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#1 2019-06-06 23:19:37

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,756  

Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

Every Devuan user should read this.  It is quite informative and yes, jaromil, we now have a clear picture of where Dyne is coming from.  Thank you!

On 2019-06-06 02:33, Jaromil wrote:
[snip] . . .  Devuan is not an organisation, a company, a
corporation or an IT management dept; but a community driven
GNU+Linux distribution where we are all unpaid volunteers devolving
free time in exchange of quality (both on the technical level and the
human interaction).

From the lesson Katolaz thought us I learned that the good spirit of
volunteers is definitely more important than the distro, that noone
should be pushed or held accountable or stressed about problems about
Devuan: because our distro will simply not work well and be in need of
someone to find time or someone new to step in on his/her own will.

This is why Devuan comes without any warranty, nor explicit or
implied. If we'd have more resources as a community (in terms of
donations, but also time of people perhaps partly covered by
companies) we would certainly change that, but all things standing now
we all have other commitments and if "it works for me" then I have no
urge to fix, I'd rather make sure everyone is in good health and
enjoys doing what we are doing, even if the repos are down for two
months
.

This is now my attitude. If anyone needs more then please contact us
at devuan.pro and someone will provide you professional support and
99% availability at a fair price. Also please mind that I'm saying
this while investing a *lot* of resources (in money and time) of the
organisation I'm leading (Dyne.org) on Devuan GNU+Linux and on top of
that we also need to maintain priority and peace of mind among
co-workers of our organisation.

I now really hope people have a clear picture of the situation on my
side of the pond when they interact with us at Dyne.org about problems
in Devuan.

ciao

Archived here

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#2 2019-06-08 00:56:36

stanz
Member
From: Northern Earth ~~ Brrrr
Registered: 2018-01-14
Posts: 143  

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

cool better now?  tongue

Last edited by stanz (2019-07-15 21:24:19)


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#3 2019-06-08 10:37:23

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 335  
Website

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

stanz wrote:

Reading what little is on the mailing list, it seemed less likely I'd interact with dyne - concerning
anything Devuan.

I think you're being way too harsh, free speech is important in open software development and miscommunications in plain-text media are very common.


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#4 2019-06-09 05:26:28

stanz
Member
From: Northern Earth ~~ Brrrr
Registered: 2018-01-14
Posts: 143  

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
stanz wrote:

Bla bla bla...

I think you're being way too harsh, free speech is important in open software development and miscommunications in plain-text media are very common.

Yes, and sure... that's me exercising my free speech, while reading & hearing, another's chosen words - of free speech,
while typing our speech's. tongue
No miscommunication there! LoL


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#5 2019-06-09 14:46:19

Ron
Member
Registered: 2018-04-22
Posts: 209  

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

stanz wrote:

My next donation will not go thru dyne! We'll chat about that one day.  tongue

Is there another way?

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#6 2019-06-09 16:51:31

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,756  

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

Ron wrote:
stanz wrote:

My next donation will not go thru dyne! We'll chat about that one day.  tongue

Is there another way?

There is not afaik.

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#7 2019-06-17 10:17:39

F_Sauce
Member
From: Noreg
Registered: 2017-07-07
Posts: 31  

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

stanz wrote:

Wow, and "yes  jaromil, we now have a clear picture of where Dyne ( & you ) is coming from."
Reading what little is on the mailing list, it seemed less likely I'd interact with dyne - concerning
anything Devuan.

My next donation will not go thru dyne! We'll chat about that one day.  tongue

Strange with such a harsh reply to that post?

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#8 2019-12-01 11:15:40

jaromil
Member
Registered: 2016-11-28
Posts: 14  
Website

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

To give a bit of context: I've written this post in response to the April fool's accusations against Devuan volunteers.

These accusations have lead to the resignation of a core Devuan developer and severely damaged our project.

Therefore I felt as necessary to specify that users, and even donors, cannot expect any warranty: if you donate, you support the project.

Those in need of a warranty that Devuan fits their purposes should hire a professional for it and with Devuan.pro we'll try to facilitate that.

Also Dyne.org happens to be the organisation that invests most time and resources to facilitate Devuan's community, but neither me or my colleagues can be held liable for Devuan. We simply do our best and you can judge that from actions and results - and you can contribute too!

If you understand what I wrote above and the reasons for it: please help against trolls and hooligans, Devuan also needs this sort of help to survive.


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#9 2019-12-01 18:02:06

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 25  

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

imo devuan needs contributors more than it needs donations. im not saying its either/or, im sure that bandwidth isnt free (it never is.)

this is why i wish that there were more ways to become a contributor, and wish that devuan had more avenues for contribution and collaboration. if it were even barely less "ad hoc" in that regard-- just barely, you could invite more people to lend a hand and they would know what was needed, what was possible, and how to move forward. instead i think a lot of that relies on guesswork. it made plenty of sense a few years ago, but im sure it doesnt help now.

my feelings about dyne and devuan are completely separate-- ive never had any misgivings about dyne at all. as for devuan, i have always looked for a debian replacement, and thats what sets my expectations. they may not be realistic, but that is devuans claim to fame-- i wasnt the person who told myself to expect debian when i used devuan.

i have no problem with jaromils statement either-- its honest, and ill take honesty over hype. devuan may not provide debian exactly, but neither does debian anymore.

devuan comes closer to that, at least. but i suspect there are lots of people that expect devuan to be what debian was before they switched. thats why you find people who are surprised when devuan falls short, you know exactly where their expectations come from-- from promises made years earlier, from the ambitions of the project early on. im in favour of clarification-- the sooner the better.


