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windowsifies the Linux init system by locking the kernel to itself: the kernel no longer communicates with various tools, it just communicates with systemd, period.
That's not even remotely how any of this works. ![]()
Init, whatever it may be, is a userspace program and interacts with kernel facilities the same way any other userspace program does (i.e. mostly via libc, or using public kernel ABIs).
No init links directly against the kernel or "locks" anything, and the claim that systemd somehow prevents the kernel "communicating" with "various tools" is completely ridiculous.
Can we really not discuss init systems in here without resorting to irrelevant, misinformed systemd FUD? Systemd wasn't even mentioned in the OP, the question is why we aren't exploring a switch to one of the other options.
Bullies tend to force stuff down peoples' throats.
People who have no idea what they're talking about tend to fall back on broad generalisations and stupid analogies.
something depends on a library connected to the above yet would work otherwise if the devs weren't so stupid and made it a forced dependency
Examples or it didn't happen... Examples which are real hard dependencies and not just compile-time options Debian decided to enable.
buggy supposedly
...
its mega buggy
Again, concrete examples or GTFO.
If you don't think its being pushed hard, try to remove wayland and its libraries completely from devuan and see how that goes.
Nothing to do with wayland, everything to do with Debian packaging decisions.
Also, wayland is just a protocol and the presence of libwayland-* on a system does not imply anything is actually using it.
I have been using wayland for over a year
Good thing I switched to XLibre
FWIW, I have both xlibre and wayland sessions available at the display manager... Both have bugs, both are improving. I use whatever works best for what I'm doing, and report bugs when they appear.
Religious wars are stupid.
made lightDM the primary bootloader.
LightDM is not a bootloader, it's a Display Manager.
followed by a line containing a line space (_). That is followed by a blank screen
To eliminate GPU drivers and X11, I'd suggest testing boot to a TTY (e.g. "recovery mode" or whatever it's called, or specifying a non-graphical runlevel on the kernel command line), and/or disabling KMS by passing 'nomodeset' on the command line.
Once you have a working TTY login, you have an environment to capture logs and troubleshoot any issues with the GUI.
Rude.
Yeah, very professional and welcoming admins we have here. ![]()
Bear in mind golinux has essentially no idea what they're talking about on a technical level, so being an obnoxious twat is the default response to anything that threatens to stray away from ideological dogma and into practical discussion.
"Age" doesn't matter two hoots.
Indeed... But that does cut both ways.
Sysv isn't "bad" because it's old, but simply being old doesn't make it good (or even necessarily "refined") either.
The more relevant question is whether or not it is suitable for current requirements. Religious wars aside, if the plethora of alternatives and repeated attempts to replace it are anything to go by, that's very much up for debate.
no more vulnerable to threats than systemd.
What does systemd have to do with anything? OP didn't even mention that particular option.
by nature it's more secure
Almost entirely because it does less. A more fair comparison (assuming more features are actually wanted, but that's a separate argument) would be sysvinit vs. $other_init stripped down to comparable functionality, or $other_init vs. sysvinit + all the daemons needed to achieve feature parity.
it does so little and so well
Sure... But there's also a valid argument in that it does too little. Take the unholy mess of shell scripts Debian ships and the various bolt-on service ordering/dependency hacks (e.g. insserv) for example... That's where all the bugs and borkage are, not in sysv itself.
My computer ever says some **** like that to me, i'm gonna take it out back and shoot it.
If my computer says *anything* to me, or tries in any way to be "helpful", "conversational", or otherwise waste my time unless explicitly asked to do so, I'll rip out its operating system on the spot.
Hi User. Seems you need help!
*Click*
*BANG*
On OP's other similar suggestions... The moment an "installer" starts to "probe the user" (noisily or otherwise, but especially if it's noisily) is the moment I throw that disk in the trash.
A computer is a tool, it should do exactly what the user tells it to do and nothing more. No "volunteering", no "helpful" interjections with unsolicited advice, suggestions, or options.
What is proposed here is essentially Clippy, but infinitely more annoying and integrated into the whole system. Just. No.
SSID is simply the "name" of the network you want to connect to. The installer has no "scan" facility, so the simplest answer is probably to check with some device that does.
It'll be either whatever you or the network admin set it to, or manufacturer default, usually found on a sticker on the AP.
You will of course also need the password or key.
The only isos I have found are for the amd architecture.
arch: x86_64
amd64 is for any x86_64, Intel or AMD. The port is named that because AMD invented 64-bit x86 while intel was still floundering about with Itanic.
As long as Thunar and it's dependencies are setup correctly life is simple & it just works.
stay away from bloated products like gvfs
This is an oxymoron. GVFS is the dependency of thunar that makes this "just work". The "bloat" you want to stay away from is the very thing that makes "life is simple" possible.
