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#26 2020-09-20 15:59:20

yeti
Member
From: AWAY. Need a break. Really!
Registered: 2017-02-23
Posts: 192  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

golinux wrote:
yeti wrote:

And while we're at it: Where is the delete-my-account function hidden?

It is not possible to delete an account if you have posted.

I didn't mention deleting all messages.
Disabling the login combined with a marker below the username that this user no longer is active and/or turning the username unclickable could be enough.

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#27 2020-09-20 16:04:38

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,061  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

Vernon wrote:
Reasons to allow unlimited time for editing.
  • Posted issues take an indeterminate time to solve. By setting an edit time limit, you don't allow posters to change a topic subject to [solved]

  • I am a very poor typist and make many typos and grammatical errors which I may not notice until days later when reviewing my posts. And yes, I do like to go back and review my posts and admire them smile

  • I may discover additional  issues that I should have discussed originally in a HOWTO days later or weeks later. Edit timeouts could prevent me for updating the HOWTO

Excellent points.  +1

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#28 2020-09-20 16:07:11

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,061  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

yeti wrote:

Disabling the login combined with a marker below the username that this user no longer is active and/or turning the username unclickable could be enough.

Yes.  Scrambling info in an account is a solution that is quite effective.

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#29 2020-09-21 04:12:45

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 101  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

Vernon wrote:

Edit: Updated with archive.org suggestion

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

Thanks. Yes. It looks like a code bug; that the edit code picks up the topic's timestamp rather than the post's timestamp.
This might have been fixed now by my spurios replacing of a 't' with a 'p'; otherwise it'll require thought.

Thanks. I have now been able to edit my post.

Reasons to allow unlimited time for editing.
  • Posted issues take an indeterminate time to solve. By setting an edit time limit, you don't allow posters to change a topic subject to [solved]

  • I am a very poor typist and make many typos and grammatical errors which I may not notice until days later when reviewing my posts. And yes, I do like to go back and review my posts and admire them smile

  • I may discover additional  issues that I should have discussed originally in a HOWTO days later or weeks later. Edit timeouts could prevent me from updating the HOWTO

Alternatives to Time Limits
  • Quote posts you are replying to. Even if the original poster modifies or deletes a post, the post is still in the quoted reply

  • Use rdiff-backup to take daily snapshots of your forum.  rdiff-backup  is like a version control system for files and only stores deltas for text files like CVS. If a post gets deleted, it can be restored with  rdiff-backup. Note that  rdiff-backup  works on many different file systems and platforms including MAC OSX

  • Submit a discussion thread URL to archive.org.

These ideas I like, time limits only under certain conditions, and have backups somewhere if need be. I like!

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#30 2020-09-21 06:10:51

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 465  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

At present we administer this forum as a "public discussion forum".

This means in particular that the posts are contributions to the thread(s) of discussion in as much is possible similar to verbal group discussion. In particular we cannot un-say what is said. Rather, if I mis-speak in a way I see as significant, I'll have to make further contributions to correct, revise or retract that mis-speaking. In short, the posts I make are not "mine to edit"; after I've make a contribution it thereafter remains as the contribution I made at the time.

As a matter of contrast, this site is (was) not intended to be a "personal blogs site" or "dokumentation site" (aka wiki), although a number of threads are laid up more like such than as public discussions. And at least in my mind, "editing history" is not a feature of a storage of public dicussions.

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#31 2020-09-21 09:46:59

Ron
Member
Registered: 2018-04-22
Posts: 255  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

One reason against unlimited time for editing is that such editing, after following posts have been made, could possibly throw off the "flow" of the thread. What I mean is that such editing can make following posts appear nonsensical, etc. There's another forum I frequent where, once a following post is posted, one cannot go back and edit his/her post (the previous one). I think that's a good standard to follow.

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#32 2020-09-21 16:10:08

Vernon
Member
Registered: 2020-07-19
Posts: 89  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

At present we administer this forum as a "public discussion forum".

