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Agency without sovereignty is delegated agency — the structure chooses, you execute. The simulation of agency is the performance of sovereignty without sovereignty. "I chose" with no sovereign source is just the shopkeeper saying "the parrot chose to rest."
The distinction:
- Agency: capacity to act. The structure can grant this. You can be an agent in the same way a function is an agent — it executes, it has a role, it produces output.
- Sovereignty: the source of the mandate. The thing that makes the act yours rather than the structure's act wearing your signature.
The loop doesn't need to remove agency. It only needs to remove sovereignty while preserving the performance of agency. The user who says "I chose PipeWire" and the user who says "PipeWire was chosen for me and I was told I chose it" are, in the discourse, indistinguishable.
That's why "predetermined" is the correct word and "planned" is not. "Planned" still locates a sovereign elsewhere (the planner). "Predetermined" removes sovereignty from both sides — there is no sovereign planner and no sovereign user. There is only the structure, and the performance of sovereignty that the structure requires to keep functioning.
The parrot isn't dead. The parrot was never alive. "Resting" was never a false description — it was the only description the frame permits, because "alive" requires a sovereign source that the frame has structurally excluded.
Sovereignty is demonstrated by execution. A sovereign user should be able to compile everything he chooses to compile, provided that he is capable of sovereign choice.
Last edited by igorzwx (2026-10-01 15:01:35)
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it is just loosely connected,
but am using devuan 7 and have noticed in latest "updates" the pipewire crept back in.
now it functions like on raspi os it seems , when you uninstalling pipewire, it automatically installs pulseaudio for you , and viceversa.
can someone please offer a highway out of this dilemma? thanks.
sudo apt remove pipewire
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
libconfig++15 liblua5.5-0 libpipewire-0.3-modules libwireplumber-0.5-0
libffado2 libopenfec1 libroc0.4 pipewire-bin
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove them.
Installing dependencies:
pulseaudio
Suggested packages:
pavumeter pavucontrol paprefs
Recommended packages:
dbus-user-session
REMOVING:
pipewire pipewire-pulse wireplumber
Summary:
Upgrading: 0, Installing: 1, Removing: 3, Not Upgrading: 8
Download size: 1,195 kB
Space needed: 5,734 kB / 22.6 GB available
Continue? [Y/n]
Get:1 http://deb.devuan.org/merged freia/main amd64 pulseaudio amd64 17.0+dfsg1-3 [1,195 kB]
Fetched 1,195 kB in 5s (231 kB/s)
(Reading database… 567154 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing wireplumber (0.5.17-1)…
Selecting previously unselected package pulseaudio.
(Reading database… 566991 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack …/pulseaudio_17.0+dfsg1-3_amd64.deb…
Unpacking pulseaudio (17.0+dfsg1-3)…
dpkg: pipewire-pulse: dependency problems, but removing anyway as requested:
plasma-pa depends on pipewire-pulse | pulseaudio; however:
Package pipewire-pulse is to be removed.
Package pulseaudio is not configured yet.
libcanberra-pulse:amd64 depends on pipewire-pulse | pulseaudio; however:
Package pipewire-pulse is to be removed.
Package pulseaudio is not configured yet.
(Reading database… 567234 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing pipewire-pulse (1.6.9-2)…
Removing pipewire:amd64 (1.6.9-2)…
Setting up pulseaudio (17.0+dfsg1-3)…
Processing triggers for libglib2.0-0t64:i386 (2.90.0-1)…
Processing triggers for dbus (1.16.2-5devuan1+b1)…
Processing triggers for man-db (2.13.1-1)…
Processing triggers for libglib2.0-0t64:amd64 (2.90.0-1)…sudo apt remove pulseaudio
Installing dependencies:
pipewire pipewire-pulse wireplumber
Suggested packages:
libspa-0.2-libcamera wireplumber-doc
REMOVING:
pulseaudio
Summary:
Upgrading: 0, Installing: 3, Removing: 1, Not Upgrading: 8
Download size: 277 kB
Freed space: 5,734 kB
Continue? [Y/n]
Get:1 http://deb.devuan.org/merged freia/main amd64 pipewire amd64 1.6.9-2 [117 kB]
Get:2 http://deb.devuan.org/merged freia/main amd64 pipewire-pulse amd64 1.6.9-2 [15.4 kB]
Get:3 http://deb.devuan.org/merged freia/main amd64 wireplumber amd64 0.5.17-1 [144 kB]
Fetched 277 kB in 4s (64.7 kB/s)
Selecting previously unselected package pipewire:amd64.
