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#1 2021-01-28 01:13:33

mckaygerhard
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Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
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devuan and LTS

Debian has now an LTS project that provides for companies and stable production deploys prominence and time to leaders of deploys to property migrate their artifacts..

currently Devuan does not have a well up to date security follows of the Debian security project.. and Devuan as i know still are only 5 years of support,, Debian has 3+2 + ExLTS in a total of 7 years..

My issue here is that Devuan must be more flexible with packagin and more attent with artifacts.. currently i noted that is more easy to provide help to debian (noted courier packagin in last month) rather in Devuan.

In almost any of the places if i pust a very very hard criticims.. is taken as an attack.. of course .. if the work is bad must be pointed.. and i always provide the right solution.

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#2 2021-01-28 15:47:51

bgstack15
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Registered: 2018-02-04
Posts: 201  

Re: devuan and LTS

Wow, you find it easier to help Debian? I have not even collected the courage to try to go offer help on any packages in Debian. The amount of red tape I infer from all their vast documentation makes me unwilling to go offer my limited services in packaging up software that I want to package. I realize they have concerns about orphaned packages at some point in the future should I become unavailable.

I just started showing up to Devuan meetings and said I had some modifications to packages, and boom, they shoved some stuff at me and now I'm responsible for a few things!


This space intentionally left blank.

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#3 2021-01-29 02:59:33

mckaygerhard
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Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
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Re: devuan and LTS

bgstack15 wrote:

I just started showing up to Devuan meetings and said I had some modifications to packages, and boom, they shoved some stuff at me and now I'm responsible for a few things!

security updates are behind .. so where is that work?

riht now i not have a picture cos i answered wuickly.. but your response is "invalid .. it works for me"

i offered two times fixed some problems with utf8 and rusian languaje in devuan .. the errors still happened today! ..now i only use devuan for server due desktoip is only for hackers..

agains .. stop of "it works for me.. debian is evil" and start to work property, security updates for devuan are very very slow and security period time is very little (5 years only)

right now i publish some patches for courier .. but i do not noted that updates in devuan yet! (well maybe after this will be there.. but was on december)

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#4 2021-01-29 11:35:28

fsmithred
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,890  

Re: devuan and LTS

and Devuan as i know still are only 5 years of support,, Debian has 3+2 + ExLTS in a total of 7 years..

I've never heard of this before. Does Debian have a secret server for companies that want the extra two years of support? How does one go about getting that? Or is it only systemd that they support for the extra two years? That would explain why it's not in Devuan.

Do you even know how Devuan gets its packages? Have you heard of amprolla?

FYI: 99% of packages in the Devuan repository are not in the Devuan repository. When you understand that, you will have attained some level of enlightenment.

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#5 2021-01-29 12:59:41

mckaygerhard
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Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
Website

Re: devuan and LTS

fsmithred wrote:

and Devuan as i know still are only 5 years of support,, Debian has 3+2 + ExLTS in a total of 7 years..

I've never heard of this before. Does Debian have a secret server for companies that want the extra two years of support? How does one go about getting that? Or is it only systemd that they support for the extra two years? That would explain why it's not in Devuan.

Do you even know how Devuan gets its packages? Have you heard of amprolla?

FYI: 99% of packages in the Devuan repository are not in the Devuan repository. When you understand that, you will have attained some level of enlightenment.


always people that does not know nothing: https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/Extended and https://wiki.debian.org/LTS

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#6 2021-01-29 13:27:46

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,890  

Re: devuan and LTS

Thanks. I wasn't aware that a private company is offering commercial support for Debian, but I'm not surprised by that. If someone wants to form a private company to offer extended support for Devuan users, they are welcome to do so. I don't think it's fair to fault the dozen or so devs we have for not doing that.

Extended Long Term Support (ELTS) is a commercial offering to further extend the lifetime of Debian releases (after the 5 years offered by the LTS project). It is not an official Debian project. Debian's infrastructure and other Debian resources are not involved.

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#7 2021-01-29 15:27:59

mckaygerhard
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Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
Website

Re: devuan and LTS

fsmithred wrote:

Thanks. I wasn't aware that a private company is offering commercial support for Debian, but I'm not surprised by that. If someone wants to form a private company to offer extended support for Devuan users, they are welcome to do so. I don't think it's fair to fault the dozen or so devs we have for not doing that.

