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#1 2023-12-14 19:38:51

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 138  

New Devuan user here

Been a long time Debian user, at one time even an active DD (but inactive for many years now -- no time), but gradually more and more disillusioned by the direction things are heading. Resisted systemd for the longest time, until the recent releases completely got rid of other options. (Probably theoretically possible to do it still, but with half the repo having systemd dependencies (mostly indirectly) it just wasn't a realistic option at all.) At first it wasn't too bad... but then systemd just continued to grow and grow in scope unabated.  The last straw was reading about the latest news that they're adopting BSOD and changing the way home directories are managed, and my only thought was, WHAT HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH AN INIT SYSTEM??!!?!?!?!  Well, that, and You-Know-Who's proclamations about "one platform" and "standardising" the Linux desktop, all that junk (sheesh, if I wanted that, I'd be using Windows instead of Linux. Whatever happened to user choice?!)

So today I decided to take the plunge and migrate to Devuan (been eyeing it for a long time now, ever since the whole systemd fiasco in Debian left a lot of sour feelings). Migration didn't go quite as smoothly as the website migration instructions indicate (I was running Debian/trixie); in the middle there were some broken dependencies involving systemd conflicting with eudev, and apt-get refused to proceed any further.  But I was determined not to let that stop me -- I've had enough of systemd and its creeping scope, and don't ever want to deal with it again.  So I brought my former-DD skills to bear: apt-get download to download packages manually, and dpkg --force-depends to get past the blockade. Eventually I force-installed sysvinit-core and its dependencies in spite of apt complaining loudly that systemd is broken, then rebooted. Then finally got rid of systemd for good.

After rebooting, I found that my nftables.conf wasn't being run, because it depended on a systemd unit. Well no problem, edit /etc/init.d/networking to manually run `nft -f /etc/nftables.conf` on startup, and it's good to go. To be in control again -- after years of languishing in systemd land with things "automagically" taken care of for me, it felt good.

So, new Devuan user here. :-)

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#2 2023-12-14 20:01:46

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,397  

Re: New Devuan user here

Hi and welcome to Devuan!

We only have around a dozen people maintaining forked packages, and that load keeps getting bigger. If you ever get the urge to start developing again, it would probably be easy for you to find something to do around here.

From what I've seen, migrations from debian to devuan are a crap-shoot. I think it depends on what all you have installed. Upgrades and fresh installs are a lot more reliable.

In general, I think devuan is more like debian than debian is. I think you'll feel at home here.

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#3 2023-12-14 20:46:04

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 138  

Re: New Devuan user here

From what I've read around here, certainly feels like this is the old Debian, before a certain group of people started to move Debian deliberately away from its roots and towards the Microsoft way of doing things (we know better than you do, we know what's best for you, trust us, give up doing things your way, it's our way or the highway).

No promises here -- being a parent now and having no free time at all -- but out of curiosity, where's the list of forked packages and what needs to be done?  Would love to contribute in whatever way I can to keep the old ways alive!

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#4 2023-12-14 22:34:58

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,107  

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#5 2023-12-15 01:45:39

DelTomix
Administrator
Registered: 2023-08-30
Posts: 5  

Re: New Devuan user here

quickfur wrote:

No promises here -- being a parent now and having no free time at all -- but out of curiosity, where's the list of forked packages and what needs to be done?  Would love to contribute in whatever way I can to keep the old ways alive!

Welcome in quickfur !

One way to get a current list of forked packages is to grab the sources.gz from;  http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/dists … in/source/
...Then for a quick list you can just 

zcat sources.gz | grep -E '^Package:' 

...or just browse through the file for full details. (not strictly forked packages - some devuan-specific things also in there).

Sources for any of them are also available on Devuan's git repo https://git.devuan.org/explore/repos (as golinux posted above).

Latest gives me 94 packages;

