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#1 2021-02-24 05:57:34

Morty
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From: Germany
Registered: 2021-02-24
Posts: 8  

As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan (init diversity). Is there any reason to stay on Devuan?

Hi everybody!

Seems like Devuan was sucessful and Debian 11 (Bullseye) will be released with runit and SysV, probably even with OpenRC. Together with a few shim-packages to avoid the installation of systemd dependencies. Debian 11 is now in testing and can be used without systemd or its libraries.

I was wondering if there is any reason to stick with Devuan when Debian 11 is released. Did i miss something? Is there still a reason to use Devuan instead of Debian 11?


Background info: We had a pretty interesting conversation on reddit about this topic. see here:
Reddit Debian Sub
I wanted to hear your opinions on this.

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#2 2021-02-24 06:43:10

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,244  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Now I know why I don't hang out on reddit.  big_smile 

Trust is a fragile thing and not easy to repair. 

If you hang around here for a while maybe you will understand why Devuan is so special . . . or maybe not.  It's about more than code . . .

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#3 2021-02-24 10:15:43

yeti
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From: I'm not here: U R halucinating
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 247  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

You may also need to install orphan-sysvinit-scripts for some compatibility.

YMMD!

I used Debian since its earliest days even before it had toy story names.

My relation with Debian now:

    Breaking trust can be done in a blink.
    Regaining it takes years.

Last edited by yeti (2021-02-24 10:16:21)


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#4 2021-02-24 12:27:13

Morty
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From: Germany
Registered: 2021-02-24
Posts: 8  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

golinux wrote:

Now I know why I don't hang out on reddit.  big_smile 

Trust is a fragile thing and not easy to repair. 

If you hang around here for a while maybe you will understand why Devuan is so special . . . or maybe not.  It's about more than code . . .

yes sadly the reddit community was/is always heavily biased towards a pro-systemd view. As Debian opens the door to other init systems these opinions will hopefully change. Thanks to you Devuan community. I appreciate that.

I also dont think the debian votings regarding systemd were fair and many users got mistreated for their opinion in the linux communites. It always felt like a political thing to me. Like a powergrab.

But from a technical standpoint alone: Is there still any technical advantage over debian 11? What are the reasons to keep Devuan when Debian has the same features? Just trying to get some infos to make my decision.

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#5 2021-02-24 12:37:49

Morty
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2021-02-24
Posts: 8  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

yeti wrote:

You may also need to install orphan-sysvinit-scripts for some compatibility.

YMMD!

I used Debian since its earliest days even before it had toy story names.

My relation with Debian now:

    Breaking trust can be done in a blink.
    Regaining it takes years.

So its "only" for personal reasons now? There is no technical reason left?

I know we have been hurt a lot in the linux communities the last 5-10 years. And it gets personal very fast. But it seems like we have won for now. Building up the trust again will take a while.

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#6 2021-02-24 12:53:44

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 284  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Morty wrote:
yeti wrote:

You may also need to install orphan-sysvinit-scripts for some compatibility.

YMMD!

I used Debian since its earliest days even before it had toy story names.

My relation with Debian now:

    Breaking trust can be done in a blink.
    Regaining it takes years.

So its "only" for personal reasons now? There is no technical reason left?

I know we have been hurt a lot in the linux communities the last 5-10 years. And it gets personal very fast. But it seems like we have won for now. Building up the trust again will take a while.

" But it seems like we have won for now."

The two operative phrases in this sentence are 'it seems' and 'for now'. TBH, I don't believe there's been any change of heart at Debian, and if an 'official' sysvinit version of Debian is released, I'll bet it turns out to be half-assed - rough edges, need for fiddling and workarounds, some things just not working, etc.

So for me, it's NOT 'only' for personal reasons - though those reasons remain important. I simply do not trust Debian to do as technically good a job as Devuan. It will be a sloppy afterthought, grudgingly offered.

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#7 2021-02-24 14:08:34

bgstack15
Member
Registered: 2018-02-04
Posts: 200  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

I can see how Debian might choose some level of sanity by providing support for sysvinit again, but the heavy lifting of making that possible would have been done in a separate environment (i.e., Devuan). It's clear that such maintenance and support wouldn't happen within the Debian world directly.


This space intentionally left blank.

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#8 2021-02-24 14:25:58

dice
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Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 559  
Website

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

I believe the biggest difference between devuan and debian as it stands now is that devuan does not depend on systemd shims? These other inits that debian may be supporting still rely on systemd shims afaik?

