Debian has fallen. What now?

ToxicExMachina · 2020-01-21 07:37:21

mckaygerhard wrote:

a good idea are join effors with trinity desktop..

It's not a high priority task. However, if you will build and maintain TDE packages in Devuan repo - why not?

mckaygerhard · 2020-01-21 13:13:56

It's not a high priority task. However, if you will build and maintain TDE packages in Devuan repo - why not?

your response was very much better rather than anybody from devuan staff.. are a big task but maybe a well made script to automatically builds..

currently trinity desktop have packages..but due kde namespace scheme some applications may conflict with counterparts in kde4, so their builds are made using "/opt/ as prefix.. that are a pain in the ass to make integrated into any distribution..

due that so then a possible solution its to introduce conflilcts agains kde4 applications.. but this are not so easy and also introduces limits to users..

then, my proposal are a "official derivative work" using the EXE gnu linux as initial work, until the kde namespace scheme was complety migrated to the TDE naming scheme , for that i opened this issue https://sourceforge.net/p/exegnulinux/tickets/6/

Last edited by mckaygerhard (2020-01-21 13:31:50)

golinux · 2020-01-21 16:24:43

This is being discussed here with the dev who has been doing exegnulinux since the fork. It is unlikely that TDE would become the default but could certainly be made available for individual installation. Hopefully, dzz would be able to assist with this.

steelpillow · 2020-02-04 17:23:00

Debian is committed to working with derivatives that make different choices about init systems. As with all our interactions with downstreams, the relevant maintainers will work with the downstreams to figure out which changes it makes sense to fold into Debian and which changes remain purely in the derivative.

That encourages me. If they put their proverbials where their mouth is, then we should see more init options moving back upstream and apps taking them back board. A level playing field is probably too much to ask for just yet, but I do see this as a small reversal of the rush towards the cliff.

bimon · 2020-05-06 20:28:48

Why not trying to join efforts with other systemD free relatively stable (not rolling) distros like Salix(Slackware) and Alpine?

Actually I would like to have Salix and Alpine being packaged with apt as an alternative to their own package managers especially taking into account Salix and Alpine are missing a tool (like Devuan debsums) to verify checksums of earlier installed files.

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-09 10:10:57)

bimon · 2020-05-06 20:31:23

Distros look for me like following list now:

Stable main OS: Devuan, OpenBSD
Alternative main OS: Alpine, ~~Salix~~
Guest OS: ^above, Parabola, Gentoo, GUIX
Legacy usable OS: Debian v4-v7, RH/Centos v4-v6
Unusable shit OS: any distro nailed to systemD

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-08 06:48:56)

mckaygerhard · 2020-05-07 21:18:34

bimon wrote:

Why not trying to join efforts with other systemD free relatively stable (not rolling) distros like Salix (Slackware) and Alpine?

you are not the only that said the OBVIOUS but that devuan developers and other distros creators ignore it!

bimon wrote:

.. like to have Salix and Alpine being packaged with apt as an alternative to their own package managers especially taking into account Salix and Alpine are missing a tool (like Devuan debsums) to verify checksums of earlier installed files.

it's very clear that you do not use alpine linux.. to said that mess!

bimon wrote:

Stable main OS: Devuan, OpenBSD

does work perfectly for servers,... ok with that! Devuan are for sure the best option on stardar LAMP choices.. or VOIP cases... but for things like panels.. 3trh party solutions etc does not work! . that's the problem with systemd. invation! by example ispconfig and vesta software removed all the sysvinit support!

bimon wrote:

Alternative main OS: Alpine, Salix

pufffffsssshhhhh, alpine are king on docker deploys, salix.. whaat? but those are a mess at desktops choices.. specially for blind people or novice ! Take note, all the alpine desktop packages were moved to community repos today!

Guest OS: ^above, Parabola, Gentoo, GUIX

yes.. ok gues.. only guesss...

Legacy usable OS: Debian v4-v7, RH/Centos v4-v6

For all the people interested in those! i already have packages for Debian v4 to v7, currently Wheeze has support from exLTS on freexebian site. all the work are at https://build.opensuse.org/project/subp … me:venenux

Unusable shit OS: any distro nailed to systemD

So clear! ^_^u

bimon · 2020-05-08 06:21:57

mckaygerhard wrote:

bimon wrote:
.. like to have Salix and Alpine being packaged with apt as an alternative to their own package managers especially taking into account Salix and Alpine are missing a tool (like Devuan debsums) to verify checksums of earlier installed files.
it's very clear that you do not use alpine linux.. to said that mess!