"bloat" is code that does not provide sufficient functionality to justify its size, complexity, or performance impact. Clearly you value GUI automounting from your file manager and are willing to install GVFS to provide it. Therefore, GVFS is not bloat.
a core2duo and 4gigs of ram
Is literally retrocomputing at this point (for the love of doG, at least put a C2Q in it), and you'd be better off dual-booting a stripped-down Windows XP. With those specs, WINE is "bloat".
fanboy
Nothing of the sort, simply saying it the way it is. If your graphics drivers advertise that they can do vulkan (which mesa can, on the CPU), then things will naturally try to use it.
None of this is steam at fault, it's simply a consequence of trying to run modern software on ancient hardware. Crying "bloat" any time you run into hardware limitations doesn't change reality.
Uhhm, I'm not the only one who finds the idea of using the trash bin as a backup strategy completely batshit insane, am I?
Two words: Verified backups.
Make them. Test them. Then empty the trash bin and restore anything important from backup, to a sensible archive folder.
Steam uses wine to run windows games. The differences between "vanilla" wine and steam's "proton" fork are minimal, and usually confined to the latter being optimised and/or patched for gaming as opposed to general application compatibility.
steam defaults to vulkan so if youre card cant do vulkan it will run the game with software vulkan
This has nothing whatsoever to do with steam. Proton (and most other "gaming" focused wine builds and frontends for that matter) defaults to enabling DXVK (and VKD3D for DX12) , because that is by far the best performing DirectX API translation layer available.
DXVK will use whatever vulkan renderer the host graphics drivers advertise, and on antique GPUs that could well be the lavapipe CPU implementation... Provided by mesa.
If your GPU doesn't support vulkan, you'd be better served by reading the documentation and setting the appropriate environment variables, rather than wasting perfectly good oxygen bitching about steam and "bloat".
Does anyone care? Flatpak is nothing but a cunning device for turning [user laziness] into [profit for storage device manufacturers].
The only "universal package format" worth a dime right now is AppImage, and even that is of thoroughly dubious benefit when build-from-source is (and ever will-be) a thing.
Betcha a cookie this is yet another case of the conspicuously still not backported to stable network-manager packaging SNAFU.
Can you please explain?
There is a file missing from the excalibur network-manager package. As I said to Andre there:
You might try grabbing that missing file (/etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d/01-ifupdown) from the Daedalus network-manager package.
That's probably the easiest solution while we wait (and wait, and wait some more) for this to be fixed in the stable repo and install images.
you need to not look up & copy/paste from tutorials where a systemd distro is used
The only systemd-related artifact here is x-systemd.automount, and while it obviously won't work, it won't hurt anything either as none of the scripts involved look at it.
Maybe try actually addressing the problem, rather than just looking for excuses to bitch about systemd?
Upon desktop login, the shared folders are not mounted. I run a `mount -av`, and they mount just fine.
How is your networking configured? if you're using networkmanager, see this thread.
If you're using ifupdown, we'll need /var/log/boot (or wherever you have your init logs going to), and you should probably have a look for anything related in /var/log/syslog (or /var/log/messages, or wherever you have general daemon logging going) and the kernel ring-buffer (i.e. dmesg).
Also, repeating for more visibility because your fstab listing is almost unreadable:
use code tags
why or how your experience with 'sddm' became so awful
SDDM is supposed to be able to run wayland-native, using either kwin or weston as the compositor. Neither work, instead locking up the TTY and producing absolutely no clues as to why.
I've already spent many hours (and many blind-reboots) on that and I'd spend more, if it weren't for the ridiculous list of other unaddressed bugs in sddm - frankly the thing appears to be a lost cause at this point... The KDE project seems to agree insofar as forking it so they can ship a reliable (though systemd-dependent) DM for their upcoming (6.8) shift to wayland-only.
force the use of x11
Which is the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve. I've repeated "without an Xserver for the display manager" more than once now, I'm really not sure why people keep suggesting X11-based DMs.
SDDM works fine when running on X, that's not the point, nor the goal.
Removing the launcher for that module was an especially asinine move, in a growing list of asinine moves from KDE of late. The justification apparently being to "get people to report bugs instead of working around them, we'll tell them how to find it if they need it"...
I recommend making a .desktop file / application menu entry for it for the future.
Other "hidden" kde things that may be of interest:
kdebugsettings
kcmshell6 kcm_qtquicksettings
kcmshell6 --list in general
qdbus6 org.kde.KWin /KWin org.kde.KWin.showDebugConsole (kwin debug console)
This is missing in my Devuan/KDE installation. (I assume that it has something to do with not using Systemd.)
It does.
