As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

PedroReina · 2021-02-25 10:04:59

brocashelm wrote:

It actually aims for KISS philosophy as much as possible without the pretentious "minimalism" crap.

Absolutly agreed. When I decided (long time ago) to pick Debian as my distro, I compared it with some others big players. Debian was, IMHO, the best hands down. Now, it is the time for Devuan to keep that spirit rolling.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-02-25 14:42:34

dice wrote:

I still dont understand what is going on with debians runit as i get the below output to check dbus and lightdm sv status ?

See https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=27300#p27300

Morty · 2021-02-25 16:43:59

golinux wrote:

Morty . . . did you actually read daseins post? A lucid analysis of the first GR vote.

yes i read it and agree with him. There was no real debate. And back in the day people didnt get informed about what sysd would turn into once they accept it. It was more like political Propaganda. We used sysvinit for many years and never had problems with it. All of the sudden it was not good enough anymore... lol

TBH i dont care anymore about the noise. The Majority of Distros just accepted it. I just try to build a technically solid, secure and minimalist system without sysd for myself. Also without PulseAudio whenever it is possible. Would be happy if i can do this again with debian. Otherwise i stick with Devuan or Antix.

golinux · 2021-02-25 23:45:59

Morty wrote:

But from a technical standpoint alone: Is there still any technical advantage over debian 11? What are the reasons to keep Devuan when Debian has the same features?

Morty wrote:

there is also this mysterious package called "orphan-sysvinit-scripts" which seems like a substitute for some sysd packages. Not sure on that one. https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/or … it-scripts

On one hand, Debian presents the appearance of offering additional init options while at the same time, the sysvinit scripts needed to use those alternate inits are being randomly removed from Debian packages by maintainers as the second GR allows. The "orphan-sysvinit-scripts" collects those discarded scripts so those (now broken) packages will still work with alternate inits. Debian also does not allow alternate inits to be chosen during installation. Devuan filters systemd dependent packages that will not work properly with alternate inits. I can't imagine that Debian has any of those safeguards in place. IOW, to me, Debian's inclusion of alternate inits appears to be more window dressing than a viable and well-supported solution and one that is designed to fail.

sgage · 2021-02-26 00:26:08

golinux wrote:

Morty wrote:
But from a technical standpoint alone: Is there still any technical advantage over debian 11? What are the reasons to keep Devuan when Debian has the same features?
Morty wrote:
there is also this mysterious package called "orphan-sysvinit-scripts" which seems like a substitute for some sysd packages. Not sure on that one. https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/or … it-scripts
On one hand, Debian presents the appearance of offering additional init options while at the same time, the sysvinit scripts needed to use those alternate inits are being randomly removed from Debian packages by maintainers as the second GR allows. The "orphan-sysvinit-scripts" collects those discarded scripts so those (now broken) packages will still work with alternate inits. Debian also does not allow alternate inits to be chosen during installation. Devuan filters systemd dependent packages that will not work properly with alternate inits. I can't imagine that Debian has any of those safeguards in place. IOW, to me, Debian's inclusion of alternate inits appears to be more window dressing than a viable and well-supported solution and one that is designed to fail.

golinux, that is exactly my take on it. When you can make a Debian install and seamlessly select, say, sysvinit, I'll maybe reconsider, as well as being very surprised.

As for that reddit sh*t-show, what a joke! The opening line was basically 'Devuan is defunct. They tried and failed'. What idiocy! I stopped reading after a couple of screenfuls. It was know-nothings spewing about stuff that they, er, know nothing about. Whatever Debian decides to do or not do, LONG LIVE DEVUAN!

dice · 2021-02-26 04:13:52

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

dice wrote:
I still dont understand what is going on with debians runit as i get the below output to check dbus and lightdm sv status ?
See https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=27300#p27300

Thanks.

EDX-0 · 2021-03-04 17:29:06

There will always be, as long as systemd is the "default" other init systems on debian will be an after tought and the experience will be rough around the edges, also if you need more recent packages than what stable offers then devuan will be the superior option, devuan ceres will have fixes and patches for nosystemd operation faster than debian sid will, so as a result if some update to some package with a dependency on a systemd component breaks nosystemd usage you will be stuck with a brocken package on debian while you wait for the patch to be upstreamed from devuan, meanwhile on devuan ceres the breaking update won't be pushed until the patch works, and you can be sure the patch will hit devuan faster than it will debian.

tl;dr for those of us that do unstable debian makes no sense at all.

ruenoak · 2021-03-08 23:44:00

Systemd is here to stay I think we all understand this.
For me the bigger and more tragic outcome of the Systemd controversy was the split in the communities and the rift of miss trust that grew. I’ve wondered how easy will it be to mend.
I would like to see it mend, I am a huge advocate of working together to improve and move forward for a better future in everything.