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#9 2021-02-24 16:06:43

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,654  
Website

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Morty wrote:

Debian 11 (Bullseye) will be released with runit and SysV, probably even with OpenRC. Together with a few shim-packages to avoid the installation of systemd dependencies.

The runit-init package has been removed from the dependency list for the init metapackage in Debian bullseye so technically only systemd and sysvinit are supported. It is possible to use runit-init or openrc-init as PID1 though.

AFAIK there are no "shim-packages to avoid the installation of systemd dependencies", not sure where you're getting that from. Perhaps provide a citation?

dice wrote:

These other inits that debian may be supporting still rely on systemd shims afaik?

No.


antifa ftw!

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#10 2021-02-24 16:11:31

Morty
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2021-02-24
Posts: 8  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

dice wrote:

I believe the biggest difference between devuan and debian as it stands now is that devuan does not depend on systemd shims? These other inits that debian may be supporting still rely on systemd shims afaik?

afaik devuan also uses stubs/shims to resolve unmet systemd dependencies (see This Thread from a Devuan-user). I am not very knowledgeable on this topic. Maybe somebody here can give us some insights how big the differences are between devuan and deb 11?

Last edited by Morty (2021-02-24 16:12:05)

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#11 2021-02-24 16:14:31

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 284  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Morty wrote:

Debian 11 (Bullseye) will be released with runit and SysV, probably even with OpenRC. Together with a few shim-packages to avoid the installation of systemd dependencies.

The runit-init package has been removed from the dependency list for the init metapackage in Debian bullseye so technically only systemd and sysvinit are supported. It is possible to use runit-init or openrc-init as PID1 though.

AFAIK there are no "shim-packages to avoid the installation of systemd dependencies", not sure where you're getting that from. Perhaps provide a citation?

dice wrote:

These other inits that debian may be supporting still rely on systemd shims afaik?

No.

HoaS, do you know if sysv be will be offered as an option in the bullseye installer?

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#12 2021-02-24 16:21:04

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,654  
Website

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

I know it's an option for live-build but I don't think it will be in the installer.

Try the alpha3 ISO image for bullseye and report back, that should be pretty close to the release version.


antifa ftw!

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#13 2021-02-24 16:27:57

andyprough
Member
Registered: 2019-10-19
Posts: 76  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

I know it's an option for live-build but I don't think it will be in the installer.

Try the alpha3 ISO image for bullseye and report back, that should be pretty close to the release version.

I'm pretty shocked that a bunch of redditors got it all wrong. Shocked I tell you.


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#14 2021-02-24 16:32:02

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 284  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

I know it's an option for live-build but I don't think it will be in the installer.

Try the alpha3 ISO image for bullseye and report back, that should be pretty close to the release version.

I will do that.

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#15 2021-02-24 16:43:49

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 512  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Beginning of February I downloaded a current Bullseye netinstall image and installed it in VBox. Can't remember that I got an init choice like in Devuan.

rolfie

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#16 2021-02-24 16:45:34

Morty
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2021-02-24
Posts: 8  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

AFAIK there are no "shim-packages to avoid the installation of systemd dependencies", not sure where you're getting that from. Perhaps provide a citation?

i got it from these reddit users
https://old.reddit.com/r/debian/comment … t/gnjulzf/
https://old.reddit.com/r/debian/comment … t/gnmpgxy/
https://old.reddit.com/r/debian/comment … t/gnmp75t/

His detailed answer with instructions (seems like its based on the "libsystemd0" shim-package): https://old.reddit.com/r/debian/comment … d/ewdsjrq/

there is also this mysterious package called "orphan-sysvinit-scripts" which seems like a substitute for some sysd packages. Not sure on that one. https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/or … it-scripts

Last edited by Morty (2021-02-24 16:52:58)

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#17 2021-02-24 16:55:55

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,654  
Website

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

There used to be a systemd-shim package for the pre-buster versions: https://packages.debian.org/stretch/systemd-shim

That has now been dropped but it isn't needed to run sysvinit, runit-init or openrc-init as PID1 in Debian. MX Linux is using a version of it to allow for co-installation of both systemd and sysvinit-core.

I suppose elogind could be described as a "shim" package, that allows for non-systemd inits to be used in systems that require logind compliance (ie, most desktop environments). The elogind package is only available in Debian thanks to the efforts of the Devuan developers.


antifa ftw!

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#18 2021-02-24 17:52:47

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 284  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Sadly, the alpha 3 iso does not have an option for selecting the init system.

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#19 2021-02-24 18:28:38

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 849  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Hello:

Morty wrote:

Is there any reason to stay on Devuan?

