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#1 2022-02-05 14:14:15

manyroads
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From: 20 Jan 2021 ~ "Free at last"
Registered: 2020-08-18
Posts: 62  
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PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

For those who care about such things...

A formerUbuntu distro is about to offer both Debian and soon Devuan based releases.

PeppermintOS is expanding and building on Devuan (no-systemd), as well.
https://mastodon.technology/web/statuse … 5732164397

New PeppermintOS release write-up on Forbes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevang … a556aa328a


Pax vobiscum,
Mark Rabideau - ManyRoads
i3wm, dwm WM ~ Reg. Linux User #449130
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken

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#2 2022-02-05 14:23:59

hevidevi
Member
Registered: 2021-09-17
Posts: 230  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

Ive not ever tried peppermint but i will be sure to do so once they adopt Devuan.

Interesting they are going semi rolling, so does this mean a similar distro in operation to say mx linux?

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#3 2022-02-05 14:43:10

manyroads
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From: 20 Jan 2021 ~ "Free at last"
Registered: 2020-08-18
Posts: 62  
Website

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

No it seems to 'offer' (time will tell) a bit more fluid 'rolling approach'. From what little I have read, they have a number of repos stages (stable, test, unstable) with pinning involved. For example, yesterday I went a bit 'off the reservation' and installed 5.16rc as my kernel, all with just a minor tweak. 

It is a nice distro and will be much better once Devuan is the base (IMHO). From what I understand they are already in the process of removing some of the systemd dependant 'stuff' from their distro (like snaps, etc...). btw. they are looking (on matrix.org) for experienced Devuan users to help with their testing, etc.


Pax vobiscum,
Mark Rabideau - ManyRoads
i3wm, dwm WM ~ Reg. Linux User #449130
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken

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#4 2022-02-05 15:37:57

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,528  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

Interesting news, thanks for the information.

manyroads wrote:

they have a number of repos stages (stable, test, unstable) with pinning involved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gACCCmFKP80

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#5 2022-09-12 03:21:05

KsWoodsMan
Member
Registered: 2022-09-11
Posts: 3  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

The Nightly, Testing, Unstable and Skinny are Developer builds.
They in no way reflect which area of Devuan these are built from.

Nightly => Nightly builds by `cron` available to testers. The last place we test changes (from test builds) before being considered for a Release
Testing => A place for ideas that may or may not ever make it into the Nightly build(s).
Unstable => Neurotically broken area where things are put there because they are maladjusted. This is where attempts to get them working are done.
Skinny => An effort to get an even smaller ISO while still retaining the original functionality. It's trim and it's sleek. It might even boot to a CLI as we are working with it.
You have to break some eggs to make an omelette.
These areas are where various eggs get broken.

There is nothing special about any of them.
In the boot menus, there is a reference to Developers Desktop pointing to /dev/sda126 .
This is so I can leave the USB stick in my Dev Desktop and boot to a partition on my HDD instead of into the live session.
It saves me a lot of time, when doing trials on real hardware.

The apt-pinning:
Standard pinning for installed components is 100.
IIRC , the backports area has the same pinning.
The testing branch, we have pinned with a priority of 50 .
And the unstable branch, we have it pinned with a priority of 10.

This keeps new users from shooting themselves in the foot, as easily, when adding testing and unstable repos to /etc/apt/sources.list .
They can add them to their repo list or the repo list directory but nothing gets installed from there , by default, until the pinning file is removed or edited.
We get a lot of users , new to Linux. This one small thing (apt pinning) saves a considerable amount of "hand holding".

To the best of my knowledge we have never intended to build from the testing or unstable branch.
In my opinion, we'll leave that realm for the developers of other distros to pursue.
We want it to work and not be a "toy" requiring constant fiddling. If their approach is working for them , Fantastic.
I want a fast car too , but I'm not adjusting the lash on solid camshaft lifters every weekend to get it.
And I'd rather put my small amount of time available, towards something besides tinkering (with something that wasn't broken) and support.

