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#1 2023-12-26 14:44:55

bigcat
Member
Registered: 2023-05-10
Posts: 26  

merged /usr

A question to system maintainers, should we install the "usrmerge" debian package?
Please see the following link:  https://salsa.debian.org/md/usrmerge/ra … DME.Debian

After the latest update (devuan testing) the mount command cannot find the mount.nfs binary.  It expects it in /sbin, but nfs-common package installs is in /usr/sbin.   Here is the corresponding entry from debian changelog of nfs-common package

nfs-utils (1:2.6.3-4~exp1) experimental; urgency=medium

nfs-utils (1:2.6.3-4~exp1) experimental; urgency=medium

  * Remove extraneous words left behind by commit 522837f. (Closes: #1051088)
  * Install systemd units to /usr/lib/systemd/system
    - debian/rules: Drop explicit setting with path for Debian
      --with=systemd=/lib/systemd/system and install the systemd units by
      default in /usr/lib/systemd/system trough --with-systemd
    - debian/nfs-common.install: Install systemd units from
      /usr/lib/system/system
    - debian/nfs-kernel-server.install: Install systemd units from
      /usr/lib/system/system
    - debian/*.links: Create symlinks for systemd units from and to
      /usr/lib/systemd/system instead of /lib/systemd/system
  * debian/rules: Don't force nfsdcltrack and mount helpers into /sbin
  * nfs-common: Install {u,}mount.nfs{,4} into /usr/sbin
  * nfs-common: lintian-overides: Adjust paths after installation to /usr/sbin
  * nfs-kernel-server: Install nfsdcltrack to /usr/sbin
  * debian/rules: Update chmod call to fix permissions of /usr/sbin/mount.nfs
  * Install rpc.statd, sm-notify and showmount into /usr/sbin
    - Install binaries to default locations in /usr/sbin
    - Drop now oboslete patches to reference sm-notify from /sbin
    - Drop now obsolete patches to change ExecStart to start sm-notify and
      rpc.statd from /sbin

-- Salvatore Bonaccorso <carnil@debian.org>  Mon, 20 Nov 2023 22:13:01 +0100

Thanks.

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#2 2023-12-28 02:41:22

Concierge6250
Member
Registered: 2023-12-04
Posts: 1  

Re: merged /usr

I certainly hope this will never be mandatory on Devuan. The forced usrmerge was the final straw that made me switch all my Debian servers to Devuan. Even systemd itself is still 'optional' in Debian proper, but since bookworm this ridiculously stupid usrmerge layout can't be avoided anymore. It's pure Freedesktop.org idiocy and should stay out of Devuan.

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#3 2023-12-28 03:09:10

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,109  

Re: merged /usr

There are extensive discussions on the DNG mail list. The takeaway (if I understand it correctly) is that unless we have a huge influx of devs to fork the necessary packages, usrmerge will be unavoidable. Read and draw your own conclusions.

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#4 2023-12-28 10:16:06

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 406  

Re: merged /usr

Maybe we will have to give up on Debian, totally.... & maybe even Linux itself! sad

I, personally, am investigating using BSD instead of Linux, for all of my computing needs - even looking at Haiku as a desktop system. smile

Commercial interests are ruining Linux to my mind..... it just isn't what it used to be. wink

I have really appreciated the effort put in by the Devuan devs, but if it gets to be too great a task in the future, I'll certainly understand......

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#5 2023-12-29 01:42:32

bigcat
Member
Registered: 2023-05-10
Posts: 26  

Re: merged /usr

golinux wrote:

There are extensive discussions on the DNG mail list. The takeaway (if I understand it correctly) is that unless we have a huge influx of devs to fork the necessary packages, usrmerge will be unavoidable. Read and draw your own conclusions.

Thanks.  Looks like I have to suck it up and install it if I were to continue following testing.

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#6 2023-12-29 23:53:32

Micronaut
Member
Registered: 2019-07-04
Posts: 197  

Re: merged /usr

Just out of curiosity, what does this change break? Does it make certain things harder to do? Or reduce security? Or what?

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#7 2023-12-30 00:31:36

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 325  

Re: merged /usr

Not very much... At least in theory. Primarily the ability to have /usr be a separate partition (or network mount) not required to boot the system, which hasn't been a common configuration for several decades now.
In practice, it's a bunch of needless disruption and a whole lot of packaging and testing work to ensure there are no file collisions or other jank, for the sake of some RedHat "improvements" and the usual "systemd doesn't support that, so let's make sure nobody else can either".