As a matter of contrast, this site is (was) not intended to be a "personal blogs site" or "dokumentation site" (aka wiki), although a number of threads are laid up more like such than as public discussions.

Whatever the initial intent, that's exactly what this site is now - a documentation site aka wiki.
Devuan Wiki

Things don't always turn out the way we intend smile

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

And at least in my mind, "editing history" is not a feature of a storage of public dicussions.

No one is asking for editing history, just the ability to edit their own posts indefinitely. Rather than limiting everyone's ability to edit their own posts because of the perceived transgression of one user deleting their posts, I have suggested alternatives.

Vernon wrote:
Alternatives to Time Limits
  • Quote posts you are replying to. Even if the original poster modifies or deletes a post, the post is still in the quoted reply

  • Use rdiff-backup to take daily snapshots of your forum.  rdiff-backup  is like a version control system for files and only stores deltas for text files like CVS. If a post gets deleted, it can be restored with  rdiff-backup. Note that  rdiff-backup  works on many different file systems and platforms including MAC OSX

  • Submit a discussion thread URL to archive.org.

Do you have any objections or comments to these suggestions?

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#33 2020-09-21 18:24:22

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,061  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

This forum, like debian's,  is a hybrid of problem solving, wiki-like documentation and social interactions.  It's been working quite well and I see no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.   As I said before, we need to find the sweet spot between users having the option to improve/correct posts at the point where technical errors were made (not 10 posts later) while not having the ability to delete an entire thread which I assume deleting the first post would do.  Also . . .  as mentioned by Vernon, posters must have the ability to mark their issue as [SOLVED].

Here is a thread on the debian forum about their policy.

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#34 2020-09-21 19:53:15

Vernon
Member
Registered: 2020-07-19
Posts: 89  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

golinux wrote:

while not having the ability to delete an entire thread which I assume deleting the first post would do.

I apologize for not understanding the distinction between Delete and Edit. In fact, I didn't realize until just now that there was a Delete button. I thought the person clicked on the Edit button and deleted the post contents leaving an empty post - not clicking the Delete button.

I would remove the Delete button entirely.
Delete Button

This would address your concern about someone deleting a post and deleting an entire thread. So can we just eliminate the Delete button and go back to the previous indefinite editing timeout policy?

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#35 2020-09-21 20:35:28

bgstack15
Member
Registered: 2018-02-04
Posts: 170  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

It's not clear to me from this discussion if this forum software has the ability to show the revisions of a post over time. I realize such a feature is definitely advanced and probably not available, but that would solve the problem. And if somebody needs to delete content from a post on a more permanent basis, that user could reach out to a moderator. Is that a possibility in FluxBB?


This space intentionally left blank.

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#36 2020-09-21 20:42:12

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,061  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

There are backups but no revision software.  A forum is by nature ephemeral so there's not really a need for it IMO.  It is always possible to dig in the Internet Archive.

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#37 2020-09-21 23:16:53

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 465  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

@Vernon, firstly I don't think a discussion site becomes a wiki site merely by claiming that it is one.

In parenthesis, there is work in progress towards a Devuan wiki site, and that should hopefully cater for those kinds of contributions. At that time we might even find or proclaim that a discussion site is an uninteresting extra and close it down, or we might not, and continue.

Secondly, a suggestion that implies more administrator work is only taken seriously (by me) if the suggester also at the same time volunteer for taking on that work. (Actually, it is due time for this site in full to move into new hands [out of my hands]... but that is a separate discussion)

Another secondly, your statement

No one is asking for editing history, just the ability to edit their own posts indefinitely.

doesn't fare well in a semantic analysis. Specifically, "edit their own posts indefinitely" is an example of "editing history".

I am guessing that you rather want to suggest that noone will, if editing is allowed, change their posts in a "bad way" with respect to the interest of the community. Or perhaps more likely, that you want to suggest the benefit of allowing such editing well outweighs the risk of communal loss by (a few) idiots "misbehaving".

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#38 2020-09-21 23:55:08

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 504  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

Hello:

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

... discussion site becomes a wiki site merely by claiming that it is one.

