[SOLVED] "A future for the i386 architecture" and other good(???) news

yeti · 2023-12-16 18:42:56

Bits from the Release Team: Cambridge sprint update
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00003.html

siva · 2023-12-18 16:04:39

Great share, yeti. I wonder what the stats are on consumer *nix users on i386 processors nowadays. I only see them in niche cases anymore.

yeti · 2023-12-19 09:51:17

Why turn them into trash?
I've Devuan on a Netbook.

FreeBSD and OpenBSD announced to treat 32bit PCs as 2nd class architectures too.
Great times for NetBSD... :-Þ

PedroReina · 2023-12-19 12:22:04

siva wrote:

I wonder what the stats are on consumer *nix users on i386 processors nowadays. I only see them in niche cases anymore.

Quite. But there are out there very capable only-32bits computers I think wrong to just trash. One example: my Qosmio

http://pedroreina.net/hardware/qosmio/

siva · 2023-12-19 14:23:01

Maybe devuan will try to support 32-bit long term.

yeti · 2023-12-20 02:06:42

siva wrote:

Maybe devuan will try to support 32-bit long term.

I think that's too optimistic.
I want to be proven wrong.
I will not bet on this to happen.

UnixMan1230 · 2023-12-29 23:32:58

As of now the only thing that would need to be provided by a downstream distro is the kernel, as it seems. But time will tell how bad the damage will be, Trixie still hasn't even been released.

yeti · 2025-01-01 07:39:31

Good new for 32bit haters!

debian-devel-announce/2024/12/msg00002 mentions:

From: Cyril Brulebois <kibi@debian.org>
Subject: Debian Installer Trixie Alpha 1 release
Newsgroups: linux.debian.announce.devel, linux.debian.maint.boot
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 17:20:02 +0100 (15 hours, 4 minutes, 32 seconds ago)
Organization: Debian
Reply-To: debian-boot@lists.debian.org

(((SNIP)))

Important changes in this release
=================================

Many changes have been happening during this release cycle already, and
this announcement isn't meant to be exhaustive. Instead, let's stick to
some high-level view of the most important changes.

There are major updates on the hardware support side:
 - We're no longer building an installer for the armel and i386
   architectures, even if they remain in the archive at the moment.

Camtaf · 2025-01-01 10:36:08

Looks like 32bit will have to rely on the smaller distros, such as TinyCore, SliTaz, Puppy, etc.

yeti · 2025-01-01 10:51:22

Generating images using debootstrap and friends will still work for a while.
When De__an no longer is an alternative, I'll quit using Linux.

pcalvert · 2025-01-01 20:07:50

Alpine, NixOS, and Void still support 32-bit hardware.

brocashelm · 2025-01-02 06:31:13

What a way to kick off the new year. Yes, amazing news. Yes, it's time to retire 32-bit systems. Yes, everyone should be using the latest Intel and AMD products by now, especially with AI "features".

It is so truly revolutionary on Debian's part to push further towards being a rolling release distro. All they wanted was to make it easier to communicate with your multiple processes, they said. Oh, and then when that wasn't enough, they also wanted to make it more user-friendly to start your system and easily manage your services. Even after all of that, they still wanted to use memory-safe programming languages to make it easier to code your software, and now they want to make your graphical session more secure and modern.

Hooray for progress! Linux (without the GNU, because we shouldn't scare away newbies) is finally letting go of stability and embracing on-demand updates!

RedGreen925 · 2025-01-02 07:18:22

Hooray for progress! Linux (without the GNU, because we shouldn't scare away newbies) is finally letting go of stability and embracing on-demand updates

Yes they truly have gone downhill in that regards, though it is not the first time they have dropped an arch. With mostly the same reaction seen here every time as it happens. Same with the systemd garbage they foist onto their users forgetting the one tool for every action keep it simple *nix philosophy. While it expands ever more into every god damn part of the system with each release. So the Microsoft plants in Linux can slowly gain more control over ever f'n thing done on those systems. They don't even hide the agenda anymore and Debian still goes along with it. Here in a couple of days it will be four months (according to the Ubuntu changelog for the fix) since they ship a broken KDE that will not connect to a samba share at all. Despite the fix being in Ubuntu for all of those months and all it is, is a simple re-compile of the Ubuntu packages to fix it as they are binary compatible now that will install and work on a Debian based system. Having seen it in the past I have no doubt that they will ship those packages in that same broken state with Trixie when it goes out the door..

Last edited by RedGreen925 (2025-01-02 07:22:29)

blackhole · 2025-01-02 09:22:46

I doubt i386 is significant enough to be a target for the likes of MS.

The real project for forced hardware obsolescence has been Windows 11 and ending of support for older Core architecture CPUs. i386 is likely just being phased out due to it being very niche these days. You can get a Pentium 4 from 20 years ago and install an amd64 OS on it after all.

