now let me just go back to where I was before".

fsmithred · 2021-07-24 11:47:34

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=30847#p30847

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-07-30 17:40:39

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/LXQt#U … ow_manager

einpoklum · 2021-07-30 18:43:38

@Head_on_a_Stick can you be a little more explicit? fsmithred posted a link only because he(?) made a single reply on two threads. With your link - I'm not sure what exactly you're telling me, plus it's off-site.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-07-30 19:54:26

The default window manager for LXQt is openbox. If you want something else then my link explains how to change that.

einpoklum · 2021-07-30 19:57:47

@Head_on_a_Stick: Openbox is fine. Another choice would also be fine. The issue here is that if somehow the window manager selection dialog has been opened, you can't abort/cancel, that's all. Also, I can manage - but it shouldn't be the case that every Devuan Chimaera user (who has selected a few desktop environments with tasksel), logging in the first time, gets stuck in this dialog.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-07-30 20:02:22

einpoklum wrote:

The issue here is that if somehow the window manager selection dialog has been opened, you can't abort/cancel, that's all.

My apologies, I should have read your OP more carefully. Have you raised this issue with the LXQt developers? I don't think Devuan can do much about that sort of thing.

einpoklum · 2021-07-30 20:06:29

Are you sure that the "culprit" here is lxqt upstream? More specifically, are you saying that I shouldn't even reportbug against the lxqt package?

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-07-30 20:13:48

einpoklum wrote:

Are you sure that the "culprit" here is lxqt upstream?

Not sure, no, but if there is a problem with the initial login to the desktop then that sounds like an upstream bug rather than a packaging bug. Devuan chimaera is still close enough to the bleeding edge for upstream bug reports to be appropriate.

einpoklum wrote:

More specifically, are you saying that I shouldn't even reportbug against the lxqt package?

That's just a metapackage.

fsmithred · 2021-07-31 16:39:34

Here's a screenshot of the window in question.
https://transfer.sh/rg1/Screenshot_lxqt-first.png

The default window manager for lxqt is currently xfwm. Muffin is there because cinnamon was also installed. This window comes up on the first login to lxqt. I don't recall seeing it in a system that had only lxqt installed. In that case, I assume there was only one window manager installed, so there was no need to ask.

The only way "back" would be to kill the desktop that's in the middle of loading itself and restart the display manager to log into one of the other desktops. It's probably easier and safer to just press ENTER, let it load, and then log out. As it says on the screen, the choice can be changed later.

einpoklum · 2021-07-31 17:30:34

The only way "back" would be to kill the desktop that's in the middle of loading itself and restart the display manager to log into one of the other desktops.

I had actually assumed that window comes up before the session starts. But even with this being the case, then, yes, you should be able to abort, restart the display manager and reconsider your options. Maybe you want to log in as a different user? Choose a different display environment? Change some language or accessibility settings? Or just ask some other person to come help you? You should have that choice.

... that is, if you get that window at all. If a default WM were to be chosen, it would be a different matter.

andyprough · 2021-07-31 19:12:59

einpoklum wrote:

The only way "back" would be to kill the desktop that's in the middle of loading itself and restart the display manager to log into one of the other desktops.
I had actually assumed that window comes up before the session starts. But even with this being the case, then, yes, you should be able to abort, restart the display manager and reconsider your options. Maybe you want to log in as a different user? Choose a different display environment? Change some language or accessibility settings? Or just ask some other person to come help you? You should have that choice.
... that is, if you get that window at all. If a default WM were to be chosen, it would be a different matter.

Too many complicated choices - it would overwhelm the average user.

einpoklum · 2021-07-31 20:21:30

Too many complicated choices - it would overwhelm the average user.

The user should not be offered any of these choices. Just a "Cancel" button in addition to "Ok". Or, as suggested in this post - no dialog at all, and just a login into the default window manager.

It is not reasonable to force a first-time user to make a selection in a dialog they do not expect, between items they don't recognize, without an option to get cold feet and say "cancel".

andyprough · 2021-08-01 03:28:23

einpoklum wrote:

Too many complicated choices - it would overwhelm the average user.
The user should not be offered any of these choices. Just a "Cancel" button in addition to "Ok". Or, as suggested in this post - no dialog at all, and just a login into the default window manager.
It is not reasonable to force a first-time user to make a selection in a dialog they do not expect, between items they don't recognize, without an option to get cold feet and say "cancel".