Package: acdcli
Package: anna
Package: apt
Package: apt-setup
Package: avahi
Package: base-files
Package: base-installer
Package: cgroupfs-mount
Package: choose-init
Package: choose-mirror
Package: cinnabar-icon-theme
Package: clearlooks-phenix-cinnabar-theme
Package: clearlooks-phenix-darkpurpy-theme
Package: clearlooks-phenix-deepsea-theme
Package: clearlooks-phenix-lightpurpy-theme
Package: clearlooks-phenix-sapphire-theme
Package: colord
Package: cryptsetup-modified-functions
Package: czmq
Package: darkpurpy-icon-theme
Package: dbus
Package: debian-config-override
Package: debian-installer
Package: debootstrap
Package: deepsea-icon-theme
Package: desktop-base
Package: devscripts-devuan
Package: devuan-baseconf
Package: devuan-keyring
Package: devuan-lintian-profile
Package: distro-info-data
Package: dnscrypt-proxy
Package: dq
Package: elogind
Package: eudev
Package: firewalld
Package: fluidsynth
Package: fontsnaps
Package: freeipa
Package: grub-installer
Package: hylafax
Package: init-system-helpers
Package: jenkins-buildenv-devuan
Package: jenkins-debian-glue-buildenv-devuan
Package: ldm
Package: libvirt
Package: libvirt
Package: libvirt
Package: lightdm
Package: live-build
Package: live-config
Package: ltsp
Package: ltspfs
Package: main-menu
Package: mdadm
Package: net-retriever
Package: net-tools
Package: netcfg
Package: network-manager
Package: oddjob
Package: openvpn
Package: packagekit
Package: pam-mkhomedir
Package: pcsc-lite
Package: pdns-recursor
Package: pinthread
Package: plymouth
Package: policykit-1
Package: popularity-contest
Package: procps
Package: python-apt-common-devuan
Package: refractainstaller-base
Package: refractainstaller-gui
Package: refractasnapshot-base
Package: refractasnapshot-gui
Package: reportbug
Package: rootskel-gtk
Package: rrqnet
Package: rsyslog
Package: sgm
Package: slim
Package: sshguard
Package: syslinux
Package: systemctl-service-shim
Package: sysvinit
Package: tasksel
Package: tomcat9
Package: udev
Package: udisks2
Package: unattended-upgrades
Package: util-linux
Package: xfce4-session
Package: xlennart
Package: xorg-server

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#6 2023-12-15 02:24:50

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,107  

Re: New Devuan user here

Now THERE'S an answer. Thanks DelTomix!  big_smile

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#7 2023-12-15 09:36:10

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 406  

Re: New Devuan user here

Welcome aboard. smile

Devuan is what Debian was - giving back freedom to the user. wink

Last edited by Camtaf (2023-12-15 09:36:37)

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#8 2023-12-15 13:55:01

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn
Member
Registered: 2023-11-27
Posts: 51  

Re: New Devuan user here

indeed, welcome to all/everyone/experts/novices/us/etc, the more the merrier

“Do not try and bend the spoon, that’s impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth …
There is no spoon. Then you’ll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.”
https://matrix4humans.com/matrix-spoon/


Be Excellent to each other and Party On!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rph_1DODXDU
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Ted%27s_Excellent_Adventure
Do unto others as you would have them do instantaneously back to you

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#9 2023-12-15 16:22:37

boughtonp
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2023-01-19
Posts: 191  
Website

Re: New Devuan user here

DelTomix wrote:

One way to get a current list of forked packages is to grab the sources.gz from;  http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/dists … in/source/
...Then for a quick list you can just 

zcat sources.gz | grep -E '^Package:' 

...or just browse through the file for full details. (not strictly forked packages - some devuan-specific things also in there).

Or simply zgrep '^Package:' Sources.gz

One might be able to identify forked packages via the version string... zgrep --count '^Version:.*devuan' Sources.gz gives 64.

There's also an "Origin: Devuan" field which might mean something - it's present on 79 of the records.

Last edited by boughtonp (2023-12-15 16:23:04)


3.1415P265E589T932E846R64338

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#10 2023-12-16 01:11:55

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 138  

Re: New Devuan user here

Camtaf wrote:

Welcome aboard. smile

Devuan is what Debian was - giving back freedom to the user. wink

Awesome to hear, that's exactly my original reason for going with Debian, and why over the years I became more and more disillusioned, because gradually they started taking away the user's choice. It's my personal thesis that the best technology is the one that empowers the user, rather than the authors/upstream/whoever it may be. After all, the reason for the computer's existence and the existence of software that runs on the computer is to serve the user. If we don't empower the user, we've defeated the whole purpose. What use is a tool that no longer serves its user?  The whole raison d'etre of FSF, the open source movement, etc., is the empowerment of the user, as opposed to some other entity.  Interesting (and sad) to see how people lost sight of this over the years and returned to the bad old paradigms of restricting the user and shoving things down the user's throat instead of letting the user choose for himself.

OK, I'll get off the soapbox now. :-D

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#11 2023-12-16 01:16:07

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 138  

Re: New Devuan user here

DelTomix wrote:

[...]
Welcome in quickfur !

Thanks, I feel at home already!

One way to get a current list of forked packages is to grab the sources.gz from;  http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/dists … in/source/
...Then for a quick list you can just 

zcat sources.gz | grep -E '^Package:' 

...or just browse through the file for full details. (not strictly forked packages - some devuan-specific things also in there).