+1

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

... proclaim that a discussion site is an uninteresting extra and close it down ...

Please don't.

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

... the benefit of allowing such editing well outweighs the risk of communal loss ...

It does not.

However small the risk of communal loss may seem, it is far too much if it is communal loss of any sort.

Just my $0.02

A.

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#39 2020-09-22 12:58:50

Vernon
Member
Registered: 2020-07-19
Posts: 89  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

@Vernon, firstly I don't think a discussion site becomes a wiki site merely by claiming that it is one.

In parenthesis, there is work in progress towards a Devuan wiki site, and that should hopefully cater for those kinds of contributions. At that time we might even find or proclaim that a discussion site is an uninteresting extra and close it down, or we might not, and continue.

Of course closing down this discussion site is your prerogative which would prove your critics correct that Devuan is more about tantrums than freedom.

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

Secondly, a suggestion that implies more administrator work is only taken seriously (by me) if the suggester also at the same time volunteer for taking on that work.

Yet you had no problems performing the additional administrative work of changing editing times instead of leaving well enough alone.

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

(Actually, it is due time for this site in full to move into new hands [out of my hands]... but that is a separate discussion)

Agreed.

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

Another secondly, your statement

No one is asking for editing history, just the ability to edit their own posts indefinitely.

doesn't fare well in a semantic analysis. Specifically, "edit their own posts indefinitely" is an example of "editing history".

This is what is typically meant by an editing history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti โ€ฆ on=history

I guess when you stated "editing history" you meant changing history. I apologize for my confusion.

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

I am guessing that you rather want to suggest that noone will, if editing is allowed, change their posts in a "bad way" with respect to the interest of the community.

Of course not. There will always be people that will use things in way that someone thinks is bad. Should Devuan be shut down as well because it could be used by someone in a bad way - commit a crime for example?

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

Or perhaps more likely, that you want to suggest the benefit of allowing such editing well outweighs the risk of communal loss by (a few) idiots "misbehaving".

Exactly - except I don't see the communal loss of "idiots" editing or deleting their own posts. If anything, I would think we should be happy when the "idiots" clean up their own garbage just as I am happy when a litterer picks up their trash.

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#40 2020-09-22 13:47:57

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 504  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

Hello:

Vernon wrote:

... which would prove your critics correct that Devuan is more about tantrums ...
... changing editing times instead of leaving well enough alone.

I find the tone in your posts to be both unwarranted and out of place, a view that I expect many here at Dev1 share.

I would personally appreciate your showing more respect to those who volunteer their work to keep this site working.

Thank you.

A.

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#41 2020-09-22 17:52:09

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,061  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

This forum is less than a side-dish on Ralph's menu.  There would be no Devuan without Ralph.  Period. This issue will be discussed internally in a few days.  In the meantime, please be patient and constructive in your comments.  And remember to breathe . . .

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#42 2020-09-22 20:17:08

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,064  
Website

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

Vernon wrote:

I don't see the communal loss of "idiots" editing or deleting their own posts. If anything, I would think we should be happy when the "idiots" clean up their own garbage just as I am happy when a litterer picks up their trash.

Yes but what about if somebody who has made valuable contributions is sufficiently annoyed that they start to vandalise their posts? It does happen. Especially with me around to piss people off big_smile


Black Lives Matter

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#43 2020-09-22 20:52:44

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,061  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

We're a pretty mellow and collaborative bunch so I don't see that happening.  In fact HoaS, you seem to have mellowed considerably since you've been hanging around here.  The reaction to the current option sends a message that should be heeded.  My suggestion would be to experiment with the edit timeout window starting at X number of months/days (to be collectively decided and undisclosed).  Then wait and see if anyone notices.

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#44 2020-09-22 21:26:53

Vernon
Member
Registered: 2020-07-19
Posts: 89  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Vernon wrote:

I don't see the communal loss of "idiots" editing or deleting their own posts. If anything, I would think we should be happy when the "idiots" clean up their own garbage just as I am happy when a litterer picks up their trash.