Do Devuan users rely on the Systemctl command to find out which services are running and to turn off undesired background services
No, that's a systemd tool for interacting with systemd. It won't work as expected on Devuan, because (assuming it exists at all) it's just a "shim" translating (a limited subset of) commands to sysvinit equivalents.
Since sysvinit has no notion of "user services" (which KDE uses to manage it's background components when systemd is present), only system services will show up and only root will be able to mess with them.
is there some other method that can be used
For system services:
man init
man service
man insserv
man update-rc.d
For user services:
There are no user services, it's up to you (or KDE's KDED) to manage user-context daemons and all that.
optional KDE Services
e.g.
Application Menu daemon
Are user services and have nothing to do with init or system service managers when not using systemd, they're managed by KDE itself via KDED.
I don't know what version of KDE/Plasma you're running, but if you can't find "Background Services" in KDE's "System Settings"... It's likely because the developers childishly hid it, on account of people disabling kscreen to work around an otherwise crippling bug (aka corrosive but all-too-common "users are idiots, hide all the sharp tools" mentality).
If that's the case, you should be able to launch it manually with kcmshell6 kcm_kded.
Do you actually have a (session) dbus instance running? How was it started?
The trick is that you want one session bus, and everything in your session to be using the same bus address.
So "DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS,unix:path=/run/user/1000/bus" or whatever you are setting the session bus address to needs to be the same as what you passed to dbus-daemon when you started it.
I use OpenRC user services to start (and supervise) dbus-daemon explicitly, so I know that it was launched with '--address ${XDG_RUNTIME_DIR:-"/run/user/$(id -u)"}/bus'. This may not be the case in your setup, which is why I said "Something along the lines of" rather than "copy-paste this".
If you're using dbus-launch, you can a: Manually ensure DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS is already set in the environment dbus-launch runs with (and set the same for anything that needs to connect to it) b: Make sure everything that needs to connect to the session bus inherits dbus-launch's environment (since it will set DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS itself if it is empty) or c: Use dbus-update-activation-environment as EDX-0 described above.
When you launch applications with dbus-launch or dbus-run-session, you often end up creating a new dbus session just for that application - (so it will start, but it won't be able to do IPC with anything else), or in the case of something like hyprland, starting a session but not propagating the bus address to applications started later (usually because something, like a greeter or launcher, is stripping environment). Launching subsequent applications with dbus-run-session risks starting another isolated dbus session, and you end up back in scenario 1.
dbus-run-session is used to start a session bus instance of dbus-daemon from a shell script,
and start a specified program in that session. The dbus-daemon will run for as long as the
program does, after which it will terminate.
...
Another use is to run regression tests and similar things in an isolated D-Bus session, to
avoid either interfering with the "real" D-Bus session or relying on there already being a
D-Bus session active
...
The session bus' address is made available to PROGRAM in the environment variable
DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS.
console-tdm
Interesting, and appears to be pretty much pure shell too...
It'd be more interesting if the github page didn't have dead links to screenshots and unanswered issues dating back to 2021 though. Looks rather dead/abandoned to me, last commit was 7 years ago.
It also doesn't really look like a full display manager, more just a wrapper for startx to select an environment. Unless I'm missing something obvious, I see no login handling functionality at all.
tdm (1) is a console based display manager, presenting the user with a list of
available sessions after login.
tdminit: script executed at login
tdm: session selector after login.
(emphasis mine)
No "started by init", or "handle login" to be found, AFCocaineCT this is really just an app launcher in shell (which I would have written myself already, if that's what I was after), the user selection and login would still be getty.
lxdm or lightdm or slim
Those all run on X, do they not?
without itself requiring an Xserver
The whole point of the exercise is graphical (or at least TUI/menu-driven) login and session selection, while not needing to run an xserver for the DM, which is kinda a prerequisite for the whole (somewhat dubious) "wayland is the future / x11 is deprecated" shtick.
That means either a wayland-native graphical DM that isn't both a memory-hog and a dog to configure, or a console TUI DM that can do the basics like presenting a list of users and sessions, providing power-off / reboot functions, remembering a users last/preferred session, and generally not looking absolutely awful.
Right now my short-list is lemurs or greetd+tuigreet. Both are (unfortunately and loudly) rust, but that's not a complete showstopper. Kinda hoping a not-rust equivalent existed, but so-so.
The Ly display manager
"A lightweight TUI (ncurses-like) display manager for Linux and BSD."
Sounds good on paper, until you realise "ncurses like" means "doesn't actually use ncurses, instead reinvents it in zig". It's not packaged in Debian, and while there are ebuilds for Gentoo, that just makes needing to install the whole zig toolchain for a text box slightly less annoying.
You want me to make you one?
