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#1 2022-02-12 22:46:53

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

The seitan conundrum

[A very off-topic  response]

xinomilo wrote:

not really into appearance/theme stuff, but mentioning the island where i live, caught my eye smile

Lucky you!  In the 70s I spent 2 summers sailing with a friend from Guernsey to France across the Bay of Biscay to Spain, Portugal, then Tangier, though the Straits of Gibraltar, more Spain and finally Ibiza.  We really wanted to make it all the way to Greece but chatter about pirates from N. Africa targeting Westerners dampened our resolve to actually do it.  LOL!  Sad that I never was able to fulfill that pipe dream . . .

xinomilo wrote:

p.s. in case anyone wonders, picture is from "Seitan Limania" beach.

I am a bit confused  how this Japanese delight got to Greece. But then, I'm confused about a lot of things . . . LOL!

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#2 2022-02-13 13:50:33

Nili
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From: $HOME/♫♪
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 208  
Website

Re: The seitan conundrum

The indigo blue looks just cool, I like it a lot.

Thanks also for sharing your off-topic story golinux.

As for the Japanese market in Greece but also in Italy, it is an old bargain that has always been made between these countries and Japan (at least it was so like that before COVID), Ports of both states have become a springboard for the import of Japanese goods through Europe.

Then there are plenty of people who bring many products from Japan, but not that often as there is a bit of cost.
I know a Greek friend who lives as a Japanese at his home in Greece and only buys Japanese products Online from Japan.


Devuan // CWM (lean & mean)

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#3 2022-02-13 20:01:41

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

Re: The seitan conundrum

Thanks Nili. Interesting connection that answers my question (which likely has nothing to do with the name of that beautiful cove).

I discovered macrobiotics in the 70s and it turned my dietary trajectory on its head! That decision has served me well. I used to make seitan, amazake and other labor intensive (and messy) delights but now I'm too old to go through all that and just cook quite simply.  Nothing like a nishime or a cup of ume-sho-kuzu with ginger  to cure about anything

I wouldn't know how to cook without many Japanese staples in my kitchen: shoyou, miso, all umeboshi variants - whole, paste or vinegar, takuan pickles, kuzu, gomashio, kombu, hato mugi, udon, sencha green tea etc.. There are several distributors in the US that import (mostly) organic varieties of these wonderful foods.  Unfortunately, many of them are now in California harbors waiting to be unloaded.  I'm ready to pounce when they are available again . . .

I wish we could share a cup of green tea!

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#4 2022-02-14 06:44:41

xinomilo
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 229  

Re: The seitan conundrum

golinux wrote:
xinomilo wrote:

p.s. in case anyone wonders, picture is from "Seitan Limania" beach.

I am a bit confused  how this Japanese delight got to Greece. But then, I'm confused about a lot of things . . . LOL!

"Seitan Limania" is a name of turkish origin, but meaning and pronounciation will be a lot easier with a small rewrite  : "Satan Limania".
freely translate's to "satan's harbours". (name probably had something to do with the strong sea currents in the area.... )
so, even though the island is in between 3 continents, and was a major commercial point once, this name (or any other in crete afaik) had nothing to do with Japan... smile


@hoas , each place has it's pros and cons. smile
----

and it goes without saying: if you're ever around, drop me an email.

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#5 2022-02-14 07:58:55

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

Re: The seitan conundrum

xinomilo wrote:
golinux wrote:

p.s. in case anyone wonders, picture is from "Seitan Limania" beach.

I am a bit confused  how this Japanese delight got to Greece. But then, I'm confused about a lot of things . . . LOL!

When I wrote that, I was just playing around.  I knew that connection wasn't the right one but was too lazy to do the legwork to sort it.

xinomilo wrote:

"Seitan Limania" is a name of turkish origin, but meaning and pronunciation will be a lot easier with a small rewrite  : "Satan Limania".
freely translate's to "satan's harbours". (name probably had something to do with the strong sea currents in the area.... )
so, even though the island is in between 3 continents, and was a major commercial point once, this name (or any other in Crete afaik) had nothing to do with Japan... smile

Thanks. Now there's the canonical answer!  Makes perfect sense.

xinomilo wrote:

@hoas , each place has it's pros and cons. smile

It's not where you are. It is who you are that matters. wink Though some environments are definitely more pleasant than others, it is no guarantee of happiness.

xinomilo wrote:

and it goes without saying: if you're ever around, drop me an email.

I would be honored. But rest easy . . . no vax = no air travel. So unless something changes, I'm grounded for the remainder of my years.  smile

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#6 2022-02-17 11:31:00

Nili
Member
From: $HOME/♫♪
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 208  
Website

Re: The seitan conundrum

golinux wrote:

Thanks Nili. Interesting connection that answers my question (which likely has nothing to do with the name of that beautiful cove).

