Ustable and Testing Systemd.

MabNesta · 2023-10-10 08:33:31

I noticed today 10-10-23 both Unstable and Testing are working on systemd ,according to Distrowatch,
we already have wayland, what is going on?

Last edited by MabNesta (2023-10-10 08:36:07)

Altoid · 2023-10-10 10:19:34

Hello:

MabNesta wrote:

... both Unstable and Testing are working on systemd, according to Distrowatch ...
... what is going on?

Could you please provide a link to the page where Distrowatch published that?
I cannot find it.

Thanks in advance.

A.

MabNesta · 2023-10-11 06:21:18

Here is the link: https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan

fsmithred · 2023-10-11 10:04:44

There must be something wrong with whatever generates that list. There's no systemd package in devuan.

root@ceres:/# apt policy systemd
systemd:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: (none)
  Version table:

Same as the rest of the banned packages.
https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt

Altoid · 2023-10-11 10:20:24

Hello:

MabNesta wrote:

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan

I see that both Unstable and Testing have OpenRC, runit, SysV under "Feature" -> "Init Software".
systemd is not a listed option.

That said, I also see it is listed as in the "Package" column but systemd is not an available package in the Devuan repositories.

There would seem to be a discrepancy in the Distrowatch page.
Either that or, being Testing/Unstable releases, the package is there as a place holder and not used.
Not a dev/maintainer so I cannot say much more.

Have you tried setting up "Testing" or "Unstable" to check is systemd is effectively used?

Best,

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2023-10-11 10:21:23)

ralph.ronnquist · 2023-10-11 11:23:37

There are a number of systemd* binary packages (thus originating with systemd source) even in daedalus; perhaps that's what's reported in distrowatch ... check which ones at https://pkginfo.devuan.org/systemd*

alexkemp · 2023-10-11 12:13:41

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

There are a number of systemd* binary packages

Is that the reason for the many systemd references in the file-system?

$ la /var/lib/systemd/ | wc -l
4
$ la /var/lib/systemd/deb-systemd-user-helper-enabled/ | wc -l
26

MabNesta · 2023-10-12 06:52:35

Distrowatch is a site that many, including myself, consult when comparing distributions and

deciding whether or not to try them.

Star for example is shown as https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=star

Altoid · 2023-10-12 12:02:37

Hello:

MabNesta wrote:

Distrowatch is a site that many, including myself, consult ...

fsmithred wrote:

There must be something wrong with whatever generates that list.
There's no systemd package in devuan.

I think that settles the matter, right?

A.

boughtonp · 2023-10-12 12:33:39

There was a similar thread a little while back about Repology claiming Devuan contained systemd. Checking Repology just now, it is still making that claim.

Perhaps someone from the Devuan Team can reach out to Repology and DistroWatch to help them identify why they are saying that and resolve whatever bugs are responsible?

zapper · 2023-10-12 20:04:06

distrowatch has information, its incomplete, but its not useless.

That is the best thing I can say about distrowatch.

It does have some useful info. The statistics however are meaningless

Altoid · 2023-10-12 21:25:07

Hello:

boughtonp wrote:

Perhaps someone from the Devuan Team ...

Not on any Devuan team, not a dev/maintainer/packager either.
Nevertheless, I sent the people at Distrowatch an email.

--- snip ---

... Devuan does *not* use systemd as its init software in *any* of its versions/releases.
Devuan is Debian *without* systemd.

You may want to consider fixing that as it can lead to confusion.
Thanks in advance

--- snip ---

Here's their reply:
---

Devuan does not ship systemd as the _default_ init system. It still
includes the package in its repositories, which is what we show in our
package table.

---

Right ...

Then I wrote back with a link to the Devuan Package Information page with a query* for the systemd package and an email** address where they could write and ask for confirmation to what I was saying, I got this (interesting) reply:

---

The systemd packages are not only in the repositories, you can see them
on the Devuan package query page here:

https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/poli … *&x=submit

As you can see, our information is correct and systemd is in the main
Devuan repositories.

---
* https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/poli … d&x=submit
** freedom at devuan.org

I was about to write back with an explanation about the difference between the systemd package and all those files/packages named abc-systemd, systemd-xyz, abc-systemd-xyz (and so on) but decided that it was really not worth the effort.

