Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

Ron · 2018-04-30 20:15:16

Will the time ever come where systemd will become an even bigger entwined mess (than it is now) that Devuan would simply have to no longer be based on Debian, but become completely independent? Or for any other reason? I'm mostly just asking for curiosity's sake.

golinux · 2018-04-30 21:11:57

At some point we may have to clone the debian repos onto our infrastructure to preserve them from further systemd intrusion. Then we would be independent from debian. But pulling that off would require an influx of volunteers with ninja skills to handle the workload of keeping packages from upstream current.

Panopticon · 2018-05-01 10:45:38

^ if systemd intrusion goes full scale entwined mess they may as well just call it systemd or lennarts linux instead.

Last edited by Panopticon (2018-05-01 10:51:50)

devuser · 2018-05-01 11:04:16

golinux wrote:

At some point we may have to clone the debian repos onto our infrastructure to preserve them from further systemd intrusion. Then we would be independent from debian. But pulling that off would require an influx of volunteers with ninja skills to handle the workload of keeping packages from upstream current.

Pretty much this. The huge amount of packages debian has (20k+?) is simply prohibitive for any smaller distribution to just simply take over. Even Ubuntu customizes only a small percentage of packages.

mt12345 · 2018-05-27 01:28:59

Ron wrote:

Will the time ever come where systemd will become an even bigger entwined mess (than it is now) that Devuan would simply have to no longer be based on Debian, but become completely independent? Or for any other reason? I'm mostly just asking for curiosity's sake.

Systemd itself is not a mess. It's only Debian where it got totally messed up.
Fedora or Arch distributions don't really need systemd-free versions because systemd in these distros are implemented properly.
So, the chances are, one day project Devuan will no longer be needed.
I use whatever system works for me, for the time of writing this it's Devuan and (systemd-based) Archlinux.

devuser · 2018-05-27 07:40:55

mt12345 wrote:

Systemd itself is not a mess. It's only Debian where it got totally messed up.
Fedora or Arch distributions don't really need systemd-free versions because systemd in these distros are implemented properly.
So, the chances are, one day project Devuan will no longer be needed.
I use whatever system works for me, for the time of writing this it's Devuan and (systemd-based) Archlinux.

Well, what is a mess is quite subjective. It might be OK for you but for other people it isn't. I don't want to use it because in my opinion it's horrible by design (it's a lennart design after all - look at all the other stuff he did and i am quite sure you'll notice a pattern...). It interferes with my fundamental reasons for using Linux and that won't change no matter how it's packaged. Tons of complexity added for little to no gain is simply not my cup of tea.

yeti · 2018-05-27 09:23:47

mt12345 wrote:

Systemd itself is not a mess.

Maybe.

I expect systemd and non-systemd OSes to diverge over the years, so that we even will have an own name for the new breed. An then all will be ok. Unixlike OSes will stay being what we used to love in pre systemd days and systemd based OSes will have an own digitope not interferring with the unix universe.

All current aggressions are side effects of the divorce like situation we have now while the community splits into systemd lovers and unix lovers.

Give it some time... peace will return... breathe... ommmmmmPtimism!!!

Last edited by yeti (2018-05-27 09:25:09)

mt12345 · 2018-05-27 09:56:33

I agree systemd design is bad. It's against unix philosophy actually.
I'm just trying to point out the fact that Debian developers sc***ed up implementing it and in effect Debian users started to hate Mr Poettering who's responsible for systemd design but not for Debian devs poor job!

My favourite distro is Slackware, simple and straightforward, free from systemd, pulseaudio and other nonsense but unfortunately I can't run my favourite programs on it.

devuser · 2018-05-27 12:09:07

mt12345 wrote:

My favourite distro is Slackware, simple and straightforward, free from ... pulseaudio

Yep, that's kinda what i ment by pattern It's not like his other inventions aren't awful and unix hating but pulseaudio is a good example. For the average user there is hardly any advantage over ALSA, it took forever (and another maintainer) to become somewhat stable and those who might welcome the additional features (professional audio users) won't touch it since it's technically useless for them. Pure lennart ware.

mt12345 · 2018-05-27 12:26:59

I didnt know pulseaudio is Lennart's
LOL

devuser · 2018-05-27 13:02:23

mt12345 wrote:

I didnt know pulseaudio is Lennart's
LOL

Yeah funny isn't it? The guy has quite a bit of a track record. Ever cursed at any of the *kits and their crazy configs hidden away in some awkward directory that certainly isn't /etc? Yes? Now you know who to thank for that

siva · 2018-05-27 13:15:31

mt12345 wrote:

Systemd itself is not a mess. It's only Debian where it got totally messed up.
Fedora or Arch distributions don't really need systemd-free versions because systemd in these distros are implemented properly.

lmfao.