Anyone that wants to change up to testing or unstable is welcomed to do so.
If there ever were a warranty of any kind (and there isn't) this would most certainly break that warranty.

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#6 2022-09-12 16:26:01

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,528  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

KsWoodsMan wrote:

The Nightly, Testing, Unstable and Skinny are Developer builds.
They in no way reflect which area of Devuan these are built from.

Interesting, thanks for the clarification.

But deb-multimedia.com? Really?

We have had so many threads over at forums.debian.net featuring systems broken by that repository that  it has accrued somewhat of a reputation. Infamous is the word, I think.

Have your users not reported any problems from that repository?

EDIT: and what's the deal with Peppermint anyway? What's the USP? Who are the target audience?

It looks like De{bi,vu}an with a facelift to me. Is that unfair?

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-09-12 16:52:33)

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#7 2022-09-12 23:21:44

KsWoodsMan
Member
Registered: 2022-09-11
Posts: 3  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

KsWoodsMan wrote:

The Nightly, Testing, Unstable and Skinny are Developer builds.
They in no way reflect which area of Devuan these are built from.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Interesting, thanks for the clarification.

You are welcome/

But deb-multimedia.com? Really?
.....
Have your users not reported any problems from that repository?

Zero, none.
And this thread isn't about deb-multimedia.com .

We have had so many threads over at forums.debian.net featuring systems broken by that repository that  it has accrued somewhat of a reputation. Infamous is the word, I think.

Remember RedHat "RPM Hell"  from RH 5.x and RH 6.x or the RH 7.x releases ?
Things happen, something or somethings got past the Dev or their team taking care of an area.
Kind of like ... on September 3, at 24:00 hours. I recognized it was going to happen.
I'm as much at fault as anyone else, for not sending a message so the team member covering that was prompted of the expiration.

So you aren't hi-jacking this thread and neither am I, That is a discussion best suited for a new post.

EDIT: and what's the deal with Peppermint anyway? What's the USP? Who are the target audience?

Again , Let's not hi-jack this thread to cover information that's readily and easily available by doing a "web look-up".
I would say "Google is your 'friend' for this" , though they really aren't. Use DuckDuckGo instead.

It looks like De{bi,vu}an with a facelift to me. Is that unfair?

It's an opinion. The same can be said for a lot of distros, built on any base.
If, after fully exploring what's there and you don't see any value-add by
PeppermintOS still offering 32 bit PAE support , unlike the previous base,
Or the lighter footprint than the previous release.
Or the CI/CD pipeline and custom applications.
Or that we are community based, with a focus on asking for input from community members.
Or even the direction we are going ...
Then PeppermintOS isn't for you. As it wasn't fully intended to entice veterans from the Linux Community.

With that said, I see no reason to start or conclude an "Internet Debate" in someone else's thread.

@Manyroads, Thank You for the opportunity to dispel any circulating rumors of a testing or unstable branch of Peppermint.

KsWoodsMan

Last edited by KsWoodsMan (2022-09-12 23:52:13)

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#8 2022-09-13 15:40:32

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,528  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

KsWoodsMan wrote:

Have your users not reported any problems from that repository?

Zero, none.

That's good but absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.

It's funny but GlennW has just posted this in another thread:

GlennW wrote:

you may need to remove any packages from "deb-multimedia" repository

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=37542#p37542

Which might be problematic:

https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=615697

And I would also quote Steve Pusser (the head packager over at MX Linux) on this:

stevepusser wrote:

It might be safe to use for some packages that aren't in Debian, such as Avidemux. But you have to be quite careful that anything you install from there does not want to upgrade other libraries that are in Debian--there be dragons there. That's where the cautious will do simulated installs first, and look at what will happen closely.

https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php … 43#p709943

KsWoodsMan wrote:

And this thread isn't about deb-multimedia.com .