I was getting dangerously close to doing that myself, but between gathering patches from not-dead forks and a couple of my own, I think I might have got tuigreet into a mostly usable state. It's still rust and it's still part of the "1200 crates" ecosystem, which is irritating, but at least that's a toolchain I already have installed for firefox & co.
Honestly, this is all in service of my biennial "can wayland completely replace X yet / can you comfortably run a desktop system without an xserver installed" investigation.
The answer is still "not really" (unless it's GNOME, maybe). ![]()
* Can launch both X and wayland sessions (primarily plasma, with options for e.g. icewm or FVWM on X11), without itself requiring an Xserver (wayland-native GUI or console TUI is fine).
* Provides menus (again, GUI or TUI is fine) for username and session type / command.
* Isn't abandoned/dormant/full of never fixed bugs and unmerged pull requests (tuigreet, sddm).
* Exhibits reliable, repeatable, deterministic behaviour when launched from either/both sysvinit and openrc (sddm).
* Does not, under any circumstances, crash and leave my TTY in an unusable state (again, sddm).
* Doesn't entail writing wrapper scripts, manually setting common environment variables, or more hand-configuration than some entire operating systems (most of greetd & co).
* Isn't written in zig, go, rust, or some other trendy "modern" language that requires 900MB of tooling and 1200 "crates" to build a text-box.
* Isn't GTK4.
About the closest I can find is lidm, I mean I have no idea if it'll be rewritten from-scratch next month like everything else, but at least it's not written in zig...
Anything else?
So, uhh, export the correct bus address? There are about 50 ways to set an environment variable system(or session)-wide.
Something along the lines of:
$ cat /etc/profile.d/zz-env-hacks.sh
#!/bin/sh
if [ -z "$DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS" ]; then
export DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS="unix:path=${XDG_RUNTIME_DIR:-"/run/user/$(id -u)"}/bus"
fi
if [ -z "$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR" ]; then
export XDG_RUNTIME_DIR="/run/user/$(id -u)"
if [ ! -d "$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR" ]; then
mkdir -p "$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR"
chmod 700 "$XDG_RUNTIME_DIR"
fi
fi(or the relevant part thereof) will probably do it, though I don't have a Debian/Devuan install with a GUI to confirm.
Something similar could also go in your users shell profile or some other script that is sourced during hyperland (which I also don't use) startup of course.
Indeed... but you're spoiling my fun ![]()
The list of packages this byzantine "installer" looks for (and tries to install, including tampering with sources.list to add unstable on some distros *barf*) can be found in installer/distros.dat after unpacking the .run file.
However, since it has no explicit entries for any version of "devuan" and the OP didn't bother to tell us which options were passed to the internal install script or provide the output in --debug mode (which likely would have told them exactly what it failed to find and why), I suppose we'll all have to guess.
So much for, and I reiterate with more emphasis:
Do not obtain software from anywhere other than Debian, not even from the software's author, unless you have the skills and the time to solve the resultant problems!
@deepforest If you're going to install software from outside the repos, on a distro that upstream doesn't even claim to support (note Debian being "present in supported distros" does not mean it will detect Devuan successfully), you get to keep all the pieces. Even if you get this to install, it will louse up your system with untracked files in unusual locations, just as the wiki warns.
We might be inclined to help, but if you want to do unsupported, not-recommended, oft-warned-against things to your system, you need to put in more effort than "Why do not want to install" - starting with at least a cursory investigation of how the installer works and gathering useful debug output.
This is not Windows, we do not run executable installers from manufacturer websites. Installing software from the stable repositories is "easy mode", running (or porting from) unstable, building from source, or using third-party scripts is "expert mode" and comes with the expectation that you are able and willing to put energy into solving your own problems.
do not be lazy, run hplip script
Riiight, so, people not wanting to do your homework for you or run unknown install scripts for software they don't need is "lazy"... Guess I'll be "lazy" too then, good luck.
most development packages in debian/devuan end in -dev, not -devel. There are a few libcups*-dev packages. Whoever wrote that script doesn't know that.
foo-devel is a RedHat thing, the script knows nothing about Devuan and it's a near-certainty that it's just misdetecting the distro... Which, again, had deepforest provided the output of hplip-install --debug we would know rather than have to take educated guesses at.
I mean, it took me all of about a minute to extract the install script and see it had a debug flag, surely Mr. "runs unstable and installs things from SourceForge" could have done that too ![]()
*Aside, if anyone is wondering why I'm not spoon-feeding the answer (besides just generally being a bastard OFC), it's right here in the attitude:
do not be lazy...
if you cant answer stop offtopic...
sado-mazo game/toy for geeks/nerds...
unprofessional...
by amators...
Its linux baby, here nothing works good...
Bugs at linux have name - "features"...