Can you please argue your above statement? Alpine apk is fast, yes, but in most other terms I would prefer well established dpkg based tools like apt, wajig, etc.
Actually the only most significant disadvantage of apk for me is a lack of analogue of debsums.

But as for Slackware package manager - I do NOT like anything about it, the only good thing about Slackware - its stability and non rolling release cycles which could be useful only if some day in the future we lose Devuan and Alpine, most likely it will not happen, hopefully long life for Devuan and Alpine.

mckaygerhard wrote:

bimon wrote:
Alternative main OS: Alpine, Salix
pufffffsssshhhhh, alpine are king on docker deploys, salix.. whaat? but those are a mess at desktops choices.. specially for blind people or novice ! Take note, all the alpine desktop packages were moved to community repos today!

Salix is a Slackware with automatic resolution of package dependencies, I guess it shall be a good stable server distro.
You can evaluate Salix popularity looking at their forum at: https://forum.salixos.org/
For me Salix total forum activity looks comparable to Devuan forum.
Take into account that Salix is completely compatible with famous Slackware on which it is based (packages, settings, etc.) for which there are even much larger forum areas.
If I understood correctly the only thing Salix adds over Slackware is a list of dependencies for packages.
Do you know any public online forum with more messages about Alpine than Salix? And for Slackware a spread in popularity will be even more if counting only standalone installations (not containers).
Slackware v15 is still not ready for over 4 years since v14.2 release already though there are rumors it is on the way and will be released in about a year finally.
Most likely that is why there is less activity on Salix forums in the last year.

Actually I am interested only in server distributions since I am very happy with Trinity Desktop even on now relatively old Devuan ASCII.
Even Beowulf release of Devuan would be an overkill for my already excellent (for me) desktop.

If I need some new shiny program I can start it in a VM with rendering on my ASCII Trinity desktop, just: ssh -X guest "new_prog"

Just for a short testing period I would even suffer if a guest program would be in a systemD based distro.
Though provided with Gentoo and Arch guests it is not actually needed, almost always they can provide me anything I need with OpenRC init in a guest VM running on Devuan host.

These two rolling distros (Gentoo and Arch) have so fresh packages and I never care if they break some day in a guest VM on a rock solid Devuan host, if needed I can just zfs rollback a guest zvol to an earlier snapshot state.

Devuan ASCII is super stable for me, I have never seen original Debian so stable on my desktop. Sometimes earlier Debian desktop hanged at least about once per 1-2 weeks of continuous work in KDE. Though not sure what is the reason of improved stability now, stable Devuan free from systemD, Trinity instead of often updated KDE or something else. My desktop computer can work now with many GUI programs for months without any need to reboot or reset. On the other hand for servers even Debian was always very stable, Devuan of course too.

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-08 11:22:03)

bimon · 2020-05-08 12:52:35

Slackware derivatives:

Many opinions about Slackware:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200509091 … e-in-2018/

One of them, e.g.:

One of the nicest things about Slackware is that it doesn’t change much. After 20yrs working with computers I found that so many systems re-invent themselves every few years, and as time moves on it gets harder to drum up enthusiasm to learn yet another new system, that does pretty much what the previous system did in a “new and improved” way. Slackware protects all that mental energy you invest in getting to know your system (as much as possible – i still don’t like uefi ), so you can still do the same stuff with minimal relearning.

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-09 09:14:58)

mckaygerhard · 2020-05-08 13:00:10

too much propaganda about slack.. very slow for a distro with a package manager so complicated and also proof that slak doe snot work as a dekstop orientes distro.. too heavy

bimon wrote:

Actually I am interested only in server distributions since I am very happy with Trinity Desktop even on now relatively old Devuan ASCII.
Even Beowulf release of Devuan would be an overkill for my already excellent (for me) desktop.

This is proof that Devuan is not getting lighter with every release...

on the web page it's put as a general purpose but some important features don't work that they do in Debian... soon someone from the blind community will release an article about this

currently i used Devuan Jesie.. that have lack of good multi language support but works more lighter of course.. and have less systemd shit rather than ascii

HevyDevy · 2020-05-08 13:19:30

slackware is alright imo, i think only one person is maintaining it too ( Patrick Volkerding ).

You can always uninstall packages with slackware to get a minimal system. Installing packages is not that hard either if you bother to learn how to do it, just sayin.

There is daily builds from this uk server as well. http://slackware.uk/people/alien-curren … rrent-iso/

slackware is one of the original linux distro's, its good to see it still around.

Last edited by HevyDevy (2020-05-08 13:21:55)

bimon · 2020-05-08 13:24:26

mckaygerhard wrote:

too much propaganda about slack.. very slow for a distro with a package manager so complicated and also proof that slak doe snot work as a dekstop orientes distro.. too heavy

Actually I do NOT like Slackware and its package manager, already mentioned it.