Sources for any of them are also available on Devuan's git repo https://git.devuan.org/explore/repos (as golinux posted above).

Latest gives me 94 packages;
[...]

Whoa that's a lot of packages.  I'm guessing these are the packages that have explicit dependencies on systemd and/or related stuff?  How many of them have upstreams that have chosen to depend on systemd? I.e., we basically have to fork and maintain ourselves because upstream isn't gonna help us.  Just wondering if a good chunk of these packages just need small patches, or if the bulk of them need non-trivial work to stay systemd-free.

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#12 2023-12-16 01:54:04

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,107  

Re: New Devuan user here

These packages in DelTomix's list above have been forked not for technical reasons relating to Debian's systemd 'lock-in' but to customize the iconic Devuan desktop themes. There may also be other packages not tied to systemd:

Package: clearlooks-phenix-cinnabar-theme
Package: clearlooks-phenix-darkpurpy-theme
Package: clearlooks-phenix-deepsea-theme
Package: clearlooks-phenix-lightpurpy-theme
Package: clearlooks-phenix-sapphire-theme

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#13 2023-12-18 17:28:34

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 138  

Re: New Devuan user here

Ah I see.  Unfortunately, I don't take much interest in theming, being a Ratpoison user. I avoid desktop environments like the plague. big_smile

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#14 2023-12-18 17:31:33

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 138  

Re: New Devuan user here

P.S. I just migrated another box to Devuan this morning.  This time the upgrade worked better, no crazy apt-get breakages, everything went smoothly except for having to edit /etc/network/interfaces to use old interface names instead of the newer ones. The box is running noticeably faster, for some reason. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but it feels lighter, and I'm suspecting it has to do with useless background processes not being spawned by systemd anymore. (Or it could just be confirmation bias, who knows. But I'm loving it. tongue)

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#15 2023-12-18 17:31:50

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,107  

Re: New Devuan user here

@quickfur . . .  That wasn't the point. The point was that some of the packages in that list are not connected to Devuan's "magic" to work around systemd.

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#16 2023-12-18 18:34:28

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 138  

Re: New Devuan user here

Right, but I probably won't be able to help with those packages since I don't use them. big_smile

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#17 2023-12-18 19:12:02

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,107  

Re: New Devuan user here

Sigh . . . that wasn't the point either . . .

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#18 2023-12-19 18:02:26

greenjeans
Member
Registered: 2017-04-07
Posts: 505  
Website

Re: New Devuan user here

uggh...purpy....

Now maybe if there was a Package: meanlooks-dark-ornery-curmudgeon-monochromatic-theme I could get on board with that. wink


https://sourceforge.net/projects/vuu-do/
Vuu-do GNU/Linux, minimal Devuan-based openbox systems to build on, maximal versions if you prefer your linux fully-loaded.

Please donate to support Devuan and init freedom! https://devuan.org/os/donate

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#19 2023-12-19 18:38:03

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,107  

Re: New Devuan user here

@greenjeans . . . It's looking like there won't be any more Devuan custom themes for you to bitch about . . . so you can do a happy dance . . .   wink

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#20 2023-12-19 21:20:18

greenjeans
Member
Registered: 2017-04-07
Posts: 505  
Website

Re: New Devuan user here

golinux wrote:

@greenjeans . . . It's looking like there won't be any more Devuan custom themes for you to bitch about . . . so you can do a happy dance . . .   wink

What? Need more info!

But first let me explain about the gentlemanly art of curmudgeonry, you see, we would be miserable if we DIDN'T have something to bitch about, what good is a lawn if not for yelling at hippies to get the hell off it?

Perhaps a visual aid, this is me and The-Amnesiac-Philosopher recently, taunting Lennart Pothead as he left Redhat, telling him not to let the door hit him in the a**, just look at how happy we are:

89wtfz.jpg

Now what's all this about no Devuan theme?

Last edited by greenjeans (2023-12-19 21:37:20)


https://sourceforge.net/projects/vuu-do/
Vuu-do GNU/Linux, minimal Devuan-based openbox systems to build on, maximal versions if you prefer your linux fully-loaded.

Please donate to support Devuan and init freedom! https://devuan.org/os/donate

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#21 2023-12-20 11:32:17

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher
Member
Registered: 2023-08-24
Posts: 234  

Re: New Devuan user here

Hahaha! That's pretty funny! big_smile

I don't remember now, but it used to be (when building my own system from a netinstall) that I would install xorg and the display manager with --no-install-recommends, and the default themes weren't brought in.

I'm too Amnesiactical to remember which one actually has the themes included, nor do I know if that still applies. I haven't built a system in a long time; I just keep upgrading the ones I have.

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