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#10 2019-12-01 18:06:56

ChuangTzu
Member
Registered: 2018-06-13
Posts: 137  

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

jaromil wrote:

To give a bit of context: I've written this post in response to the April fool's accusations against Devuan volunteers.

These accusations have lead to the resignation of a core Devuan developer and severely damaged our project.

Therefore I felt as necessary to specify that users, and even donors, cannot expect any warranty: if you donate, you support the project.

Those in need of a warranty that Devuan fits their purposes should hire a professional for it and with Devuan.pro we'll try to facilitate that.

Also Dyne.org happens to be the organisation that invests most time and resources to facilitate Devuan's community, but neither me or my colleagues can be held liable for Devuan. We simply do our best and you can judge that from actions and results - and you can contribute too!

If you understand what I wrote above and the reasons for it: please help against trolls and hooligans, Devuan also needs this sort of help to survive.

jaromil, I have alot of respect for Dyne (have for many years) and appreciate what Devuan has done and is trying to keep doing, however, the above (in bold) statement is misleading or worse a red herring.  The action(s) surrounding the terrible April Fools joke is what damaged the integrity and reputation of Devuan, especially by core Devuan developer(s), not those who were correctly pointing out and bringing attention to what occurred.  Is the firefighter to be blamed for pointing out and trying to correct/put out a fire, or the one who lit the match?

Also, if Devuan.pro is going to offer "professional" support then its home page needs to remove the redundant statements/paragraphs, that does not give a good first impression.  wink

Last edited by ChuangTzu (2019-12-01 18:10:57)

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#11 2019-12-01 18:13:40

Ron
Member
Registered: 2018-04-22
Posts: 209  

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

As someone who is only a user of the OS, but would like to see it become one of the "big" distros, I'd say it wasn't the accusations that damaged the project, but the dumb April Fool's joke that did (in full agreement with ChuangTzu). I just hope 4 months from now nothing like this happens again.

Last edited by Ron (2019-12-01 18:15:34)

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#12 2019-12-01 18:18:27

freemedia2018
Member
Registered: 2019-10-21
Posts: 25  

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

ChuangTzu wrote:

Is the firefighter to be blamed for pointing out and trying to correct/put out a fire, or the one who lit the match?

sometimes that depends on how close you are to the parties involved.

i wouldnt say im impartial-- id probably trust jaromil to the ends of the earth, but ive been on the wrong (unfair) end of the other person involved. so one has my trust and the other doesnt.

with that said, in these things its usually everyone who is somewhat to blame-- in different amounts, about which can (but who wants to) quibble.

i think for a five-year old project that started with big promises, devuan needs to be a little bit more realistic (and less shoot-the-messenger) about critics. you cant say "criticising devuan is like kicking a puppy"-- im pretty sure jim zemlin already has that trademarked for criticising microsoft. i think what even jaromil doesnt get is that dyne has earned its good reputation, and it cant simply "bestow" that on devuan. like every other distro, devuan has to earn its reputation from users. i have no problem with devuan defending itself against unfair critiques, but there are times when that is given more priority than even helps devuan.

its their distro if thats how they want to do things-- but instead of helping, it ultimately costs more.

i dont think anything would help devuan more than a better relationship with users and the broader community. please remember, i think devuan got the short end of the stick with regards to debian, i think "devuaneers" were treated unfairly and still get smeared on mailing lists. on linuxquestions i was actually saying something good about devuan, but someone else chose to call developers/users "nuts" with regards to security.

ive got my critiques but i still stand up for devuan when its called for. fighting systemd (and things like it) are important and underrated. i like to give credit where credit is due. but that goes both ways.

circling the wagons isnt a solution, but i think devuan is prone to it already. whatever you guys decide to do, its your choice, but people will continue to call you on it. the surest way around that being important is to just strive for excellence, and focus on the least fair critiques-- understand where they come from, and refute them with decency.

but its your distro, you can do what you want. and people will say what they say. some of it may reflect on devuan, some of it may not.

Last edited by freemedia2018 (2019-12-01 18:22:21)


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#13 2019-12-02 09:29:16

jaromil
Member
Registered: 2016-11-28
Posts: 14  
Website

Re: Clarification of the relationship between Dyne and Devuan

Thanks everyone for your replies, they help all of us understand better the "general sentiment" around Devuan as well these controversial episodes.

I'm listening and learning. Still coming from old-school hacker traditions, for me an April Fool is just that and anything strange I see on 1st of April is just that.

But OK. Points taken and I believe nothing like that anymore will happen to Devuan, so we grew some muscle now.

I like these wise sentences

freemedia2018 wrote:

I dont think anything would help devuan more than a better relationship with users and the broader community.
[...]
The surest way around that being important is to just strive for excellence, and focus on the least fair critiques-- understand where they come from, and refute them with decency.

It is a good proposition to stand together, learn from mistakes, learn to not cause more separation, but stay united.

We are showing to the world that minimalism is a great design pattern for reliability and security.

Today Devuan belongs to the community and it should always incarnate the minimum viable product wished by the community, stay simple and sugar-free. If the April Fool's joke was that sugar, then lets remove it. IMHO it could have all been done in a better way, however it's just water under the bridge for now.

The fact this post is pinned in the main Devuan section of the forum prompted me to answer, I wish it would be unpinned actually.

ciao


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