Personally I'm going with "IDRGAF unless it breaks my system, but I'll switch when I'm good and ready and I'll be proper annoyed if anyone tries to force it down my throat."
For the record, that doesn't mean I don't think it's stupid. It's just the kind of stupid that (probably) won't set anything on fire if handled carefully.

Standard-issue plug for Gentoo's "Unavoidable if you're running systemd, otherwise here's a profile option and a migration script, do whatever you like with them" approach here.

Last edited by steve_v (2023-12-30 00:53:56)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#8 2023-12-30 00:57:26

bigcat
Member
Registered: 2023-05-10
Posts: 26  

Re: merged /usr

Well, I hope others will not do what I've done this morning. I installed usrmerge and ended up with a system where most things do not work. Trying to recover but will probably just reinstall. Beware.

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#9 2023-12-30 01:03:41

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 325  

Re: merged /usr

Uhh, why would you even contemplate that without backing up the system first?
... Thanks for being a proverbial canary though, I guess. I stand by my "good and ready" statement above. tongue


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#10 2023-12-30 01:24:30

bigcat
Member
Registered: 2023-05-10
Posts: 26  

Re: merged /usr

Home directories are on external storage, configs including /etc are under git and backed up as well. So I will only lose about an hour of my time. But you are right, I should have backed system directories as well.

Last edited by bigcat (2023-12-30 01:26:05)

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#11 2023-12-30 02:10:52

bigcat
Member
Registered: 2023-05-10
Posts: 26  

Re: merged /usr

Well it wasn't too bad. I had to apt-get install --reinstall initramfs-tools, lvm, and dmsetup.

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#12 2023-12-31 08:36:18

EDX-0
Member
Registered: 2020-12-12
Posts: 53  

Re: merged /usr

weird i installed usrmerge back in at least march and everything works, then again i'm on ceres so maybe the usrmerge is more "volatile" on stable but still nothing has broke, as for the argument about uptimes it ain't weird when i clock about 70 days of uptime, the only thing that i've ever noticed not working is the plugin scripts of krita but i never tried using them before the usrmerge so as far as i'm concerned krita on debian is slightly broken and may as well have been forever broken.

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#13 2024-01-02 10:39:48

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn
Member
Registered: 2023-11-27
Posts: 56  

Re: merged /usr

re: @steve_v sig_line: Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

gnome:
ttps://distrowatchers.com/linux_reviews_and_blog/files/c08c1c50e1974df26728362d97d48621-604.html

more:
ttps://distrowatchers.com/linux_reviews_and_blog/index.html

as always, YMMV


Be Excellent to each other and Party On!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rph_1DODXDU
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Ted%27s_Excellent_Adventure
Do unto others as you would have them do instantaneously back to you

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#14 2024-01-02 12:18:48

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn
Member
Registered: 2023-11-27
Posts: 56  

Re: merged /usr

Camtaf wrote:

Maybe we will have to give up on Debian, totally.... & maybe even Linux itself! :(

I, personally, am investigating using BSD instead of Linux, for all of my computing needs - even looking at Haiku as a desktop system. :)

Commercial interests are ruining Linux to my mind..... it just isn't what it used to be. ;)

I have really appreciated the effort put in by the Devuan devs, but if it gets to be too great a task in the future, I'll certainly understand......

I too, truly believe relying on Debian is coming to an end. Thanks to the Devuan team we have had a few extra years! Honestly if it were not for family commitments regarding hardware/software/etc I would already be using _something_ else completely. RIP Debian. damn shame.

indeed.


Be Excellent to each other and Party On!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rph_1DODXDU
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Ted%27s_Excellent_Adventure
Do unto others as you would have them do instantaneously back to you

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#15 2024-01-02 16:18:46

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 325  

Re: merged /usr

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn wrote:

re: @steve_v sig_line: Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

TBH I think I probably stole that from Jamie Zawinski. It's been so true for so long I forget, and it seems to be becoming ever more so as time goes on.
Belated credit where it's due if he was indeed the OG.

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn wrote:

relying on Debian is coming to an end.

Other problems with Debian aside, I don't think usrmerge is a particularly smart hill to die on.
While the transition is a needless PITA to pander to systemd, it's unlikely to cause serious compatibility problems or affect our ability to not run systemd, and that remains the primary purpose of Devuan as a fork/derivative.

Personally I think it would be wiser to spend energy on solving the "sysvinit scripts going away upstream now systemd is deprecating support" problem (and/or improving openrc / runit etc. support) rather than fighting over usrmerge.