I find Devuan as it is now even in ASCII a luxury, the most convenient and balanced distribution among all other known to me, I tried tens of them and almost all so called base distributions (not derivative).

Btw, this forum engine choosen by Devuan maintainers looks as one of the most comfortable I ever seen, both in terms of experience and color scheme.

Slackware is just a backup way in case if Devuan development is stalled some day in the future. Slackware just seems to be the nearest alternative to Devuan in terms of freedom from systemD, great stability good for production usage due to non rolling very slow release cycle and a good work of Patrick.
But I would prefer apt packaging system in Slackware if I ever use it.

I think a joined effort of Slackware and Devuan developers would make sense in the future.

mckaygerhard wrote:

currently i used Devuan Jesie.. that have lack of good multi language support but works more lighter of course.. and have less systemd shit rather than ascii

Devuan does not have any systemD in any of its release including Jessie.

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-16 09:42:15)

HevyDevy · 2020-05-08 13:29:56

there is also slapt for slackware which is similar to APT...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slapt-get

bimon · 2020-05-08 13:31:31

HevyDevy wrote:

there is also slapt for slackware which is similar to APT...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slapt-get

But there is some strange situation with package dependency lists which are present only in Salix derivative if I understood correctly that puzzle.

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-08 13:34:04)

HevyDevy · 2020-05-08 13:32:25

bimon wrote:

HevyDevy wrote:
there is also slapt for slackware which is similar to APT...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slapt-get
But there is some strange situation with package dependency lists which a present only in Salix derivative.

It is not as good as debian's apt that is for sure but it is workable.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2020-05-08 13:34:01

bimon wrote:

mckaygerhard wrote:
currently i used Devuan Jesie.. that have lack of good multi language support but works more lighter of course.. and have less systemd shit rather than ascii
Devuan does not have any systemD in any of its released including Jessie.

How about https://pkginfo.devuan.org/stage/jessie … eb8u7.html?

AFAIUI it's not actually used at any point but it is needed to satisfy the dependencies for other packages.

bimon · 2020-05-08 13:39:51

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

bimon wrote:
mckaygerhard wrote:
currently i used Devuan Jesie.. that have lack of good multi language support but works more lighter of course.. and have less systemd shit rather than ascii
Devuan does not have any systemD in any of its released including Jessie.
How about https://pkginfo.devuan.org/stage/jessie … eb8u7.html?
AFAIUI it's not actually used at any point but it is needed to satisfy the dependencies for other packages.

So it is just a compatibility stub, not a full blown systemD which screws the whole system up as systemD in Debian.

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-08 13:40:14)

mckaygerhard · 2020-05-08 14:22:31

bimon wrote:

So it is just a compatibility stub, not a full blown systemD which screws the whole system up as systemD in Debian.

yes but you know it!

bimon wrote:

I think a joined effort of Slackware and Devuan developers would make sense in the future.

i already talked about that before.. but well it's well knowed that "Veteran bla bla bla degrees and decorations" admins of linux are kind of people like me! seems bit arrogant

we can see trinity desktop making great efforts..

we can see Devuan team (and veteran bla bla .. etc) making great efforst

we can see the HARD WORK to debloabed the systemshit .. and today systemd are more and more invasive...

Devuan team will need more help.. i just see the lasted collaboration the php extra repo (using sury's extra php repo) with debloabed systemshit stuff.. https://pkgs.tdrnetworks.com/ THAT's a great collaboration BUT why devuan team not just added to main servers mirror? what happened if those packages will dissapears?

currently i try to reproduce that packages to the OBS service due i cannot mantain storage servers and OBS provice all (like ppa's already do)

if Devuan doe not provide a "mentors" like system (as of Debian mentors system) but more like the PPA (where users still can find older versions of packages)... we will always have to wait decades on each new release!

bimon · 2020-05-08 14:58:49

I would like very much to have a copy of DVD set ISOs of Devuan ASCII when it reaches its EOL, the same for Beowulf later.

I need a true NON rolling distribution so that I can reproduce at least a process of installation anytime I ever need later, 5 or 10 years later I shall have all the deb files available (both from Devuan and Debian parts of the currently dynamically combined repository).

We shall not depend on any online services in production environment, for now I just have a set of Debian ISOs and several ZFS replicas of Devuan apt cache.

Last edited by bimon (2020-05-08 15:00:34)

mckaygerhard · 2020-05-08 15:22:23

bimon wrote:

I would like very much to have a copy of DVD set ISOs of Devuan ASCII when it reaches its EOL, the same for Beowulf later.