I’m not a developer so I don’t begin to understand the resource intensiveness of maintaining multiple init systems and adding to that it seems that certain groups seem to be going out of there way to develop their software to not work with anything else other than Systemd which is unfortunate.

My hope was to see Debian and Devuan work closer together sharing resources building upon each others strengths and becoming, I guess you could say the beacons of the free and open software philosophy. Where one may be Systemd focused and the other alternate init systems.

Camtaf · 2021-03-10 10:54:14

Debians decision to use systemd split the Linux community - I don't think the split can be repaired - I, personally, keep an eye on BSD, because I don't like the way Systemd works by amalgamating everything together like Windows Registry - one of the reasons I quit using Windows as soon as I could learn to use unix like O/Ses.

I do still use AntiX, because it is non systemd & easy to install, but it is getting messy, with all the unnecessary bits being introduced into the menu system - I am looking for an alternative - I have tried MIYO in the past, presently have standard 'live' Devuan installed on most of my computers, but it is somewhat 'heavy' in programs, not my personal choices, so not sure if I will continue to use it, but I know that I, personally, won't be going back to Debian.

ruenoak · 2021-03-11 04:05:44

Camtaf wrote:

Debians decision to use systemd split the Linux community - I don't think the split can be repaired - I, personally, keep an eye on BSD, because I don't like the way Systemd works by amalgamating everything together like Windows Registry - one of the reasons I quit using Windows as soon as I could learn to use unix like O/Ses.

I understand where you are coming from but I am optimistic, and I like to think that communities will come together for common good and put differences aside. It's in my nature i guess.

presently have standard 'live' Devuan installed on most of my computers, but it is somewhat 'heavy' in programs, not my personal choices, so not sure if I will continue to use it, but I know that I, personally, won't be going back to Debian.

I guess if it is too heavy with unwanted applications you could go with the net install or advanced and choose what applications you want during install.

If you are looking for a minimal system you could try Devuan Minimal-Live, be warned through, it is what it says, Minimal, no xorg or desktop. I have it installed on my old Pentium III laptop it runs like a charm

yeti · 2021-03-11 06:39:30

Camtaf wrote:

Debians decision to use systemd split the Linux community - I don't think the split can be repaired - I, personally, keep an eye on BSD, because I don't like the way Systemd works by amalgamating everything together like Windows Registry - one of the reasons I quit using Windows as soon as I could learn to use unix like O/Ses.

A FreeBSDer's comments Systemd:
(linux.conf.au 2019) The Tragedy of systemd

——————————

TL;DW ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo&t=1654s

Last edited by yeti (2021-03-11 07:13:11)

kuleszdl · 2021-04-04 20:48:16

That's really great news and I highly appreciate the efforts and the collaboration that seems to enable running Debian with (at least) sysvinit again - though I have to admit that I didn't try this yet.

Assuming it becomes feasible to use Debian without systemd, I don't think it makes sense to use Devuan just for the mentioned political or "trust" reasons - at least not for me. Actually, by using Devuan you have to trust Debian as well as Devuan is pulling most binary packages from Debian - doesn't it?

If things really turn out for the better in Debian, wouldn't it become more practical to reduce Devuan to "just" a pure Debian-blend with alternative inits preconfigured and systemd-depdendent packages blacklisted?

Please don't get me wrong. I love Devuan and this community. Yet, I wonder if all the effort spent in running and maintaining an own infrastructure could not be better put into the actual work needed for init diversity? With this being said, I have to admit that the wounds from the community split will certainly not heal overnight. But as an end-user who wants to run Debian without systemd, I hope we are getting back on track.

golinux · 2021-04-04 21:13:54

@kuleszdl . . . Are you aware that Debian is currently involved in another GR which is political not technical? No way I would leave this haven of peace and sanity . . .

kuleszdl · 2021-04-04 21:33:43

@golinux No, but links/pointers are always appreciated.

golinux · 2021-04-04 22:01:43

@kuleszdl . . . so is a search engine.

sgage · 2021-04-05 00:07:42

kuleszdl wrote:

That's really great news and I highly appreciate the efforts and the collaboration that seems to enable running Debian with (at least) sysvinit again - though I have to admit that I didn't try this yet.
Assuming it becomes feasible to use Debian without systemd, I don't think it makes sense to use Devuan just for the mentioned political or "trust" reasons - at least not for me. Actually, by using Devuan you have to trust Debian as well as Devuan is pulling most binary packages from Debian - doesn't it?
If things really turn out for the better in Debian, wouldn't it become more practical to reduce Devuan to "just" a pure Debian-blend with alternative inits preconfigured and systemd-depdendent packages blacklisted?
Please don't get me wrong. I love Devuan and this community. Yet, I wonder if all the effort spent in running and maintaining an own infrastructure could not be better put into the actual work needed for init diversity? With this being said, I have to admit that the wounds from the community split will certainly not heal overnight. But as an end-user who wants to run Debian without systemd, I hope we are getting back on track.

"Yet, I wonder if all the effort spent in running and maintaining an own infrastructure could not be better put into the actual work needed for init diversity? "

That's more than a bit insulting, "actual work'. Just what do you think the Devuan team has been doing for the last years? Playing around 'running and maintaining its own infrastructure'? Do you think you just pop systemd out and pop sysvinit in? You do not seem to understand the full extent to which systemd insinuates itself, and the magnitude of the task of removing it.

If Debian were ever to offer a sysvinit option on installation (which I happen to believe will be never), it will be because of Devuan's work.

Last edited by sgage (2021-04-05 00:10:19)

snork · 2021-04-05 02:33:32

Morty wrote:

Is there any reason to stay on Devuan?

One of the answers to this question I have seen a few times is "trust" but I thought that an attempt to describe what that means might help. People who work on popular software or who manage popular digital services tend to accumulate some defacto power as a result of being part of something that is important to "more than just a few people". Google has accumulated significant power because a lot of people use their search engine [and apparently some other services]. Facebook has accumulated significant power because they decide what billions of users see every day. Ubuntu has accumulated significant power because it is [or at least has been] the first place many people turn to when they want to avoid Windows desktop platforms. As someone who wants to participate in digital communications I want to be able to trust that Google won't use my data and metadata in a way that I don't like, that Facebook won't run experiments to see if they can manipulate public opinion with their news feed, and that Ubuntu won't pump my keystrokes to Amazon.

Debian has accumulated significant power because it is often generally seen as being a stable and dependable distribution with the backing of a long digital history, a lot of experience, and a lot of talent. I assume this is why many distributions are based on Debian. I want to be able to trust that Debian will not make decisions that have a negative impact on the stability, security, privacy, and usefulness of my operating system. I, and I suspect others around here, feel that pushing systemd on users was a mistake... or at the very least that it could have been done more gracefully. It also should have been obvious to the people making the decision, that the effects would cascade down through many distributions (as well as existing installations) and that Debian's push for systemd could be seen as a sort of "stamp of approval" regarding init systems. I love to rant about "things that suck" and people frequently will get the impression that I am afraid of change. I am simply afraid of poorly planned change. I feel like systemd was poorly planned change.

Having said all that, even if subsequent Debian releases are expected to have a glorious, colourful, and even eccentric list of init systems to choose from, the damage is done. I'm not going to be quick to shuffle back to Debian because I can't trust that Debian won't create its own Unity-like desktop, or partner up with Amazon to sell me AWS resources, or drop apt in favour of puppy packaging system. Okay, all of those are pretty unlikely... but the point remains that I have trouble trusting the decision making process that allowed systemd the penetration it enjoys today.

golinux wrote:

Now I know why I don't hang out on reddit.

andyprough wrote:

I'm pretty shocked that a bunch of redditors got it all wrong. Shocked I tell you.

Sweet. :-)

Morty wrote:

But from a technical standpoint alone: Is there still any technical advantage over debian 11? What are the reasons to keep Devuan when Debian has the same features? Just trying to get some infos to make my decision.

I don't think there was ever a technical reason for me to change from Debian to Devuan... except maybe that it made some of my existing scripts a little happier. I have said more than once (offline) that I honestly feel like Devuan is perceivably faster than Debian... I'm pretty sure it isn't technically true, but it does feel like it at times. If it IS in fact faster I'm sure I'll hear about it soon though. :-)

The reason to make the switch [at least for me] is related to the term "free" meaning freedom rather than just a price tag of $0.00. I believe the Devuan project is more likely to produce decisions that respect my freedom than the Debian project. In all honesty, the difference may be negligible or may never affect me significantly, but it is like Joel McCrea said in the 1955 movie Wichita: "It's not a question of who's right, it's a question of what's right.".