Extended Long Term Support (ELTS) is a commercial offering to further extend the lifetime of Debian releases (after the 5 years offered by the LTS project). It is not an official Debian project. Debian's infrastructure and other Debian resources are not involved.

again talking without well knowed ! everybody can have free access to those security updates..  

i mean. this company pays for security suppor and you have freely access the work they paid for, their only benefit is stable long term usage and slow migration of the things.. practically just only does not say "works for me". hu you got it?  NOTE: of course only of those package they used.. by example server focused mostly

in fact devuan has less work cos just track security patches from debian.. so in fact debian are doing the mayor work..

I will illustrate the reason for this thread: let's say the courier package in debian is only a week old, the maintainer in devuan doesn't have to do all the work I did in december for a month (yeah i work for a month) but just reads the commits, and removes the systemd support, that's all... and that's all... this can be done in just two days... but it doesn't happen like that...

the only exception to that example are system packages like sysvinit or eloginid or very punctual things like network manager (that has problems and always block login related packages)

... but still if we talk about security patches this is practically add and go in 99% of the cases... not say "it works for me" or have more than 3 months of delays in patches for lilbrerias that have nothing to do with systemd.

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#8 2021-01-29 20:25:35

PedroReina
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From: Madrid, Spain
Registered: 2019-01-13
Posts: 190  
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Re: devuan and LTS

mckaygerhard wrote:

always people that does not know nothing:

mckaygerhard wrote:

again talking without well knowed !

Your wording is a bit rude for me. In this forum we are used to another kind of tone. Your information, on the other hand, is very valuable; thanks.

Last edited by PedroReina (2021-01-29 20:42:26)

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#9 2021-01-29 20:50:53

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,890  

Re: devuan and LTS

Pedro, you probably don't want to read this.

mckaygerhard wrote:

again talking without well knowed ! everybody can have free access to those security updates..

Either you don't know what you are talking about or you are deliberately spreading misinformation. I think it's the latter. You said that Debian offers 7 years of support. That is simply not true.

You don't know what goes on here. You just come by every now and then to throw shit on the project. Are you getting paid to do this? I don't have the time or desire to track down and identify all your alternate "facts". So I now have to assume that everything you say is false.

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#10 2021-01-29 21:24:04

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
Website

Re: devuan and LTS

PedroReina wrote:
mckaygerhard wrote:

always people that does not know nothing:

mckaygerhard wrote:

again talking without well knowed !

Your wording is a bit rude for me. In this forum we are used to another kind of tone. Your information, on the other hand, is very valuable; thanks.

right now i'm using Chimaera fron a upgrade,  for first time, its like testing right? foudn some things that are not confortable (well is development but let me xpalin)

in almost any daemon package seems dh_systemd seems was present:

# End automatically added section
# Automatically added by dh_systemd_enable/13.3.1
if [ "$1" = "configure" ] || [ "$1" = "abort-upgrade" ] || [ "$1" = "abort-deconfigure" ] |
| [ "$1" = "abort-remove" ] ; then
	# This will only remove masks created by d-s-h on package removal.
	deb-systemd-helper unmask

taking in consideration it comes from debian debhelper in debian are now 13 and seems autoload dh_systemd

on devuan the debhelper package must override the "auto_dh_systemd" and fil with empty section.. this is not a secret since ascii..

is an important detail .. well and a ugly way to solve .. but is nasty in so many package already in stable at debuan merged repository

Last edited by mckaygerhard (2021-01-29 21:39:04)

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#11 2021-01-29 21:45:44

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 313  

Re: devuan and LTS

fsmithred wrote:

Pedro, you probably don't want to read this.

mckaygerhard wrote:

again talking without well knowed ! everybody can have free access to those security updates..

Either you don't know what you are talking about or you are deliberately spreading misinformation. I think it's the latter. You said that Debian offers 7 years of support. That is simply not true.

You don't know what goes on here. You just come by every now and then to throw shit on the project. Are you getting paid to do this? I don't have the time or desire to track down and identify all your alternate "facts". So I now have to assume that everything you say is false.

He means Extended Term Support, but yeah... he is kind of full of it.

Trolls are usually more fun if they are NOT hating or NOT doing despicable stuff.  In this case the former is what I see... hmm

But yeah, its 5 years unless you use Extended Term Support builds and I looked up how much it costs, its expensive lol.


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon!

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#12 2021-01-29 21:50:25

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
Website

Re: devuan and LTS

zapper wrote:

He means Extended Term Support, but yeah... he is kind of full of it.