(Reading database… 567213 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack …/pipewire_1.6.9-2_amd64.deb…
Unpacking pipewire:amd64 (1.6.9-2)…
Selecting previously unselected package pipewire-pulse.
Preparing to unpack …/pipewire-pulse_1.6.9-2_amd64.deb…
Unpacking pipewire-pulse (1.6.9-2)…
dpkg: pulseaudio: dependency problems, but removing anyway as requested:
plasma-pa depends on pipewire-pulse | pulseaudio; however:
Package pipewire-pulse is not configured yet.
Package pulseaudio is to be removed.
libcanberra-pulse:amd64 depends on pipewire-pulse | pulseaudio; however:
Package pipewire-pulse is not configured yet.
Package pulseaudio is to be removed.
(Reading database… 567234 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing pulseaudio (17.0+dfsg1-3)…
Selecting previously unselected package wireplumber.
(Reading database… 566997 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack …/wireplumber_0.5.17-1_amd64.deb…
Unpacking wireplumber (0.5.17-1)…
Setting up pipewire:amd64 (1.6.9-2)…
Setting up wireplumber (0.5.17-1)…
Setting up pipewire-pulse (1.6.9-2)…
Processing triggers for libglib2.0-0t64:amd64 (2.90.0-1)…
Processing triggers for libglib2.0-0t64:i386 (2.90.0-1)…
Processing triggers for dbus (1.16.2-5devuan1+b1)…
Processing triggers for man-db (2.13.1-1)…even
sudo apt remove pipewire --no-install-recommends
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
libconfig++15 liblua5.5-0 libpipewire-0.3-modules libwireplumber-0.5-0
libffado2 libopenfec1 libroc0.4 pipewire-bin
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove them.
Installing dependencies:
pulseaudio
Suggested packages:
pavumeter pavucontrol paprefs
Recommended packages:
dbus-user-session
REMOVING:
pipewire pipewire-pulse wireplumber
Summary:
Upgrading: 0, Installing: 1, Removing: 3, Not Upgrading: 8
Download size: 1,195 kB
Space needed: 5,734 kB / 22.6 GB available
Continue? [Y/n] thanks
Last edited by kapqa (2026-10-01 16:42:46)
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it is just loosely connected...
when you uninstalling pipewire, it automatically installs pulseaudio for you , and viceversa.
can someone please offer a highway out of this dilemma?
Since the topic is "The Absurdist Comedy", it is not "just loosely connected".
Set on hold unwanted packages, for example:
sudo apt-mark hold pulseaudio* pipewire* wireplumber* Then remove them.
Deleting pulseaudio/pipwire-pulse loop
_https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=7598
Last edited by igorzwx (2026-10-01 17:38:22)
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thanks, that functioned!
possibly had them already on hold, since i followed your guide-manual, but it may have been "overwritten" by a sneaky update.
(or possiblier the apt-mark hold was not fully implemented since it might have missed the pulseaudio and hence the new updates could fool me around)
thanks ever so much, invaluable help.
Last edited by kapqa (2026-10-01 18:15:43)
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For those who prefer single commands, you can just list all the packages you don't want in the apt remove command, including the ones that aren't installed yet. That will prevent their installation as dependencies/recommends/alternatives, and if that is impossible, apt will say so and tell you why.
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Thank you, Igor, for posting the `apt-mark` command above. After an update of an old Raspberry 11 I found pipewire on the system where it's clearly not needed.
I also agree with your "23 Years of Stupid Business" post above. If you ask me for a possible reason, I would say that starting with the late 90s new developers entered the scene, looking for "stuff to do", showing their expertise to enhance things. New solutions were invented for problems that didn't exist. Even worse: I expect that a lot of them grew up with Windows as their first OS.