EDX-0 wrote:

as long as systemd is the "default" other init systems on debian will be an after tought and the experience will be rough around the edges

Definitely! Like it or not, some people use Windows and I wind up supporting it for some of them. I tried to keep my father on XP as long as I could, but it was software that pushed his upgrade rather than the terrible security risk the upgrade fanboys were jabbering about. Eventually his accounting software stopped running on XP and he got his "upgrade". Similarly, I think that as long as systemd is the default, it will encourage developers to write for it, and maybe write for it exclusively. If you want to use one of their applications... then you may be forced to use systemd. I don't think I'd like to be stuck in that situation.

My 3¢.

jobbautista9 · 2021-04-05 07:19:15

As long as Debian maintainers are still encouraged to exclude sysv-compatible init scripts from their packages, I'm staying with Devuan.

The previous iwd maintainer refusing to add a sysv init script is the reason why I forked the iwd package for Devuan. 5 versions have passed and my init script still works fine. It doesn't need "dbus-activation" or whatever buzzword they are pushing for.

kuleszdl · 2021-04-05 14:00:42

@sgage I apologize if this sounded insulting to you - this was absolutely not my intention. I am aware that Devuan had (and has) good reasons to run and maintain its own infrastructure. The term "actual work" was directed towards work for systemd removal/init diversity and was meant in contrast to the infrastructure work. Yet, I never questioned that any of these was time-consuming. On the contrary, I rather wanted to express that I wished we could save some effort on the latter and direct it to the former category.

Last edited by kuleszdl (2021-04-05 14:25:49)

kuleszdl · 2021-04-08 16:14:27

For all who want to try it themselves, here is how I managed to get Debian 11 with sysvinit working:

- Install Debian testing using die DI3-alpha
- Edit sources.list and upgrade to unstable
- Install sysvinit and reboot (apt install sysvinit-core && reboot)
- Install your favorite desktop via tasks, e.g. for lxqt: apt install libpam-elogind dbus-x11 task-lxqt-desktop

I haven't tested this in depth, but the desktop seems to work so far.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2021-04-08 16:43:09

kuleszdl wrote:

- Edit sources.list and upgrade to unstable

Most seasoned De??an users would not consider that an "upgrade". I've had buster working with sysvinit, openrc-init & runit-init as PID1 so I'm sure they would also work with bullseye.

kuleszdl · 2021-04-08 17:52:19

@Head_on_a_Stick I did not mean "upgrading" from Devuan to Debian unstable but from Debian testing to Debian unstable.

MLEvD · 2021-04-30 17:34:36

My heart races with excitement

LMDE 5 Essie, with dual boot sysV(0) and systmD("1>1") confirmed?

Altoid · 2021-04-30 19:03:57

Hello:

golinux wrote:

... Debian's inclusion of alternate inits appears to be more window dressing than a viable and well-supported solution ...

Indeed.

https://forums.theregister.com/forum/al … e_spotted/

Thomas Claburn @theregister wrote:

The association with systemd, a widely used system and session manager for Linux, may have been chosen by the malware authors to make the malicious code less likely to be noticed by administrators reviewing logs and process lists.

May?

systemd is the ideal vector for all sorts of nastry stuff, it is just the LInux version of the registry in MSOSs
This new discovery is just a trial run, the next one or the one after that will probably not be noticed.

I can't believe that this can even be considered a subject to be discussed.
But then that's just my $0.02.

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2021-04-30 21:13:15)

GlennW · 2021-04-30 22:27:46

golinux wrote:

Now I know why I don't hang out on reddit.
Trust is a fragile thing and not easy to repair.
If you hang around here for a while maybe you will understand why Devuan is so special . . . or maybe not. It's about more than code . . .

I'm with you on this, it's more than about code.

Personally, I find this is a helpful and friendly community, I have grown to respect the posters here.

You still get all kinds of users, and I appreciate them all.

Even if it's just for the community, I'll be hanging around.

I guess the best that will come from Debian coming around will be the packaging and dependencies may be smoother to transition to Devuan.

Devuan artwork is better too, less corporate looking, imho.

I'm grateful, thank you.

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#26 2021-02-25 10:04:59

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#50 2021-04-30 22:27:46

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