Trolls are usually more fun if they are NOT hating or NOT doing despicable stuff.  In this case the former is what I see... hmm

But yeah, its 5 years unless you use Extended Term Support builds and I looked up how much it costs, its expensive lol.

the point here is that if we sourcered debian pacakges to clean from shistemd, why security updates in devuan are so late? lest remenber that ExLTS packages are free of use.. of course, i grab that sources and build my own devuan packages cos devuan ones are so late ..

stop of "troll you said the true i'll will banned you"

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#13 2021-01-29 22:18:48

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,890  

Re: devuan and LTS

Security updates are sometimes late in devuan because amprolla gets confused when it sometimes gets a 404 on a debian repo. When this happens, it's usually discovered and fixed within a few days. You've probably seen the discussions on this forum about it.

There are people working on this, and based on something I was told a few days ago, it might already be fixed.

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#14 2021-01-29 22:23:50

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,247  

Re: devuan and LTS

Get real.  Some folk just know everything and no one else can do anything right . . .  roll

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#15 2021-01-30 03:55:59

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
Website

Re: devuan and LTS

fsmithred wrote:

Security updates are sometimes late in devuan because amprolla gets confused when it sometimes gets a 404 on a debian repo. When this happens, it's usually discovered and fixed within a few days. You've probably seen the discussions on this forum about it.

There are people working on this, and based on something I was told a few days ago, it might already be fixed.

Thanks, that's a good response.. i noted the problem as i said.. and some time ago there was a project to do the same at the Devuan side! what happened with that? was dissapear and i cannot found any hint about

About amprolla i talked about the disavantages in old days but (cos erasing are the rule) i lost the info in devuan sites.. I proposed an idea similar to Debian mentors, but morte with a build site like OBS, i.e. something like PPA for winbuntu, due Devuan limitations on resources and manpowers, the most cheap way is request support of Devuan images in OBS (Opensuse Build Service).

finally at last, talking about support and info, in web page they changed the color scheme of the web page, now there is a decent contrast, but the information is too general, I searched a lot how many years of support has each release and it is not there, this is because each release changes respect of the software included and this influences the supported one

zapper wrote:

But yeah, its 5 years unless you use Extended Term Support builds and I looked up how much it costs, its expensive lol.

fsmithred wrote:

...that a private company is offering commercial support fo...

For those that does not know, i repeat again.. ExLTS is mostly sponsored.. but not in all, we can use the packages freelty, but companies paid the support TO BUILD packages only as they need, by example we have golang with a several bug, and no one of the companies that are paying need that package. well will not to be included.. in fact kernel is always backported, its more like the D-I backports images of kenshi muto in older days..

Last edited by mckaygerhard (2021-01-30 03:58:41)

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#16 2021-01-30 10:08:16

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 313  

Re: devuan and LTS

mckaygerhard wrote:
fsmithred wrote:

Security updates are sometimes late in devuan because amprolla gets confused when it sometimes gets a 404 on a debian repo. When this happens, it's usually discovered and fixed within a few days. You've probably seen the discussions on this forum about it.

There are people working on this, and based on something I was told a few days ago, it might already be fixed.

Thanks, that's a good response.. i noted the problem as i said.. and some time ago there was a project to do the same at the Devuan side! what happened with that? was dissapear and i cannot found any hint about

About amprolla i talked about the disavantages in old days but (cos erasing are the rule) i lost the info in devuan sites.. I proposed an idea similar to Debian mentors, but morte with a build site like OBS, i.e. something like PPA for winbuntu, due Devuan limitations on resources and manpowers, the most cheap way is request support of Devuan images in OBS (Opensuse Build Service).

finally at last, talking about support and info, in web page they changed the color scheme of the web page, now there is a decent contrast, but the information is too general, I searched a lot how many years of support has each release and it is not there, this is because each release changes respect of the software included and this influences the supported one

zapper wrote:

But yeah, its 5 years unless you use Extended Term Support builds and I looked up how much it costs, its expensive lol.

fsmithred wrote:

...that a private company is offering commercial support fo...

For those that does not know, i repeat again.. ExLTS is mostly sponsored.. but not in all, we can use the packages freelty, but companies paid the support TO BUILD packages only as they need, by example we have golang with a several bug, and no one of the companies that are paying need that package. well will not to be included.. in fact kernel is always backported, its more like the D-I backports images of kenshi muto in older days..

Okay, now I am curious of your sources... can you show me evidence of such? I thought ELTS costs money for all people.