But that's on me, I've never suffered fools lightly and too old to start now.

That said, I have not seen/found which page of the Repology site says anything about Devuan and systemd so I did not address the matter with them.

Best,

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2023-10-12 21:26:43)

golinux · 2023-10-12 22:02:18

Send them to this page . . . https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1925

fsmithred · 2023-10-12 22:34:06

# apt install systemd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
Package systemd is not available, but is referred to by another package.
This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
is only available from another source
However the following packages replace it:
  systemd-standalone-tmpfiles systemd-standalone-sysusers systemd-oomd systemd-boot-efi systemd-boot
  ifupdown

E: Package 'systemd' has no installation candidate

None of the available packages listed contains an init system.
Their descriptions are below. Note the part that says for use in non-systemd systems

Description: standalone tmpfiles binary for use in non-systemd systems
Description: standalone sysusers binary for use in non-systemd systems
Description: userspace out-of-memory (OOM) killer
Description: simple UEFI boot manager - EFI binaries
Description: simple UEFI boot manager - tools and services

Altoid · 2023-10-13 20:15:39

Hello:

golinux wrote:

Send them to this page . . .

Against my better judgement (if I've ever had such a thing) with today being both Friday 13th. and a local bank holiday, I decided to insist with Distrowatch.
I'm posting it here so you can ...

No idea, just for the chuckles.
Make what you will of it.

My email:

--- snip ---

... not *one* of those files contain an init system.

They are standalone files to either handle systemd unit files in
non-systemd distributions or be used at compile time by other
packages.

This enables Debian packages which have 'Build-Depends: systemd' to
be built on Devuan systems ensuring a non-systemd systemctl emulation
is installed.

They are *shims* (if you will) that allow most Debian packages (for
the time being) to run without issues in Devuan.

--- snip ---

---

Their reply:

---

--- snip ---

Nobody said they do. As you can clearly see on our Devuan page, we list
the three init Software packages Devuan supports (runit, OpenRC, and
SysV), we do not list systemd.

--- snip ---

You seem to be the only one confused by this. systemd packages are
available in Devuan, it offers systemd libraries and packages. We
therefore list systemd as being in the repositories, because it's there.
Nowhere do we claim Devuan uses systemd init.

---

As anyone can see, systemd (254.5) is listed as an available package in both Unstable and Testing in their Devuan page.

So much for that then.
No sense flogging a dead horse, is there?

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2023-10-13 20:17:12)

fsmithred · 2023-10-13 22:54:45

Nice work, Altoid. No, there's no point in continuing. At least their last statement is more accurate than the earlier one.

Altoid · 2023-10-13 23:31:30

Hello:

fsmithred wrote:

Nice work ...

Thanks.

Best,

A.

czeekaj · 2023-10-16 01:20:15

fsmithred wrote:

There must be something wrong with whatever generates that list. There's no systemd package in devuan.
root@ceres:/# apt policy systemd
systemd:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: (none)
  Version table:
Same as the rest of the banned packages.
https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt

Depending what iso you start from some of the live iso's boot with an orphan systemd/ cgroup/agent.
output of

netstat -an

you can set a kernel variable to ignore / orphaned process.

Last edited by czeekaj (2023-10-16 01:38:12)

Altoid · 2023-10-16 02:16:05

Hello:

czeekaj wrote:

Depending what iso you start from ...

I run Devuan Beowulf on a backported kernel ...

~$ uname -a
Linux devuan 5.10.0-0.deb10.16-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.127-2~bpo10+1 (2022-07-28) x86_64 GNU/Linux
~$

... and I get this:

~$ netstat -an | grep systemd
unix  2      [ ]         DGRAM                    15854    /run/systemd/cgroups-agent
~$

I recall having seen it once or twice before but did not pay attention to it.

czeekaj wrote:

you can set a kernel variable to ignore / orphaned process.

Q1: why do I have this? What starts it?
Q2: is it doing anyhting? It does not seem to be listening or connected
Q3: how do I get rid of it? (kernel variable?)

Thanks in advance.

Best.

A.

aluma · 2023-10-16 08:54:44

For example

/run/systemd/inhibit/1
# This is private data. Do not parse.
WHAT=sleep
MODE=delay
UID=0
PID=1217
WHO=NetworkManager
WHY=NetworkManager needs to turn off networks
FIFO=/run/systemd/inhibit/1.ref

This is probably how it should be.
This is Daedalus, which, according to distrowatch.com, does not have systemd.