I discovered macrobiotics in the 70s and it turned my dietary trajectory on its head! That decision has served me well. I used to make seitan, amazake and other labor intensive (and messy) delights but now I'm too old to go through all that and just cook quite simply.  Nothing like a nishime or a cup of ume-sho-kuzu with ginger  to cure about anything

I wouldn't know how to cook without many Japanese staples in my kitchen: shoyou, miso, all umeboshi variants - whole, paste or vinegar, takuan pickles, kuzu, gomashio, kombu, hato mugi, udon, sencha green tea etc.. There are several distributors in the US that import (mostly) organic varieties of these wonderful foods.  Unfortunately, many of them are now in California harbors waiting to be unloaded.  I'm ready to pounce when they are available again . . .

I wish we could share a cup of green tea!

Welcome!

Those macrobiotics vegetables fruits are extraordinary. I am a vegetarian and have been consuming similar green foods for years. Also when i turned into the green, i felt physical and mental changes on me. That's was my right decision aswell for fresh plants and fruits.

I have been born on late 70's i am on my forties now, I have a bit of journey to see and experience land products.
Congrat, you seems to have so much information about various Japanese dishes specialties, even if you don't cook em, there are plenty of restaurants or semi-prepared. Wish you a good order as soon as the opportunity arises.

I generally do not cook neutral relatives on my family deal with this task, they always tells me to bring money home and the food job is done smile other alternative solution, we go outside.

I really like a lot Green Tea, enjoy it at any time hot and cold according to the seasons, it is a good medicine.
Thank you so much for the offer and kindness, I am making a cheers by wishing you only a quiet living, and endless taste of macrobiotics.


Devuan // CWM (lean & mean)

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#7 2022-02-17 15:14:45

berni51
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From: Middle of Germany
Registered: 2018-12-20
Posts: 85  
Website

Re: The seitan conundrum

Nice thread, and it reminds me to my macrobiotical start in the early 70s. Firstly I was a hardcore macrobiotic man, later I was more softly. However some food from this period accompanies me till today. It was one of the best choices in my life and the Oshawa cookbook has, beside others, still on its place on my shelf.


The good ol' days will not return, and the rocks might smelt and the sea may burn.

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#8 2022-02-17 15:35:30

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,326  

Re: The seitan conundrum

The evidence is pretty clear in respect of macrobiotic diets: they are not healthy. And remember: the plural of anecdote is not evidence wink


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#9 2022-02-17 16:14:54

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

Re: The seitan conundrum

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

The evidence is pretty clear in respect of macrobiotic diets: they are not healthy. And remember: the plural of anecdote is not evidence wink

LOL . . . I didn't get that memo.  Of course the US gov doesn't want it's citizens to be healthy.  They want the population to be sick because it is a cash cow for the MIC. I figured that out in the 70s and choose a different path that has served me well.

Been doing somewhat modified macro for over 40 years. There have been a few bumps in the road but I'm gonna be 80 this year, take no pharma or even OTC and have no chronic conditions so I must be doing something right. I opted out of Medicare because I only see a doctor friend for blood testing every couple of years and all the boxes check OK when I do.  If something comes up and I can't heal myself, I call my acupuncturist/herbalist for advice.  Works for me . . .

I prefer my anecdote to the misery that I see around me, thank you.  big_smile

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#10 2022-02-17 16:29:36

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

Re: The seitan conundrum

@Nili and berni51 . . . Yeah, macro "just works" if it is done properly. I raise a cup of green tea and send well wishes to both of you!  And also to our resident curmudgeon, HoaS . . .

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#11 2022-02-19 11:30:13

Nili
Member
From: $HOME/♫♪
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 208  
Website

Re: The seitan conundrum

@golinux Congratulations for 80 years on your shoulder. WOW 80's Unimaginable, I hope to live so. smile Cheers to you and the above members.


Devuan // CWM (lean & mean)

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#12 2022-02-19 12:50:52

hevidevi
Member
Registered: 2021-09-17
Posts: 225  

Re: The seitan conundrum

golinux wrote:
Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

The evidence is pretty clear in respect of macrobiotic diets: they are not healthy. And remember: the plural of anecdote is not evidence wink

LOL . . . I didn't get that memo.  Of course the US gov doesn't want it's citizens to be healthy.  They want the population to be sick because it is a cash cow for the MIC. I figured that out in the 70s and choose a different path that has served me well.