Yes, there are many reasons.
The first: trust
The second: basic common  sense

All the other reasons follow these first two.
And like golinux wrote: It's about more than code.

But the question (if there has to be one at all) should be:

Is there any reason not to stay on Devuan?
And the answer is: none whatsoever.

As always, YMMV.
It's just my $0.02

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2021-02-24 18:31:47)

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#20 2021-02-24 19:43:05

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,244  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Morty wrote:

yes sadly the reddit community was/is always heavily biased towards a pro-systemd view. As Debian opens the door to other init systems these opinions will hopefully change. Thanks to you Devuan community. I appreciate that.

My negative response to that thread was not about the pro-systemd bias. That kind of useless yammering is not an environment in which I want to swim.  A complete waste of time.

Morty wrote:

I also dont think the debian votings regarding systemd were fair and many users got mistreated for their opinion in the linux communites. It always felt like a political thing to me. Like a powergrab.

That is an understatement.  I think you might not have been around when all that went down so please educate yourself: Combatting Revisionist History

Morty wrote:

But from a technical standpoint alone: Is there still any technical advantage over debian 11? What are the reasons to keep Devuan when Debian has the same features? Just trying to get some infos to make my decision.

Yes. We have an amazing team that actually collaborates and solves problems collaboratively with egos left at the door.

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#21 2021-02-24 22:52:18

Morty
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2021-02-24
Posts: 8  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

golinux wrote:

That is an understatement.  I think you might not have been around when all that went down so please educate yourself: Combatting Revisionist History

oh i am using debian stable and derivatives for over 10 years now and was around when the first "debates" started. My Linux journey started with Ubuntu around 2006. One couldnt overhear these endless dispute pro and contra init-freedom. Just writing about init-alternatives would get us pushed out of linux-communities or downvoted to hell. There is so much bitterness until today that i just dont care anymore.

I can see where these trust issues come from. But i also see that there is some positive progression in this regard. Things are slowly moving in the right direction.

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#22 2021-02-24 23:21:13

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,244  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Morty . . . did you actually read daseins post?  A lucid analysis of the first GR vote.

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#23 2021-02-25 00:50:36

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 311  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

golinux wrote:

Now I know why I don't hang out on reddit.  big_smile 

Trust is a fragile thing and not easy to repair. 

If you hang around here for a while maybe you will understand why Devuan is so special . . . or maybe not.  It's about more than code . . .

Yeah, reddit has quite a bit of systemd loving trolls and people who like new technologies regardless of how insecure or freedom restricting they really are.

Even in the linux community there...


And yes, Devuan has standards that make sense. Debian is moving away from that.

If I added Arch to this mix, I would say they are not K.I.S.S friendly anymore.

Systemd goes against keep it simple stupid logic and stability as well.  So, Debian and Arch both have some hypocrites in charge eh...


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#24 2021-02-25 02:19:15

dice
Member
Registered: 2020-11-22
Posts: 559  
Website

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Morty wrote:

Debian 11 (Bullseye) will be released with runit and SysV, probably even with OpenRC. Together with a few shim-packages to avoid the installation of systemd dependencies.

The runit-init package has been removed from the dependency list for the init metapackage in Debian bullseye so technically only systemd and sysvinit are supported. It is possible to use runit-init or openrc-init as PID1 though.

AFAIK there are no "shim-packages to avoid the installation of systemd dependencies", not sure where you're getting that from. Perhaps provide a citation?

dice wrote:

These other inits that debian may be supporting still rely on systemd shims afaik?

No.

Okay maybe i should have said transitional packages like runit-systemd, not really a shim just a dummy package?
Edit: thats wrong, seem like runit-systemd is only used to start runit supervision via systemd

how does one use runit-init on debian, like get the services run scripts to work when absent of systemd and sysvinit.

Void linux is easy as

# ln -s /etc/sv/NetworkManager /var/service/

With debian i cant seem to find the service files for networkmanager (and yes i have a debian testing system working with runit-init but network manager not up).

Is it still too early for this under debian and maybe i would need to create the init script myself?

Edit: managed to get network manager going with the help of this page here: https://kchard.github.io/runit-quickstart/

I still dont understand what is going on with debians runit as i get the below output to check dbus and lightdm sv status ?