Last edited by aluma (2023-10-16 08:57:03)

Altoid · 2023-10-16 10:53:42

Hello:

aluma wrote:

For example ...

The only reference to cgroups I have in /run/systemd is cgroups-agent, a Unix socket.

Location: /run/systemd
File type: socket
Total size of files: 0 bytes
Size on disk: 0 bytes

And then there's /lib/elogind/elogind-cgroups-agent which is a shared library.
I don't use Network Manager, my system uses Wicd.

From what I understand from the netstat-an printout, cgroups-agent is an active UNIX domain type socket with two attached processes, no 'Flags' data, used in DGRAM (connectionless) state.
ie: not waiting for a connect request, connected or listening

Proto    unix
RefCnt   2     <-- attached processes
Flags    [  ]  <-- no flags - not waiting for a connect request   
Type     DGRAM <-- connectionless
State          <-- empty - not connected to another socket
I-Node   15845
Path     /run/systemd/cgroups-agent

My guess is that it is needed for some systemd-less reason (elogind?), otherwise it would not be there, but that's all I can say.
It is all rather over my head.

That said,a couple of questions pop-up:

- what does/would it take for the cgroups-agent socket lose its connectionless mode/state?
- what can be done to avoid that from ever happening? ie: some way to block/blacklist it

Thanks in advance.

Best,

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2023-10-16 11:05:00)

aluma · 2023-10-16 12:23:07

In my Daedalus

root@AA:/run/systemd# netstat -an | grep systemd
root@AA:/run/systemd# netstat -an | grep DGRAM
unix  3      [ ]         DGRAM      CONNECTED     12101
unix  3      [ ]         DGRAM      CONNECTED     12100
unix  2      [ ]         DGRAM                    19561    /run/wpa_supplicant/wlan0
root@AA:/run/systemd#

Altoid · 2023-10-16 17:14:52

Hello:

Altoid wrote:

... it is needed for some systemd-less reason (elogind?) ...

Yes, not exactly but closely related to systemd.

https://github.com/elogind/elogind wrote:

Elogind is the systemd project's "logind", extracted out to be a standalone daemon. It integrates with PAM to know the set of users that are logged in to a system and whether they are logged in graphically, on the console, or remotely.

Xorg uses elogind to keep it from running as root.
Something which has always (rightly so) been a source of stern criticism.

See this post at the Artix forum for a quick explanation.

Dudemanguy at artixlinux.org wrote:

... elogind literally just sleeps 99% of the time.
It's a daemon.
Nothing harmful.

I think this thread can be marked as solved.

Best,

A.

zapper · 2023-10-17 20:46:36

"I think this thread can be marked as solved.

Best,

A."

Aww that's no fun, we should keep this thread perpetually going till it goes off the rails and turns into a nonsense thread about nothing.

I am only kidding obviously.

xD

Altoid · 2023-10-17 22:30:37

Hello:

zapper wrote:

... kidding obviously.

Of course. 8^D

A.

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#1 2023-10-10 08:33:31

Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#2 2023-10-10 10:19:34

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#3 2023-10-11 06:21:18

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#4 2023-10-11 10:04:44

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#5 2023-10-11 10:20:24

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#6 2023-10-11 11:23:37

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#7 2023-10-11 12:13:41

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#8 2023-10-12 06:52:35

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#9 2023-10-12 12:02:37

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#10 2023-10-12 12:33:39

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#11 2023-10-12 20:04:06

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#12 2023-10-12 21:25:07

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#13 2023-10-12 22:02:18

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#14 2023-10-12 22:34:06

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#15 2023-10-13 20:15:39

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#16 2023-10-13 22:54:45

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#17 2023-10-13 23:31:30

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#18 2023-10-16 01:20:15

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#19 2023-10-16 02:16:05

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#20 2023-10-16 08:54:44

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#21 2023-10-16 10:53:42

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#22 2023-10-16 12:23:07

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#23 2023-10-16 17:14:52

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#24 2023-10-17 20:46:36

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

#25 2023-10-17 22:30:37

Re: Ustable and Testing Systemd.

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