Too bad there isn't such a thing as a "respin" of Devuan that someone like yourself could make that would fix all the problems that they perceive. And too bad that we don't have a specialized Devuan tool called "refracta" to make that respin with. And too bad that we don't have a special part of the forum where people can share and talk about their respins. That would be great if someone like you could do something like that. But unfortunately that's just not possible so your only option is to sit here in the Installation Help forum and complain about all the things that are wrong. Such a sad dilemma.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-08-01 09:07:31

einpoklum wrote:

... that is, if you get that window at all. If a default WM were to be chosen, it would be a different matter.

I'm pretty sure that dialogue is only displayed because you had more than one compatible window manager installed. If you had just selected LXQt alone then only one window manager would have been installed so you probably wouldn't have seen the question. Feel free to confirm or deny this empirically :-)

EDIT: at any rate there isn't anything Devuan can do about this quirk of the LXQt login system (IMO).

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2021-08-01 09:09:06)

einpoklum · 2021-08-01 19:22:01

I'm pretty sure that dialogue is only displayed because you had more than one compatible window manager installed.

Oh, yes, for sure. But it is not some clever hacker's trick to select a few more items on the tasksel list. What I'm saying is that it's not enough that newbie-friendly behavior be exhibited when following the most common path through the installer (e.g. not change almost anything on the task selection dialog); it should be exhibited for every path through the installer which a reasonable person performing the installation may follow.

golinux · 2021-08-01 19:43:08

That would depend on the definition of "reasonable person". Installing multiple desktops with a distribution that strives for simplicity and doing one thing and doing it well seems like a user/distro mismatch to me.

einpoklum · 2021-08-01 20:48:20

golinux wrote:

That would depend on the definition of "reasonable person". Installing multiple desktops with a distribution that strives for simplicity and doing one thing and doing it well seems like a user/distro mismatch to me.

Which distribution strives for simplicity? Debian? Don't know how you figure that, considering the immense number of packages in the main repository.

Also, the user gets the tasksel dialog. In that dialog s/he is offered to select multiple items. There is no cue - visual, auditory, textual - that there's any problem with selecting multiple items. If doing so is considered unreasonable, there would have been radio buttons for the different desktop environments. So, that's one argument for reasonableness.

The other argument is that the person installing does not know which desktop environment the user will prefer. And - it could be more than one user, each with a different preference (e.g. one who is accustomed to Lubuntu with LXQt, and another that's accustomed to Mint with Cinnamon). That's a second argument why it is reasonable to select multiple DEs.

A final reason for this selection is wanting to make available apps originating in the different DEs to users of all DEs.

golinux · 2021-08-01 21:45:05

If you go to a smorgasbord and eat everything offered, indigestion and an "interesting" night are likely to follow. A distro shouldn't be required to nanny users lacking reasonable self-control and the foreseeable consequences of over-indulging.

einpoklum · 2021-08-01 22:05:34

If you go to a smorgasbord and eat everything offered

1. It's enough to select 2 items to achieve this effect; that does not count as "eating everything offered".

2. There was no lack of self control in the scenarios I mentioned

3. The point of a "Cancel" button is to cater to the user which has not exerted sufficient control or good sense in the first place, and selected something that, in hindsight, they should not have.

golinux · 2021-08-01 22:12:44

Seems you know exactly what the problem is so feel free to write a patch(s) that season the soup exactly as you like and submit it upstream. I think this thread has run its course. Continuing to argue your points here is a fruitless endeavor.

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#1 2021-07-21 21:54:39

My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#2 2021-07-21 22:06:41

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#3 2021-07-23 22:02:02

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#4 2021-07-24 11:47:34

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#5 2021-07-30 17:40:39

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#6 2021-07-30 18:43:38

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#7 2021-07-30 19:54:26

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#8 2021-07-30 19:57:47

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#9 2021-07-30 20:02:22

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#10 2021-07-30 20:06:29

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#11 2021-07-30 20:13:48

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#12 2021-07-31 16:39:34

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#13 2021-07-31 17:30:34

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#14 2021-07-31 19:12:59

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#15 2021-07-31 20:21:30

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#16 2021-08-01 03:28:23

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#17 2021-08-01 09:07:31

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#18 2021-08-01 19:22:01

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#19 2021-08-01 19:43:08

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#20 2021-08-01 20:48:20

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#21 2021-08-01 21:45:05

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#22 2021-08-01 22:05:34

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

#23 2021-08-01 22:12:44

Re: My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice

Board footer