Devuan also do not provide any archived thing! only Debian provides:
Archived packages: http://archive.debian.org/
Archived Iso images: https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/

We shall not depend on any online services in production environment, for now I just have a set of Debian ISOs and several ZFS replicas of Devuan apt cache.

i'm in the same way, you shoul joing to the venenux telegram group of use the venenux mail list.. i'll show you how to use those and i already have a package that configures any repo depends on the debian release version installed ... https://t.me/venenux or https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!for … uxsarisari

I need a true NON rolling distribution so that I can reproduce at least a process of installation anytime I ever need later, 5 or 10 years later I shall have all the deb files available (both from Devuan and Debian parts of the currently dynamically combined repository).

Last edited by mckaygerhard (2020-05-08 15:23:30)

jaromil · 2020-08-18 06:47:09

bimon wrote:

I would like very much to have a copy of DVD set ISOs of Devuan ASCII when it reaches its EOL, the same for Beowulf later.
I need a true NON rolling distribution so that I can reproduce at least a process of installation anytime I ever need later, 5 or 10 years later I shall have all the deb files available (both from Devuan and Debian parts of the currently dynamically combined repository).
We shall not depend on any online services in production environment, for now I just have a set of Debian ISOs and several ZFS replicas of Devuan apt cache.

This makes a lot of sense. It would be very good to have Devuan do this.

doa379 · 2020-09-21 17:04:52

It's not looking good. We need to ensure that systems remain open and egalitarian rather than those whose sole purpose is to gain critical mass. I believe the OSS community has incubated mistakes in the making. We've had around twenty years of a genuine shift towards and adoption of OSS. Too many applications and systems have attained critical mass and have thereby become rigid and inflexible to change. The situation seems untenable.

larsH · 2020-09-21 17:12:21

Hi

Please relax just a bit ,-)). The world is not going to an end just yet. If you have something to tell, then tell it. Stop accusing and behave friendly please. Devuan is doing what it is doing just fine. And people who uses and support it are friendly to each other.

Have a nice day
Lars H

doa379 · 2020-09-21 17:29:23

bimon wrote:

But as for Slackware package manager - I do NOT like anything about it, the only good thing about Slackware - its stability and non rolling release cycles which could be useful only if some day in the future we lose Devuan and Alpine, most likely it will not happen, hopefully long life for Devuan and Alpine.
Do you know any public online forum with more messages about Alpine than Salix? And for Slackware a spread in popularity will be even more if counting only standalone installations (not containers).
Slackware v15 is still not ready for over 4 years since v14.2 release already though there are rumors it is on the way and will be released in about a year finally.
Most likely that is why there is less activity on Salix forums in the last year.

At this rate even Duvan has more life in it than Slackware. There's no reason to wait over four years for a release much less even a refresh. Many vital and prominent system utilities have moved on. To the point where I had to backport essentials in order to bring functionality back to match a corresponding Debian system that was already over two years old. They've dug that distribution into a ground. There's just no reason to wait this long. The distribution is a relatively simple one at that as individual packages are delivered straight off the shelf without patching, modification or integration. The simplicity of the system is the only thing going for it if you care to be totally hands on about every aspect of it. This includes packaging. Frankly I do prefer dealing with transparent tarballs over debs or rpms.

larsH · 2020-09-21 17:41:09

Hi again

With the above reasons Devuan is not meant for you. So go and look somewhere else. Stop trolling, please.

Have a nice day
Lars H

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#26 2020-01-21 07:37:21

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#27 2020-01-21 13:13:56

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#28 2020-01-21 16:24:43

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#29 2020-02-04 17:23:00

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#30 2020-05-06 20:28:48

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#31 2020-05-06 20:31:23

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#32 2020-05-07 21:18:34

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#33 2020-05-08 06:21:57

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#34 2020-05-08 12:52:35

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#35 2020-05-08 13:00:10

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#36 2020-05-08 13:19:30

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#37 2020-05-08 13:24:26

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#38 2020-05-08 13:29:56

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#39 2020-05-08 13:31:31

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#40 2020-05-08 13:32:25

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#41 2020-05-08 13:34:01

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#42 2020-05-08 13:39:51

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#43 2020-05-08 14:22:31

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#44 2020-05-08 14:58:49

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#45 2020-05-08 15:22:23

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#46 2020-08-18 06:47:09

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#47 2020-09-21 17:04:52

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#48 2020-09-21 17:12:21

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#49 2020-09-21 17:29:23

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

#50 2020-09-21 17:41:09

Re: Debian has fallen. What now?

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