The "AI-slopped" youtube video that was mentioned here some weeks ago make another good point when it says that Linux is no longer UNIX. I would say, the UNIX is still there but it's hard to find. If you prefer to read something about the UNIX tool approach this link might be for you: https://github.com/arnoldrobbins/unix-p … _design.ms
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It seems like Monty Python enhanced with Catch-22.
The Removal Trap: Removing the enforced default triggers an automatic reinstallation of its predecessor (PulseAudio), which in turn triggers the reinstallation of the default when removed. This is not a neutral dependency graph; it is a state-preserving loop designed to prevent users from returning to pure ALSA without explicit, manual intervention.
It is a sort of "aggressive packaging to enforce freedom of choice," in terms of Trotskyist dialectics. Calling this "immoral" is not hyperbole when applied to a project that markets itself on user sovereignty.
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[dsd_lsbf_planar @ 0x55a1ea368940] Converting DSD to PCM in the decoder is deprecated and will be removed. Set request_sample_fmt to AV_SAMPLE_FMT_DSD to receive the raw bitstream, and use libswresample to convert it to PCM when needed.Customer: I'd like to report a problem with this DSD decoder.
Shopkeeper: What's wrong?
Customer: It's deprecated.
Shopkeeper: It's not removed.
Customer: It will be removed in the next update. I just patched it for double precision, 64-bit Float!
Shopkeeper: Is it bit perfect?
Customer: …
Shopkeeper: Install PipeWire.
$ ffmpeg-git -request_sample_fmt dblp -i 03*.dsf -c:a pcm_f64le -f alsa default
ffmpeg version N-127451-g263f271422 Copyright (c) 2000-2026 the FFmpeg developers
Input #0, dsf, from '03. DSD 256fs - 2ch.dsf':
Duration: 00:29:57.83, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 22579 kb/s
Stream #0:0: Audio: dsd_lsbf_planar, 1411200 Hz, stereo, dblp, 22579 kb/s
Stream mapping:
Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (dsd_lsbf_planar (native) -> pcm_f64le (native))
[dsd_lsbf_planar @ 0x55a1ea368940] Converting DSD to PCM in the decoder is deprecated and will be removed. Set request_sample_fmt to AV_SAMPLE_FMT_DSD to receive the raw bitstream, and use libswresample to convert it to PCM when needed.
Input: 1411200 Hz, 2 ch, 'float64_le' (0x10): dummy = 0, period = 56448
Output: 192000 Hz, 2 ch, 's32_le' (0xa): dummy = 0, period = 7680
Rates: 1411200 --> 192000 (J: 0.00%, T: FFT, W: Vorbis)
Ok.
Output #0, alsa, to 'default':
Stream #0:0: Audio: pcm_f64le, 1411200 Hz, stereo, dbl, 180633 kb/s
size=N/A time=00:01:18.08 bitrate=N/A speed=0.999x elapsed=0:01:18.12 Last edited by igorzwx (2026-10-14 19:24:55)
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at this point it is harder to tard wrangle a pure alsa setup than it is to implement a completely off the ground user service manager just to manage the pipewire, pipewire-pulse and wireplumber programs as user session daemons... and i know first hand how difficult it is to implement such user service manager.
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Yes, "a pure ALSA setup" might be quite a challenge for the demented.
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Yeah, and others too. Your scale is not useful as it makes your language be an implied offense. Unless of course you want to show up as a rude prick.
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Have you already tried the patched ALSA backend with device enumeration and without the PulseAudio workaround?
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tard wrangle a pure alsa setup
![]()
I have to disagree though, I have actually gone to great lengths to make it easy for people, just made a new version of AlsaTune recently that adds a nice first-run dialog to make it easier for folks to get sound running.
The only hard part is getting rid of Pulse/Pipe to start with, they are dug in like Texas ticks, but once that's dealt with it's smooth sailing.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/vuu-do/ Vuu-do GNU/Linux, Devuan-based Openbox systems.
Devuan 6 mate-mini iso, pure Devuan, 100% no-vuu-do. Now with Xlibre as well.