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon!

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#17 2021-01-30 21:47:30

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
Website

Re: devuan and LTS

zapper wrote:

For those that does not know, i repeat again.. ExLTS is mostly sponsored.. but not in all, we can use the packages freelty, but companies paid the support TO BUILD packages only as they need, by example we have golang with a several bug, and no one of the companies that are paying need that package. well will not to be included.. in fact kernel is always backported, its more like the D-I backports images of kenshi muto in older days..

Okay, now I am curious of your sources... can you show me evidence of such? I thought ELTS costs money for all people.

you already learned to read ... and I already gave the wiki pages where the info comes out ... I must do your homework? .... well is clear you are missing something

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#18 2021-01-31 00:20:53

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 284  

Re: devuan and LTS

mckaygerhard wrote:
zapper wrote:

For those that does not know, i repeat again.. ExLTS is mostly sponsored.. but not in all, we can use the packages freelty, but companies paid the support TO BUILD packages only as they need, by example we have golang with a several bug, and no one of the companies that are paying need that package. well will not to be included.. in fact kernel is always backported, its more like the D-I backports images of kenshi muto in older days..

Okay, now I am curious of your sources... can you show me evidence of such? I thought ELTS costs money for all people.

you already learned to read ... and I already gave the wiki pages where the info comes out ... I must do your homework? .... well is clear you are missing something

You are becoming quite tedious. Why do you need to be so abrasive and aggressive? Other people seem to be able to make their points without becoming abusive. Please show a bit more respect and restraint.

Last edited by sgage (2021-01-31 00:21:32)

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#19 2021-02-04 12:21:09

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 313  

Re: devuan and LTS

mckaygerhard wrote:
zapper wrote:

For those that does not know, i repeat again.. ExLTS is mostly sponsored.. but not in all, we can use the packages freelty, but companies paid the support TO BUILD packages only as they need, by example we have golang with a several bug, and no one of the companies that are paying need that package. well will not to be included.. in fact kernel is always backported, its more like the D-I backports images of kenshi muto in older days..

Okay, now I am curious of your sources... can you show me evidence of such? I thought ELTS costs money for all people.

you already learned to read ... and I already gave the wiki pages where the info comes out ... I must do your homework? .... well is clear you are missing something

Oh... I didn't see the wiki link, my bad...

EDIT: Seems you might be right, although, its a bit unclear...

On the debian page, it seems to agree with you, but one of their links says otherwise...

Still, I don't see much point in ELTS, if it only focuses on a few packages...

Last edited by zapper (2021-02-04 12:25:08)


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon!

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#20 2021-02-05 12:51:22

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
Website

Re: devuan and LTS

What is not clear? you do not see any point in these updated packages, in a serious company, and I will explain so that it is not misinterpreted:

1. Many companies for reasons of both money and loyalty to their customers (which are the most important) can not simply migrate things, the biggest example is the move from python 2.7 to python 3. of cousre that crap named python finally got a "decent stable not changin constantly" api in 3.X series

That's the reason why it's "only some packages", let's see if I was clear... and also..

2. The second thing is that it is not "some" but "on demand" if some package suddenly needs security it is included, ah of course this is only done by those who pay. The one who doesn't pay only enjoys what is there... now if I was clear?

we must read inside the lines of the freexian pages.

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#21 2021-02-05 18:05:45

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 313  

Re: devuan and LTS

Ah, so people who get better support are those who pay...

That makes sense


Black Lives Matter!  I am white, but I prefer equality over hatred.
Haughtiness comes before a fall, pride before destruction.
Peace be with you!
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon!

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#22 2021-02-06 17:27:19

mckaygerhard
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 276  
Website

Re: devuan and LTS

zapper wrote:

Ah, so people who get better support are those who pay...

That makes sense

well guys.. party is over.. do you remenber the happened with grsecurity patches? well will be happened with updates maybe.. check this now, but is an important thing.. we understand all have cost.. it is too suspicious that having problems with #jessie now that they are going to #pay for sure will solve them after refusing to do in github issues panel! very very rare right?

🇬🇧 making a #php  #security repository was the perfect excuse for making money using the fame from #debian #mantainers https://qgqlochekone.blogspot.com/2021/ … y-and.html

🇻🇪 hacer un #repositorio de #php fue la excusa perfecta para hacer dinero usando la fama de mantenedor https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/la-astuc … p-ve-gnuli

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