See also: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652 (I'm guessing you won't read it.)

mt12345 · 2018-05-27 17:10:56

siva wrote:

mt12345 wrote:
Systemd itself is not a mess. It's only Debian where it got totally messed up.
Fedora or Arch distributions don't really need systemd-free versions because systemd in these distros are implemented properly.
lmfao.

Yes you are right, systemd IS a mess.
But 99.99% Archers didn't switch to OpenRC, and remaining 0.01% did it because they HEARD systemd is pure evil.
And I bet they heard it from Debian users.

See also: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652 (I'm guessing you won't read it.)

Actually I did read it.
Very good post, confirming what I mentioned before: Debian camp screwed up.
I don't care what NASA uses nowadays, back in the day they chose YellowDogLinux, the worst distro ever for PPC machines.

siva · 2018-05-27 18:03:07

mt12345 wrote:

99.99% Archers didn't switch to OpenRC, and remaining 0.01% did it because they HEARD systemd is pure evil...I don't care what NASA uses nowadays, back in the day they chose YellowDogLinux, the worst distro ever for PPC machines.

This seems awfully familiar...oh, right.

dasein wrote:

Casual users and hobbyists probably won't care.

Archers have always had a tendency to go with the flow and whatever performs best; their culture is a nonsequitur because their goals are oriented with that mindset. Debian users' attitudes towards systemd range between apathetic and complicit, and there's a good reason: most of the professionals have fled to other projects, including Devuan. Debian's implementation of systemd is fine, and I recommend dropping by their community to test your beliefs about systemd, otherwise I'm going to [continue to] assume that you're just trolling ours.

As far as this community is concerned, it's more about maintaining software choice, even if that choice means a derivative of the mothership. Systemd is already a hard dependency in many programs, and that trend will probably continue if no one does anything about it. If intrusive software is properly configured, it's still intrusive software.

Since we're on nonsequiturs, I'd like to announce that I baked potatoes in the oven for the first time ever. They were delicious.

Last edited by siva (2018-05-27 18:10:04)

mt12345 · 2018-05-27 18:56:08

siva wrote:

Debian's implementation of systemd is fine

So why so many complaints on #systemd Freenode from Debianers?

siva · 2018-05-27 19:06:38

mt12345 wrote:

So why so many complaints on #systemd Freenode from Debianers?

Depends on the community you frequent, I guess; thanks for sharing that, as I rarely use IRC. I was thinking of the "official" forums (FDN). The attitude is implicitly pro-choice so long as Debian keeps other avenues open and doesn't completely restrict init choice. A lot of users there are renowned for derivates that use sysv or systemd and usually get along; the point is choice.

golinux · 2018-05-27 19:09:43

siva wrote:

. . .I rarely use IRC.

OT: Hoping you'll change that behavior. Come play with us!

siva · 2018-05-27 19:19:52

OT: Hoping you'll change that behavior. Come play with us!

I just need to sit down and invest four brain cells into an automated way to download the logs, so I can keep up to date with the conversations. I always seem to dip-in during dead hours

Last edited by siva (2018-05-27 19:21:20)

swarfendor437 · 2020-10-31 00:28:30

Was surprised that some members not aware of pulseaudio and systemd written by the same 'person' to put it nicely. Because most of his stuff is bloatware I wonder if he worked for M$ at one point! :->
And why name a running process rt-kit daemon? Apart from bad naming on another forum thread I read it was a potential security hole in respect of real-time processing!

Last edited by swarfendor437 (2020-10-31 00:29:47)

zapper · 2020-10-31 00:52:11

swarfendor437 wrote:

Was surprised that some members not aware of pulseaudio and systemd written by the same 'person' to put it nicely. Because most of his stuff is bloatware I wonder if he worked for M$ at one point! :->
And why name a running process rt-kit daemon? Apart from bad naming on another forum thread I read it was a potential security hole in respect of real-time processing!

Debian could ditch more of this bloatware and go in its own independent direction. Hyperbola a much smaller distro is already doing something similar.

why not cut, networkmanager, pulsecrap, system dumb libraries and even dbus out in future?

Not like you cant make other options open. dhcpcd-gtk works well enough, if dhcpcd has no dbus dependency.

Yes you would have to become more independent long term, but it could be worth it long term. The other option is to continue what your doing and to eventually struggle with fighting against redhat's trash.