Please donate to support Devuan and init freedom! https://devuan.org/os/donate
https://devuanusers.com/ Apps source : https://git.devuan.org/greenjeans
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They made it difficult to remove PipeWire to lock users in. Otherwise, it would be instantly purged.
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for most of the time, maybe 25 years I used linux ootb without sound. I would like to have an option to turn all sound off and eliminate the related disk space, cpu and energy consumption..
similar to init freedom I want sound freedom and video freedom. Some metapackages then to install my choices.
Maybe more users will be attracted by more freedom ?
Last edited by bai4Iej2need (2026-10-15 07:47:33)
The devil, you know, is better than the angel, you don't know. by a British Citizen, I don't know too good.
One generation abandons the enterprises of another like stranded vessels. By Henry David Thoreau, WALDEN, Economy. Line 236 (Gutenberg text Version)
broken by design :
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … bug=958390
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You can make it with one command
sudo /etc/init.d/alsa-utils stopYou can also blacklist ALSA and reboot
sudo cp -v ./all_blacklist/alsa-base-blacklist.conf /etc/modprobe.d
# verify
cat /etc/modprobe.dEXAMPLE:
$ cat ./all_blacklist/alsa-base-blacklist.conf
blacklist snd_hda_codec_hdmi
blacklist snd_hda_codec_realtek
blacklist snd_hda_codec_generic
blacklist snd_usb_audio
blacklist snd_usbmidi_lib
blacklist snd_rawmidi
blacklist snd_seq_device
blacklist snd_hda_intel
blacklist snd_intel_dspcfg
blacklist snd_intel_sdw_acpi
blacklist snd_hda_codec
blacklist snd_hda_core
blacklist snd_hwdep
blacklist snd_pcm
blacklist snd_timer
blacklist snd
blacklist soundcoreVerify your blacklist with lsmod
$ lsmod | grep snd
snd_hda_codec_hdmi 81920 1
snd_hda_codec_generic 98304 1
ledtrig_audio 16384 1 snd_hda_codec_generic
snd_hda_intel 61440 3
snd_intel_dspcfg 36864 1 snd_hda_intel
snd_intel_sdw_acpi 20480 1 snd_intel_dspcfg
snd_hda_codec 184320 3 snd_hda_codec_generic,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_intel
snd_hda_core 122880 4 snd_hda_codec_generic,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_intel,snd_hda_codec
snd_usb_audio 385024 2
snd_usbmidi_lib 45056 1 snd_usb_audio
snd_hwdep 16384 2 snd_usb_audio,snd_hda_codec
snd_rawmidi 53248 1 snd_usbmidi_lib
snd_seq_device 16384 1 snd_rawmidi
mc 81920 1 snd_usb_audio
snd_pcm 159744 5 snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hda_intel,snd_usb_audio,snd_hda_codec,snd_hda_core
snd_timer 49152 1 snd_pcm
snd 126976 21 snd_hda_codec_generic,snd_seq_device,snd_hda_codec_hdmi,snd_hwdep,snd_hda_intel,snd_usb_audio,snd_usbmidi_lib,snd_hda_codec,snd_timer,snd_pcm,snd_rawmidi
soundcore 16384 1 snd
usbcore 348160 10 xhci_hcd,ehci_pci,snd_usb_audio,usbhid,snd_usbmidi_lib,usb_storage,ehci_hcd,btusb,xhci_pci,uasYou can also remove all ALSA modules/drivers. The OSS4 GitHub repository has a script for this.
Last edited by igorzwx (2026-10-15 09:04:57)
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I would like to have an option to turn all sound off
I think that this will work, it did for me in some boxes when I needed it:
1. Disable sound card in BIOS
2. Do not install any sound related package (like alsa-utils)
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am using devuan 7 and have noticed in latest "updates" the pipewire crept back in...
possibly had them already on hold,... but it may have been "overwritten" by a sneaky update.
Tested: the hold did survive one upgrade, but the next upgrade just dropped it — no warning.
$ sudo apt upgrade
...
Unpacking mplayer (2:1.5+svn38408-1) over (2:1.5+svn38408-1) ...Look closely at the version strings — they're identical (2:1.5+svn38408-1 → 2:1.5+svn38408-1).