Well it is about PeppermintOS and PeppermintOS has the deb-multimedia repositories added (with no pinning) in their default release. So I think we are very much on topic here.

KsWoodsMan wrote:

Remember RedHat "RPM Hell"  from RH 5.x and RH 6.x or the RH 7.x releases ?

Gracious me, no. I only started using GNU/Linux about 8 years ago. I'm a n00b :-)

KsWoodsMan wrote:

Things happen, something or somethings got past the Dev or their team taking care of an area.
Kind of like ... on September 3, at 24:00 hours. I recognized it was going to happen.
I'm as much at fault as anyone else, for not sending a message so the team member covering that was prompted of the expiration.

If you want to flex on these boards it might be best not to mention you used to work for Red Hat. Their name is mud here. I like them though :-)

KsWoodsMan wrote:

you aren't hi-jacking this thread and neither am I

Yes, I agree, we are on topic here.

KsWoodsMan wrote:

That is a discussion best suited for a new post

No, that's fine. I have no interest in a thread about your employment history. Perhaps others will though so feel free to go ahead. You certainly seem impressed with how you've done.

KsWoodsMan wrote:

EDIT: and what's the deal with Peppermint anyway? What's the USP? Who are the target audience?

Again , Let's not hi-jack this thread to cover information that's readily and easily available by doing a "web look-up".
I would say "Google is your 'friend' for this" , though they really aren't. Use DuckDuckGo instead.

I did look at your website and load up the live ISO image but I couldn't really find much beyond extra themes so I thought I would ask you while you were here.

I read https://peppermintos.com/about/ but all that nauseating wank about "DevOps" made my toes curl so much I had to take my slippers off. Is that all an in-joke or are you actually serious about that? I certainly couldn't find anything concrete beyond buzzwords and the usual "minimalistic desktop" bs.

KsWoodsMan wrote:

It looks like De{bi,vu}an with a facelift to me. Is that unfair?

It's an opinion. The same can be said for a lot of distros, built on any base.

Yeah, tell me about it... roll

KsWoodsMan wrote:

Or the CI/CD pipeline and custom applications.

CI/CD is indeed lovely. I was very pleased when I managed to persuade GitHub's Travis CI/CD to build new ISO images for me and upload them to the "Releases" page with full logging and no manual intervention. Saved me loads of time.

But it doesn't really benefit the users directly, does it? I didn't even bother telling my users.

And which applications, exactly? The default install doesn't have any Peppermint repositories or packages with all of the custom configuration applied via live build. And btw the live build documentation does recommend installing custom configuration as packages, which I found to be a more useful approach.

I found the package installer thingy ("Install a Web Browser" in the Welcome window) but that runs a Python GUI as root. And you have a polkit rule that allows all Python GUIs to run as root. That's messed up. Why not run a GUI under the normal user to collect the information and pass that to a script running as root? You could even feed stdout & stderr back to the (non-root) GUI.

Oh, and the Release Notes link in the Welcome window is broken:

20220913-07h14m34s-grim.png

HTH

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#9 2022-09-13 18:19:07

andyprough
Member
Registered: 2019-10-19
Posts: 248  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

Don't fall for the trap - HOAS is just lobbying you to re-base off of Fedora with Gnome 43 and systemd 252. Maybe throw in a Peppermint-themed Microsoft Edge browser for good measure. That's when you'll get your resounding HOAS 5-star review.


Primary Computer - Commodore 64: Processor - MOS 6510/8500, 1.023MHz; Memory - 64kb RAM, 20kB ROM - 8k BASIC V2, 8k Kernel, 4k Character ROM; Display output - 320x200, 16 colours; OS - BASIC V2.0; Weight: 1.8kg

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#10 2022-09-13 18:34:14

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 213  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

Peppermint is now a derivative of Devuan, like MIYO, Crowz, Star, etc.