Been doing somewhat modified macro for over 40 years. There have been a few bumps in the road but I'm gonna be 80 this year, take no pharma or even OTC and have no chronic conditions so I must be doing something right. I opted out of Medicare because I only see a doctor friend for blood testing every couple of years and all the boxes check OK when I do.  If something comes up and I can't heal myself, I call my acupuncturist/herbalist for advice.  Works for me . . .

I prefer my anecdote to the misery that I see around me, thank you.  big_smile

I havent been to the doctors office for 8 years, last time i was there was my own fault for living a rich lifestyle. My mother is a runner who would actually run rings around me being 30 years older at 72, she runs around 100km + a month in running clubs and social gatherings, unvaxxed too. I do follow a macro diet/vegetarian as best i can, many health benefits over eating highly processed meats and dairy.

Last edited by hevidevi (2022-02-19 12:55:40)

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#13 2022-02-19 13:42:13

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,326  

Re: The seitan conundrum

Yeah, because clinically-controlled trials with statistically significant p values for their results are completely meaningless compared to four people suffering from a clear case of confirmation bias.

EDIT: sorry, I'm hungry. It makes me even more grumpy than usual.

EDIT2: no, I won't eat that ****ing macrobiotic ****. It's a marketing con, pure & simple. Just like those bollocks "superfoods".

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-02-19 14:03:58)


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#14 2022-02-19 14:12:04

hevidevi
Member
Registered: 2021-09-17
Posts: 225  

Re: The seitan conundrum

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Yeah, because clinically-controlled trials with statistically significant p values for their results are completely meaningless compared to four people suffering from a clear case of confirmation bias.

EDIT: sorry, I'm hungry. It makes me even more grumpy than usual.

EDIT2: no, I won't eat that ****ing macrobiotic ****. It's a marketing con, pure & simple. Just like those bollocks "superfoods".

No one is forcing or wanting you to eat anything. You must be a bit unhinged for a reply like this, maybe step away from the digital life and take a long hard look in the mirror.

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#15 2022-02-19 14:23:43

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,326  

Re: The seitan conundrum

hevidevi wrote:

You must be a bit unhinged for a reply like this

No **** Sherlock big_smile

EDIT for clarity: yes, I suffer from mental health problems.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-02-19 14:25:53)


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#16 2022-02-19 14:27:23

hevidevi
Member
Registered: 2021-09-17
Posts: 225  

Re: The seitan conundrum

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
hevidevi wrote:

You must be a bit unhinged for a reply like this

No **** Sherlock big_smile

EDIT for clarity: yes, I suffer from mental health problems.

Owning it like a boss.

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#17 2022-02-19 16:07:42

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

Re: The seitan conundrum

Hoas . . . Wake up! There is no "data" that does not have confirmation bias because humans collect and interpret it.  Humans are quite selfish, deluded and unreliable creatures. Data is most often used as a weapon to manipulate and control populations to create fear (mostly of death) but also to increase desire. It is pure marketing genius.  Marshall McLuhan understood this decades ago.  It is a capitalist's wet dream . . .

I just live my life happily and ignore the farce of human stupidity.

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#18 2022-02-19 18:05:35

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,326  

Re: The seitan conundrum

golinux wrote:

There is no "data" that does not have confirmation bias because humans collect and interpret it.

For the first paper to which I linked the data in question was the children's height, weight and arm circumference. Any claims of misinterpretation in respect of such data are clearly ridiculous.

Perhaps actually read the paper and offer substantive criticisms of the methods instead?


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#19 2022-02-19 18:13:50

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

Re: The seitan conundrum

@Hoas . . . There is a reference in your first anti-macro post that points to https://aspenjournals.onlinelibrary.WILEY.com.  Did you take note of that name - Wiley? I suspect but do not know for sure that it refers to Harvey Wiley who in the late 19th and early 20th centuries fought for safe food in the US but I strongly suspect it does.

He was an heroic yet tragic figure who stood up to the monopoly industrial food manufacturers that were adding dangerous and deadly chemicals to preserve food. He ran the newly created FDA until money and the political machine had its way and he was hounded out of the government regulatory process.

I find it pretty ironic that this site that would choose to honor someone who fought his entire life for safe, unadulterated food would publish a paper denigrating macrobiotics which promotes just that . . .

HND smile

edit: Ha! We both landed in the same place at the same time . . .

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#20 2022-02-19 18:27:19

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,326  

Re: The seitan conundrum

The hosting website of the paper does not affect the data contained therein. The principle of peer review ensures that any methodological or statistical errors would be picked up by others not connected to the institution to which you refer.

I appreciate that the medical system in the US does appear to be fundamentally broken but I live in the UK and here an NHS doctor's pay does not depend on the prescriptions they write. We have NICE to ensure that any and all spending is tightly controlled and offers the best value possible.