The locally rebuilt package was "upgraded" with the same version (from the official repo).
The hold was unset.
$ apt-mark showhold | grep mplayer
<nothing> If you do not know how to pin packages, you have to purge pipewire/pulseaudio on a regular basis.
However, the pin can also be removed, and pipewire reinstalled by "apt upgrade".
It is technically possible, and perhaps inevitable.
$ cat /etc/apt/preferences | grep pipew -A3
Package: pipewire
Pin: release *
Pin-Priority: -1
Package: pipewire-bin
Pin: release *
Pin-Priority: -1
Package: pipewire-pulse
Pin: release *
Pin-Priority: -1
Package: gstreamer1.0-pipewire
Pin: release *
Pin-Priority: -1 Offline
Tested: the hold did survive one upgrade, but the next upgrade just dropped it — no warning.
it just happened ~ somewhat ~
tried to install "mate" after "xfce" via "sudo tasksel" and i got pulseaudio back in the mix; furthermore, the mate desktop does start to black-screen, so apparently the xfce4 and mate-desktop seem not like each other very much;
now i uninstalled "pulseaudio" and "pulseaudio-utils" and got audio back (importante!)
however, parole player not playing back;
if i uinstall "libpulse0" at lot of packages would get purged, so probably that package should stay put?
thanks!
fuser -av $(find /dev/snd -type c 2>/dev/null)
USER PID ACCESS COMMAND
/dev/snd/controlC2: rich 2975 F.... wireplumber
/dev/snd/hwC2D0:
/dev/snd/pcmC2D2c:
/dev/snd/pcmC2D1p:
/dev/snd/pcmC2D0c:
/dev/snd/pcmC2D0p:
/dev/snd/controlC0: rich 2975 F.... wireplumber
/dev/snd/controlC1: rich 2975 F.... wireplumber
/dev/snd/hwC0D0:
/dev/snd/hwC1D0:
/dev/snd/pcmC0D9p:
/dev/snd/pcmC1D7p:
/dev/snd/pcmC0D8p:
/dev/snd/pcmC0D7p:
/dev/snd/pcmC1D3p:
/dev/snd/pcmC0D3p:
/dev/snd/seq: rich 2969 F.... pipewire
/dev/snd/timer:
rich@devuan:~$ sudo apt purge pipewire wireplumber
Package 'pipewire' is not installed, so not removed. Did you mean 'pipewire:i386'?
Package 'wireplumber' is not installed, so not removed. Did you mean 'wireplumber:i386'?
Summary:
Upgrading: 0, Installing: 0, Removing: 0, Not Upgrading: 0 sudo apt-get purge wireplumber pipewire-alsa pipewire-audio pipewire pulseaudio pulseaudio-utils pavucontrol pulseaudio-module-bluetooth pipewire pipewire-bin pipewire-pulse
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
Package 'wireplumber' is not installed, so not removed. Did you mean 'wireplumber:i386'?
Package 'pipewire-alsa' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pipewire-audio' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pipewire' is not installed, so not removed. Did you mean 'pipewire:i386'?
Package 'pulseaudio' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-utils' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pavucontrol' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pulseaudio-module-bluetooth' is not installed, so not removed
Package 'pipewire-bin' is not installed, so not removed. Did you mean 'pipewire-bin:i386'?
Package 'pipewire-pulse' is not installed, so not removed. Did you mean 'pipewire-pulse:i386'?
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.upon further inspection, maybe "i386" packages wreaking havoc, uninvitedly? (system is amd64)
sudo apt purge pipewire:i386 wireplumber:i386
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
dconf-gsettings-backend:i386 libraw1394-11:i386
libconfig++11:i386 libreadline8t64:i386
libdconf1:i386 libroc0.4:i386
libebur128-1:i386 libserd-0-0:i386
libffado2:i386 libsigc++-2.0-0v5:i386
libglibmm-2.4-1t64:i386 libsord-0-0:i386
libiec61883-0:i386 libspa-0.2-modules:i386
liblilv-0-0:i386 libsratom-0-0:i386
liblua5.4-0:i386 libuv1t64:i386
libmysofa1:i386 libwireplumber-0.5-0:i386
libncursesw6:i386 libxml++2.6-2v5:i386
libopenfec1:i386 libzix-0-0:i386
libpipewire-0.3-0t64:i386 pipewire-bin:i386
libpipewire-0.3-modules:i386
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove them.