Basically, they are offering their (present, & future users) the option of a systemd free version, that's all. smile

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#11 2022-09-13 19:55:47

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,604  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

Camtaf wrote:

Peppermint is now a derivative of Devuan, like MIYO, Crowz, Star, etc.

@KsWoodsMan . . . I would be happy to add it to our Derivatives list, if you like.  smile

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#12 2022-09-13 20:53:39

KsWoodsMan
Member
Registered: 2022-09-11
Posts: 3  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

(Y)ou have a polkit rule that allows all Python GUIs to run as root.

I dunna t'ink so.
Look a little deeper. Because No , we don't.

You screenshot is from in the live session, the live user peplive has sudo privileges, is in the sudoers group, and the account is set to not require a password. This is for noobs while trying it from the live session. It's also removed in the installed version.   

I really don't have the time for your antics.
Or to sit here while holding your hand and showing you around.
Nor full explanations that you can find on your own , in & on your own time.
Do some actual exploring, on your own.
When you find the PeppermintHub, click on the Update Manager. Then close the Hub and re-open it.

The 404 error, it is unexpected to see that. Do the update from the Hub.

andyprough wrote:

Don't fall for the trap - HOAS is just lobbying you to re-base off of Fedora with Gnome 43 and systemd 252. Maybe throw in a Peppermint-themed Microsoft Edge browser for good measure. That's when you'll get your resounding HOAS 5-star review.

No worries about any of those 3 things happening. At least not with the current Dev team.

As far as anyone's approval...
We're not seeking approval from everyone or the haters from after we moved away from the previous base.
And we ended the discussion of "Which browser is best , or recommended or endorsed" by not installing one.
And by giving a clear path  on where to install one , the browser choice is their choice.
If the current version is not for them, no one is forcing them to use it, they should absolutely use what suites them.

Camtaf wrote:

Peppermint is now a derivative of Devuan, like MIYO, Crowz, Star, etc.

Thanks ! There is a lot of love for Devuan and non-systemd within the Peppermint community and the current Dev team.

@golinux There is no rush from us to see Our listing on the derivatives page.
It will happen in it's own time. Because we have 2 bases , we haven't asked or mentioned it.
When it does happen , I hope we, at Peppermint, remember our good manners by giving an appreciative Thank You !.

Thanks !
KsWoodsMan

Last edited by KsWoodsMan (2022-09-14 01:15:52)

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#13 2022-09-16 10:56:13

nixer
Member
From: North Carolina, USA
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 139  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

The default install doesn't have any Peppermint repositories or packages with all of the custom configuration applied via live build.

Yea, I was surprised to see this also.  If a Pep based theme were to break it could possibly be fixed with a reinstall of the package.

HOAS is just lobbying you to re-base off of Fedora with Gnome 43 and systemd 252. Maybe throw in a Peppermint-themed Microsoft Edge browser for good measure.

Now that was just humorous.  I got a good laugh from that.  No disrespect intended to HOAS, none at all.

I have the Peppermint-dev installed and I admit ... when I look at my grub boot screen and it displays multiple linux OSs, lately my Pep-dev install gets the click to boot, as in boot into.  It has a good "feel" to it.  That's about as technical as I can get... (-:

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#14 2022-09-17 00:13:50

andyprough
Member
Registered: 2019-10-19
Posts: 248  

Re: PeppermintOS now Debian base & soon Devuan based

nixer wrote:

HOAS is just lobbying you to re-base off of Fedora with Gnome 43 and systemd 252. Maybe throw in a Peppermint-themed Microsoft Edge browser for good measure.

Now that was just humorous.  I got a good laugh from that.  No disrespect intended to HOAS, none at all.

It's funny because it's true. A slight degree of playful disrespect is possibly intended.


Primary Computer - Commodore 64: Processor - MOS 6510/8500, 1.023MHz; Memory - 64kb RAM, 20kB ROM - 8k BASIC V2, 8k Kernel, 4k Character ROM; Display output - 320x200, 16 colours; OS - BASIC V2.0; Weight: 1.8kg

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