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#16 2024-01-02 17:15:43

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 145  

Re: merged /usr

steve_v wrote:

[...]
Personally I think it would be wiser to spend energy on solving the "sysvinit scripts going away upstream now systemd is deprecating support" problem (and/or improving openrc / runit etc. support) rather than fighting over usrmerge.

I wonder if the best way to solve this is a way of reading systemd unit files and auto-generating the equivalent rc scripts. Of course, some things may not be achievable (features that are systemd-only), but at least this would take care of the majority of cases and leave a much smaller set of packages that need manual adaptation to be systemd-free.

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#17 2024-01-02 17:22:44

joril
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2017-04-15
Posts: 44  

Re: merged /usr

bigcat wrote:

Well, I hope others will not do what I've done this morning. I installed usrmerge and ended up with a system where most things do not work. Trying to recover but will probably just reinstall. Beware.

Ouch! Were you on Daedalus? Or Ceres?

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#18 2024-01-02 17:51:23

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,017  

Re: merged /usr

I think the critical point is an upgrade of a non-merged system to a Devuan release which supports usr-merge. As far as I understand the upgrade process you end up with a non-merged Devuan. If you then apply the usr-merge package, you end up with programs in the wrong spot.

I did not mind the usr-merge like many of the participants in this discussion do, I accepted it as a ToDo for the future. I did my latest installations answering the usr-merge-question during the install from the first appearance onward with yes and had no issues with the operation of the systems nor the few release upgrades I did so far.

And from Debian 12 Bookworm onward usr-merge is mandatory and they have started to move packages. This then naturally applies for Debian 13 Trixie as well as for Devuan Daedalus and Excalibur. Have fun ...

Last edited by rolfie (2024-01-02 17:54:46)

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#19 2024-01-02 18:24:02

joril
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2017-04-15
Posts: 44  

Re: merged /usr

rolfie wrote:

I did my latest installations answering the usr-merge-question during the install

I'm sorry, which installation are you referring to? I've just installed Daedalus (netinstall) but there was nothing about usrmerge, have I missed something?

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#20 2024-01-02 18:38:16

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,017  

Re: merged /usr

Well, maybe, you may got a valid point. As an experienced user I always use the netinstall media and expert install, never any live version, and never the simple install. Don't know what is questioned there.

Sorry, didn't consider that.

Last edited by rolfie (2024-01-02 18:38:38)

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#21 2024-01-02 19:14:10

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 325  

Re: merged /usr

The real elephant in this room is, is anyone in the know actually going to answer the OP's question:

bigcat wrote:

A question to system maintainers, should we install the "usrmerge" debian package?

Additionally:
[When] do users of Devuan stable need to convert? How will this be handled?

This:

systems using it will be converted to the new layout when they are upgraded to bookworm.

Clearly doesn't apply to Devuan, and there is nothing in the Daedalus release notes. Do we actually have a plan yet, or are we still at the "futile arguments" stage?


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#22 2024-01-02 19:33:26

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,109  

Re: merged /usr

@steve_v . . . Thank you for trying to bring order and focus to the chaos . . .

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#23 2024-01-02 19:57:05

joril
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2017-04-15
Posts: 44  

Re: merged /usr

steve_v wrote:

Do we actually have a plan yet, or are we still at the "futile arguments" stage?

Well there is an email from Mark Hindley, less than a year ago, relevant bit:

As far as usr merge itself goes, it is available in Devuan (apt-get install usrmerge) but not forced (usrmerge package is not pulled in by init-system-helpers and debootstrap does not install it by default). However, that might not be a sustainable position in the longer term. If that has to change, plenty of warning will be given

Since there's been no warning, I guess it is still fine to keep unmerged.

Last edited by joril (2024-01-02 19:58:14)

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#24 2024-01-02 20:13:12

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,017  

Re: merged /usr

To add my finding about the usrmerge package on my Daedalus installation which was installed more than one year ago from a preview when Daedalus still was Testing, where I answered the question during installation with yes:

# apt list usrmerge
Auflistung… Fertig
usrmerge/stable,stable 35 all 

This package obviously is not installed? What does this tell me? I am confused. According to a German web page I should see links from /bin, the /lib and /libxx folders and /sbin to the respective folders in /usr. I don't see any links.

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#25 2024-01-02 20:21:50

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,017  

Re: merged /usr

Just crosschecked on an older PC in the basement that received a Daedalus installation from a released netinstall: no links, no usrmerge either?

Same on my Excalibur VM.

Question to the responsible for the installer, I this its Ralph Ronnquist: is it possible that the installer failed to execute the usrmerge program despite the answer was yes?

Last edited by rolfie (2024-01-02 20:27:10)

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