As mentioned above, FreeBSD and OpenBSD have all abandoned architectures over the years. Dragonfly BSD dropped i386 over 10 years ago.

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn · 2025-01-02 10:15:06

ditto ^^^^ what they said. embrace/extend/extinguish. elvis has left the building. that is all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher · 2025-01-02 14:21:33

There are still many people who have to and/or need to use 32bit systems. Many people and schools (in less developed countries) wouldn't have a computer if they hadn't received an old 32bit computer freely from those who were willing to donate them.

...but hey, they're not worth supporting, are they? After all, they aren't able to donate any money to Micro$oft, MACostly, BSDs, Linux, or any systems.

If not, donate 64bit computers to them.

blackhole · 2025-01-02 18:22:25

Someone has to volunteer and step up to do the work to maintain an i386 or other obsolete architecture OS. Charities may provide obsolete computers to the developing world, but they don't provide or maintain the OS.

Soon there will be tons of old amd64 hardware up for grabs, quite ironically thanks to Windows 11. At that point any perceived problems with phasing out i386 will be much smaller, decisions much easier for those maintaining an OS.

The real issue here, is the prevalence of IME/PSP in newer amd64 CPUs along with faux security features such as Secureboot, TPM chips, and as time goes on the choice is getting much narrower to the point where the x86 platform is no longer a viable choice for anyone who values privacy. Make no mistake about it : MS and its OEM cartel were up to their necks in this mutual back scratching.

Intel walked away from spectre/meltdown with barely a scratch - fast forward to the present and it's going to sell a lot more CPUs thanks to MS Windows 11...

The sad reality is that the whole x86 platform is a lost cause and the key players in that platform are some of the biggest donors to the Linux kernel and are bankrolling and steering projects such as wayland, systemd and Debian.

Last edited by blackhole (2025-01-02 18:23:25)

greenjeans · 2025-01-02 18:44:26

The issue of making compatible OS'es for old hardware, especially for folks with little financial means, has always been very important to me, it's one of the main reasons I do things. And I started out in 32 bit and stayed that way for a long time.

But it's been over 20 years now since the first 64 bit cpu made it's entrance, wouldn't most of the used computers that could be donated be 64 bit these days? Mostly circa 2005-2015, I see people literally throwing these things away.

delgado · 2025-01-02 21:28:22

On the other hand: Offering i386-install-iso's makes people install linux on scrap computers. And then it sucks ... .

Personally, I bought my last 32-bit-x86-computer in 1999 (0.5 GHz Intel Pentium with 0.4 GB RAM). Probably it would still work, but it's gone.

blackhole · 2025-01-03 08:51:49

The problem with this older amd64 hardware is the perceived security flaws in those chips. This is all marketing strategy - MS are happy if Linux or the BSDs are perceived as something you install on old junk, so there is no incentive for them to take any interest in killing i386 - you can squarely blame the Debian project / lack of maintainers for that.

The next generation of "old junk" is the 64 bit hardware which is vulnerable to spectre/meltdown which MS intentionally ended support for with Windows 11. Again MS won't have too many problems with Linux and BSDs being installed on that - but they also know that many users will get Windows 11 installed on that "unsupported" hardware regardless. This is the same mindset, as "at least they're running Windows". See "security theatre" for what it is.

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn · 2025-01-03 12:16:18

have been watching risc-v with interest for several years now.

these boards ship with ubuntu pre-installed(i know...ugh)

https://www.sifive.com/boards/hifive-premier-p550

yeti · 2025-01-03 12:25:32

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn wrote:

have been watching risc-v with interest for several years now.
these boards ship with ubuntu pre-installed(i know...ugh)
https://www.sifive.com/boards/hifive-premier-p550

OK: We just switch to RISC-V and forget about i386.

=> SOLVED!

\o/ ___( THANKS! )

blackhole · 2025-01-03 13:17:35

Just need to get a bucketload of money from somewhere and we're good to go...

yeti · 2025-01-03 13:25:25

This is what I'm waiting for:
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=53863#p53863

... but this is still derailing the topic of this thread (as is the RISC-V glitch), so answers to this please in its own threads.

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn · 2025-01-03 13:44:38

@yeti and all, we are already in the "off-topic" area and discussing "architecture(s)" IS what we are already doing.

so i see no reason not to cross-post(yeti-again, pun intended!):

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=53863#p53863

https://archive.fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/rv_selfhosting_all_the_way_down/

we/us users/developers/engineers/etc. are all in this together and as long as there are people willing AND hardware available...and the two have access to each other(physical people AND physical hardware, no qemu please) then we will continue to see some antique architecture software availability.

wonder what architecture and operating system Voyager is using?

https://science.slashdot.org/story/24/12/21/0612239/voyager-1-signals-from-interstellar-space-detected-by-amateur-astronomers-on-1950s-telescope

amazing.

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#1 2023-12-16 18:42:56