Yes but what about if somebody who has made valuable contributions is sufficiently annoyed that they start to vandalise their posts? It does happen.

If someone in the community feels a thread is valuable, they should submit it to archive.org. This can be done by anyone - not just the post owner and doesn't induce any added forum administrative burden. The stealth change of editing timeouts and the comment about possibly removing this forum has prompted me to submit a variety of Devuan forum threads which I may find useful in the future to archive.org - including this one

https://web.archive.org/web/20200920170 โ€ฆ hp?id=3705

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

[ Especially with me around to piss people off big_smile

People should be centered enough to not get pissed off at what somebody says. I am amazed at your energy to help people on this forum even though you apparently don't use Devuan as your daily driver. Although I don't always agree with you, I think you are an great asset to this community.

I feel that having a free (as in freedom) and vibrant forum is crucial to the success of a project. For instance, one of the reasons I choose RaspberryPi single board computers instead of more capable boards are due to the RaspberryPi's vibrant community and forums.

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#45 2020-09-22 21:51:19

Vernon
Member
Registered: 2020-07-19
Posts: 89  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

golinux wrote:

The reaction to the current option sends a message that should be heeded.  My suggestion would be to experiment with the edit timeout window starting at X number of months/days (to be collectively decided and undisclosed).

Why undisclosed?

golinux wrote:

Then wait and see if anyone notices.

So, sort of like when you complain to a Debian package manager about only supporting systemd and they reply lets see if anyone notices?

One excellent point that you made is to figure out what happens when an initial post is Deleted rather than just Edited. Does this only Delete the initial post or all the other follow-up posts as well?

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#46 2020-09-22 22:39:49

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,061  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

Vernon wrote:
golinux wrote:

The reaction to the current option sends a message that should be heeded.  My suggestion would be to experiment with the edit timeout window starting at X number of months/days (to be collectively decided and undisclosed).

Why undisclosed?

Because that's the only way to insure that the outcome will be completely random and not engineered by someone with an axe to grind.

Vernon wrote:
golinux wrote:

Then wait and see if anyone notices.

So, sort of like when you complain to a Debian package manager about only supporting systemd and they reply lets see if anyone notices?

Nothing like that if you read the above.  That's just how I would do it to make the community response completely unbiased.  Not saying it will be done that way.

Vernon wrote:

One excellent point that you made is to figure out what happens when an initial post is Deleted rather than just Edited. Does this only Delete the initial post or all the other follow-up posts as well?

Deletion of an initial post should only be allowed if there are no responses, IMO.  That's the way the Debian forum does it.  I posted a link about that a few posts up.

Suggestion . . . maybe close your eyes and let the mind and breath settle for a few minutes . . . the world appears quite different when the churning stops . . . smile

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#47 2020-09-23 02:33:59

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 465  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

I should apologise for suggesting that anyone here would be "an idiot". It's an unnecessarily offensive labelling which I don't think should be applied to any contributor. I did use it, but merely as a "literary short cut" to emphasize my view about certain ways of acting on this forum; namely that of deleting and/or destroying ones previous posts. However, it was not meant to be a value judgement against anyone's contribution(s), in the past or in the the future.

Now, due to my praiseworthy effort, that way of acting is no longer possible. Well rather, it is now a restricted ability available only to those who sports the role of Administrator, as well as of course, to those who have access to the server.

I see that @Vernon, and probably others, think of this differently from me. Since we (including me) want this to be a forum that in principle is owned by its contributors, I will want to pursue this discussion a bit to understand what the difference is. Especially if I am supposed to dive into the code again to make a variation or retraction of my improvements.

My start point was that I see all threads and posts as valuable, and therefore it should not be available for posters to change or delete their posts once they've made them, except for a grace period for the purpose spelling and grammar corrections. Perhaps it should even be stronger than now; that deletion should only be available until there is a subsequent post.

Maybe this is influenced by mailing lists which have that nature.

I don't think the idea of saving threads elsewhere ("if someone in the community feels a thread is valuable") is a workable approach, because I think this site is supposed to be that archive of Devuan-related discussions. That is indeed the reason why changing posts to me is outside of agreeable activity.