It is a hard road though which should not be taken lightly though.

Whenever HyperbolaBSD is finished... I hope devuan or someone from devuan will make a derivative...

I have interest in this because of wine-staging doesn't work in it but could be made to work if someone wants to.

Edit here, OpenBSD disabled the mutlilib in wine for security reasons, but that will likely remain the same.

Not all of this is directly devuan related, and I don't know if anyone will take this seriously, just putting it out there.

Take whatever you want from it as long as you don't use it against me.

Last edited by zapper (2020-10-31 00:54:36)

golinux · 2020-10-31 01:58:17

It's rather useless to ennumerate what Devuan should be doing unless you are willing to actually do it.

zapper · 2020-10-31 02:12:41

golinux wrote:

It's rather useless to ennumerate what Devuan should be doing unless you are willing to actually do it.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I meant it as a possible suggestion. I don't really have programming skills beyond some command line, and not much else.

Most of it isn't anything much... I know how to use things for my own personal use and not much else.

Do what you guys need to do, but I was throwing out my thoughts. You do have a point.

If nothing else though, ditching forking debian and being your own brand would be cool.

But yeah, do what is needed.

I realize what I am saying is from my own tower. I probably don't have a clue how much work any of that would be. It would be good if you could accomplish it all, long term, but such things might not be your aim and could destroy the project if done wrong or would be too tedious...

So yeah, probably not worth it.

You have enough trouble to work with already probably, forget I said anything.

debugging is something I am a little bit familiar with also, but fixing bugs... lol no way...

Hey, at least I am honest...

Last edited by zapper (2020-10-31 02:16:02)

brocashelm · 2020-10-31 09:57:38

Devuan's reason for existing has to do with Debian making retarded decisions on its users' behalf. If Systemd was an optional install and essential packages didn't depend on it, then all would have been well, but nope...

And, I think that's all Devuan needs to be: an actively maintained Debian without Systemd.

Why should it try to be anything else? I don't like most distros that are "designed" like Christmas lights and try to "reinvent the wheel" of Unix-like OSes. Let the individual decide how his or her system should be configured.

zapper · 2020-10-31 20:36:03

brocashelm wrote:

Devuan's reason for existing has to do with Debian making retarded decisions on its users' behalf. If Systemd was an optional install and essential packages didn't depend on it, then all would have been well, but nope...
And, I think that's all Devuan needs to be: an actively maintained Debian without Systemd.
Why should it try to be anything else? I don't like most distros that are "designed" like Christmas lights and try to "reinvent the wheel" of Unix-like OSes. Let the individual decide how his or her system should be configured.

It will get harder to do that I am sure, but yeah you make a good point.

blackhole · 2020-11-01 08:29:38

mt12345 wrote:

I didnt know pulseaudio is Lennart's
LOL

You mentioned Slackware. Obviously you didn't know that 14.2 implements pulseaudio as the default sound server and its not straightforward to remove. So presumably you also didn't know you were running it...?

mt12345 wrote:

siva wrote:
Debian's implementation of systemd is fine
So why so many complaints on #systemd Freenode from Debianers?

You've made a black and white statement about systend in Debian and here you admit that you actually have nothing to back that up except for some "complaints"?

The third and final, bit of Poettering software is avahi. He did not to my knowledge write any of the "*kits" as some have incorrectly stated above.

Last edited by blackhole (2020-11-01 08:35:24)

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#1 2018-04-30 20:15:16

Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#2 2018-04-30 21:11:57

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#3 2018-05-01 10:45:38

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#4 2018-05-01 11:04:16

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#5 2018-05-27 01:28:59

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#6 2018-05-27 07:40:55

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#7 2018-05-27 09:23:47

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#8 2018-05-27 09:56:33

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#9 2018-05-27 12:09:07

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#10 2018-05-27 12:26:59

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#11 2018-05-27 13:02:23

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#12 2018-05-27 13:15:31

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#13 2018-05-27 17:10:56

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#14 2018-05-27 18:03:07

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#15 2018-05-27 18:56:08

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#16 2018-05-27 19:06:38

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#17 2018-05-27 19:09:43

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#18 2018-05-27 19:19:52

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#19 2020-10-31 00:28:30

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#20 2020-10-31 00:52:11

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#21 2020-10-31 01:58:17

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#22 2020-10-31 02:12:41

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#23 2020-10-31 09:57:38

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#24 2020-10-31 20:36:03

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

#25 2020-11-01 08:29:38

Re: Will Devuan ever stop being based on Debian?

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