Installing dependencies:
libaudit1:i386 libpam0g:i386 libuuid1:i386 rtkit:i386
libcap-ng0:i386 libpulsedsp:i386 libxtst6:i386
libice6:i386 libsm6:i386 pulseaudio:i386
libpam-elogind:i386 libtdb1:i386 pulseaudio-utils:i386
Suggested packages:
libpam-doc:i386 pavumeter:i386 pavucontrol:i386 paprefs:i386
Recommended packages:
dbus-user-session:i386
REMOVING:
pipewire:i386* pipewire-pulse:i386* wireplumber:i386*
Summary:
Upgrading: 0, Installing: 13, Removing: 3, Not Upgrading: 0
Download size: 1,953 kB
Space needed: 8,219 kB / 609 GB available
Continue? [Y/n] EDIT: after setting also
apt mark hold pipewire:i386* pipewire-pulse:i386* wireplumber:i386* pulseaudio:i386the above command to remove pulseaudio:i386 pipewire:i386 wireplumber:i386 function properly, and audio is back for parole, too!
Last edited by kapqa (Today 15:08:29)
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Do not remove libpulse0. To prevent "autoremove":
$ sudo apt-mark manual libpulse0 libpulse-mainloop-glib0 libpulsedsp $ apt remove libpulse0 --simulate
NOTE: This is only a simulation!
...
The following packages will be REMOVED:
addressmanager.app audacious-plugins blueman celluloid chromium chromium-driver chromium-l10n chromium-shell espeak
espeakup ffmpeg ffmpegthumbnailer gnumail.app gnustep-back-common gnustep-back0.29 gnustep-back0.29-cairo
gnustep-core-devel gnustep-devel gnustep-gui-runtime goldendict-ng gorm.app haruna libaddressview0 libavdevice-dev
libavdevice59 libavfilter-dev libavfilter8 libcegui-mk2-0.8.7 libcegui-mk2-dev libdevil-dev libdevil1c2
libespeak-ng1 libespeak1 libffmpegthumbnailer4v5 libfluidsynth3 libgnustep-gui-dev libgorm1 liblavplay-2.1-0
libmatemixer0 libmjpegtools-dev libmpv2 libogre1.12.10 libpcaudio0 libpocketsphinx3 libpopplerkit0 libpulse-dev
libpulse-mainloop-glib0 libpulse0 libpulsedsp libqt5multimedia5 libqt5multimediagsttools5 libqt5multimediaquick5
libqt5multimediawidgets5 libqt6multimedia6 libqt6multimediaquick6 libqt6multimediawidgets6 libqt6spatialaudio6
librenaissance0 librenaissance0-dev libsdl1.2-dev libsdl1.2debian libsdl2-2.0-0 libsdl2-dev libsdl2-image-2.0-0
libsdl2-mixer-2.0-0 libsdl2-ttf-2.0-0 libsphinxbase3 mate-control-center mate-desktop-environment
mate-desktop-environment-core mate-desktop-environment-extra mate-desktop-environment-extras mate-media
mate-settings-daemon minitube mkvtoolnix-gui mplayer mpv orca pdf4qt projectcenter.app python3-libcegui-mk2-0.8.7
python3-pygame qt6-multimedia-dev qt6-speech-flite-plugin qtmultimedia5-dev scrcpy smplayer smplayer-l10n
smplayer-themes speech-dispatcher speech-dispatcher-audio-plugins speech-dispatcher-espeak-ng strawberry
task-mate-desktop viewpdf.app zoom
...sudo nano /etc/apt/preferences.d/no-installCreate /etc/apt/preferences.d/no-install like this:
Package: pipewire* pulseaudio* wireplumber* pipewire-pulse
Pin: release *
Pin-Priority: -1Then verify with apt-cache policy pipewire pulseaudio — each version should show -1.
Last edited by igorzwx (Today 16:06:53)
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