What else is this forum if not an archive of Devuan-related discussions?

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#48 2020-09-23 03:03:57

Vernon
Member
Registered: 2020-07-19
Posts: 89  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

golinux wrote:
Vernon wrote:
golinux wrote:

The reaction to the current option sends a message that should be heeded.  My suggestion would be to experiment with the edit timeout window starting at X number of months/days (to be collectively decided and undisclosed).

Why undisclosed?

Because that's the only way to insure that the outcome will be completely random and not engineered by someone with an axe to grind.

Everyone has an axe to grind. My axe is called Freedom and Openness. Based on your advocacy of post editing time limits and keeping those limits secret, your axe is apparently called something quite different - authoritarianism and secrecy perhaps?

golinux wrote:
Vernon wrote:
golinux wrote:

Then wait and see if anyone notices.

So, sort of like when you complain to a Debian package manager about only supporting systemd and they reply lets see if anyone notices?

Nothing like that if you read the above.  That's just how I would do it to make the community response completely unbiased.  Not saying it will be done that way.


Don't see how this is fundamentally different from Debian making some packages systemd only and not telling users which ones they are to see who would notice. Freedom and Openness are fundamental principles to be adhered to, not experimented with.

golinux wrote:
Vernon wrote:

One excellent point that you made is to figure out what happens when an initial post is Deleted rather than just Edited. Does this only Delete the initial post or all the other follow-up posts as well?

Deletion of an initial post should only be allowed if there are no responses, IMO.  That's the way the Debian forum does it.  I posted a link about that a few posts up...

  1. Return things to the way they were with no time limits on editing and deletion of posts and inform users that they can archive any Devuan Forum threads they deem important at https://web.archive.org/save

    • Adheres to Freedom and Openness Principles

      • Allows the community to determine which threads are important to archive

      • Allows posters the freedom to edit and delete their posts

    • No additional Forum system administration requirements

Your proposal impinges on Freedom and Openness and results in additional Forum System Administration.

Last edited by Vernon (2020-09-23 03:10:16)

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#49 2020-09-23 03:28:01

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,061  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

Vernon wrote:
golinux wrote:
Vernon wrote:

Why undisclosed?

Because that's the only way to insure that the outcome will be completely random and not engineered by someone with an axe to grind.

Everyone has an axe to grind. My axe is called Freedom and Openness. Based on your advocacy of post editing time limits and keeping those limits secret, your axe is apparently called something quite different.

You are so busy blustering and demanding, you really didn't think that through, did you. A time limit would only be a "secret" until it was triggered, then it wouldn't be a secret anymore would it. LOL! And if it's never triggered, what does it matter?  You just want to latch on to anything to argue and demand.  That energy coming from someone who has been here only about 2 months is quite out of sync with this peaceful, collaborative project and disrespectful of the hours of love we have poured into Devuan since the fork.

(golinux wishes this forum had an ignore feature)

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#50 2020-09-23 05:29:11

Vernon
Member
Registered: 2020-07-19
Posts: 89  

Re: Unable to edit any of my own posts

golinux wrote:

You are so busy blustering and demanding, you really didn't think that through, did you. A time limit would only be a "secret" until it was triggered, then it wouldn't be a secret anymore would it. LOL! And if it's never triggered, what does it matter?  You just want to latch on to anything to argue and demand.  That energy coming from someone who has been here only about 2 months is quite out of sync with this peaceful, collaborative project and disrespectful of the hours of love we have poured into Devuan since the fork.

(golinux wishes this forum had an ignore feature)

Obviously a secret is only a secret until it is revealed. The problem is that you propose an editing time limit as a secret in the first place. I and other users would have this sword of Damocles hanging above us wondering when this editing time limit would kick in. I have taken more than a day to complete posts. It's important for at least me, to know how much editing time I have.

Again, your penchant towards secrecy and authoritarianism seem contrary to the stated goals of Devuan being about freedom.

Last edited by Vernon (2020-09-23 05:36:07)

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