$ sudo sv status dbus
fail: dbus: unable to change to service directory: file does not exist

sudo sv status lightdm
fail: lightdm: unable to change to service directory: file does not exist

pstree =

~$ pstree
runit─┬─ModemManager───2*[{ModemManager}]
      ├─NetworkManager───2*[{NetworkManager}]
      ├─at-spi-bus-laun─┬─dbus-daemon
      │                 └─3*[{at-spi-bus-laun}]
      ├─at-spi-bus-laun───3*[{at-spi-bus-laun}]
      ├─at-spi2-registr───2*[{at-spi2-registr}]
      ├─avahi-daemon───avahi-daemon
      ├─colord───2*[{colord}]
      ├─cron
      ├─3*[dbus-daemon]
      ├─2*[dbus-launch]
      ├─dconf-service───2*[{dconf-service}]
      ├─elogind-daemon
      ├─gnome-keyring-d───3*[{gnome-keyring-d}]
      ├─gnome-keyring-d───2*[{gnome-keyring-d}]
      ├─gpg-agent
      ├─gvfs-udisks2-vo───3*[{gvfs-udisks2-vo}]
      ├─gvfsd─┬─gvfsd-trash───2*[{gvfsd-trash}]
      │       └─2*[{gvfsd}]
      ├─gvfsd-metadata───2*[{gvfsd-metadata}]
      ├─lightdm─┬─Xorg───9*[{Xorg}]
      │         ├─lightdm─┬─xfce4-session─┬─Thunar───2*[{Thunar}]
      │         │         │               ├─applet.py
      │         │         │               ├─light-locker───3*[{light-locker}]
      │         │         │               ├─nm-applet───3*[{nm-applet}]
      │         │         │               ├─polkit-gnome-au───2*[{polkit-gnome-au}]
      │         │         │               ├─ssh-agent
      │         │         │               ├─xfce4-notifyd───2*[{xfce4-notifyd}]
      │         │         │               ├─xfce4-panel─┬─panel-10-notifi───2*[{panel-10-notifi}]
      │         │         │               │             ├─panel-14-action───2*[{panel-14-action}]
      │         │         │               │             ├─panel-6-systray───2*[{panel-6-systray}]
      │         │         │               │             ├─panel-8-pulseau───2*[{panel-8-pulseau}]
      │         │         │               │             ├─panel-9-power-m───2*[{panel-9-power-m}]
      │         │         │               │             └─2*[{xfce4-panel}]
      │         │         │               ├─xfce4-power-man───2*[{xfce4-power-man}]
      │         │         │               ├─xfdesktop───2*[{xfdesktop}]
      │         │         │               ├─xfsettingsd───2*[{xfsettingsd}]
      │         │         │               ├─xfwm4───6*[{xfwm4}]
      │         │         │               ├─xiccd───2*[{xiccd}]
      │         │         │               └─2*[{xfce4-session}]
      │         │         └─2*[{lightdm}]
      │         └─2*[{lightdm}]
      ├─packagekitd───2*[{packagekitd}]
      ├─polkitd───2*[{polkitd}]
      ├─pulseaudio───2*[{pulseaudio}]
      ├─rsyslogd───3*[{rsyslogd}]
      ├─rtkit-daemon───2*[{rtkit-daemon}]
      ├─runsvdir─┬─6*[runsv───fgetty]
      │          └─runsv───NetworkManager
      ├─saned───saned
      ├─systemd-udevd
      ├─udisksd───4*[{udisksd}]
      ├─upowerd───2*[{upowerd}]
      ├─wpa_supplicant
      ├─x-www-browser─┬─Privileged Cont───24*[{Privileged Cont}]
      │               ├─2*[Web Content───24*[{Web Content}]]
      │               ├─Web Content───17*[{Web Content}]
      │               ├─WebExtensions───22*[{WebExtensions}]
      │               └─63*[{x-www-browser}]
      ├─xfce4-terminal─┬─bash───pstree
      │                └─2*[{xfce4-terminal}]
      └─xfconfd───2*[{xfconfd}]

Last edited by dice (2021-02-25 04:28:52)

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#25 2021-02-25 05:32:06

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 74  

Re: As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan. Is there any reason to stay on De

Even so, no reason for me to stop using Devuan. You can't always trust Debian today with their upstream decisions, because you know they're going to fuck something up tomorrow. They're still too heavily influenced by Red Hat, Canonical, and GNOME garbage, and direct pushers of Wayland. Just because you can change your init this time around doesn't mean they're not corrupt anymore. It's a deception.

Devuan is more than just another "Systemd protest" distro. It actually aims for KISS philosophy as much as possible without the pretentious "minimalism" crap. It's everything that Debian should have been for the longest time. The fact that a fork had this much influence says a lot.

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