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-02-19 18:28:34)


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#21 2022-02-19 18:43:22

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

Re: The seitan conundrum

Head trips give me a headache. I have spent over 40 years allowing the detritus in the mind to fade away.  Why would I want to stuff it with more?  I make decisions intuitively and live on my own terms without regrets or fear of the future and take full responsibility for the consequences.  It works for me and seems to have done so very well. That's all I can say . . .

Well, one more thing . . . Western medicine looks through the wrong end of the kaleidoscope. Period. It can kiss my skinny behind . . . big_smile

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#22 2022-02-19 19:55:31

xinomilo
Member
Registered: 2017-07-02
Posts: 229  

Re: The seitan conundrum

According to a village neighor who lived up to 101 (farmer tiil he died, never bedded), his secret was a glass of red wine each day.. so, who knows. Green tea, red wine, gin tonic...  and who wants to live forever after all? smile
(apart from some super-rich narcisstic scum...)

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#23 2022-02-19 21:25:58

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

Re: The seitan conundrum

xinomilo wrote:

. . . and who wants to live forever after all?

Just to clarify . . . long life has never been the focus of my journey since that has no intrinsic value.  All life spans have a temporal limitation so such a quest is pure folly. Value can only be found in how wisely we live. smile A longer life does provide a greater opportunity to figure this out . . .

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#24 2022-02-20 21:44:30

Kelsoo
Member
Registered: 2016-12-09
Posts: 31  

Re: The seitan conundrum

golinux wrote:

[A very off-topic  response]

xinomilo wrote:

not really into appearance/theme stuff, but mentioning the island where i live, caught my eye smile

Lucky you!  In the 70s I spent 2 summers sailing with a friend from Guernsey to France across the Bay of Biscay to Spain, Portugal, then Tangier, though the Straits of Gibraltar, more Spain and finally Ibiza.  We really wanted to make it all the way to Greece but chatter about pirates from N. Africa targeting Westerners dampened our resolve to actually do it.  LOL!  Sad that I never was able to fulfill that pipe dream . . .

xinomilo wrote:

p.s. in case anyone wonders, picture is from "Seitan Limania" beach.

I am a bit confused  how this Japanese delight got to Greece. But then, I'm confused about a lot of things . . . LOL!

As far as I'm concerned Satan is a cracking name for Seitan. The wheat meat, gluten meat, thing or any gluten. I have suffered with IBD for years after wrongly being told I had IBS and "It was down to my age and I would have to live with it". A chance change in my diet which by most measures has been considered very healthy has transformed my gut health and quality of life.

At first I removed bread, then wheat, then all cereal grain from my diet. Thinking about it I don't have four stomachs so no wonder my guts complained about me eating grass! No sugar. No processed food apart from a limited amount of dairy. No additives, sugar, sauces or flavouring etc.

I like things nice n easy. No having to read labels and research every produce I might want to eat. Hence my diet is nice n easy to. No bullshit make believe pasta or GF bread etc.

Food: Plain unadulterated veg, fruit, meat (red and white), fish, nuts&seeds, eggs, 3 dairy products milk, hard cheese, and yogurt.

Drink: water, 100% fruit juice, tea, coffee, whisky, cider, wine.
Note: Distilled spirits only contain gluten if added after distillation. Cider, wine, sherry, spirits, port and liqueurs are gluten free.

Condiments & stuff: salt (rarely), pepper, chilli oil (home made), honey, herbs, spices

Result is happy guts, no daily steroids, an extra hour a day to do things I like doing, I'm less hungry and have more energy. Minus 12kg, though I put this down to no beer! If you like your conspiracy theories look up the Chorleywood bread process and Gliadin protein it's considered an opiate.

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#25 2022-02-21 02:10:09

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,503  

Re: The seitan conundrum

Hey Kelsoo . . . it's been a while,  Nice to see you. smile

Thanks for sharing your story. You have discovered that "the cure is in the kitchen".  That's always been the case but between industrial farming, soils depleted of nutrients, processed foods and humans fiddling with food genetics, it's getting harder and harder to find healthy food.  In another few decades, I expect most every biological form will have been "improved" by human hubris.  I shudder to think of the consequences on human health. Never fear . . . the effects will keep the MIC humming along . . .

Thankfully, I don't have a problem with any foods but I wanted to leave some comments here for you to ponder.  You never mentioned organics and I'm curious why.  Also here's an interesting interview with William Davis, M.D. from Acres USA in 2013 titled Weighing In on Wheat.  That was a great publication with which I collaborated for many years on GMO issues. Anyway, perhaps that will offer an insight to the explosion of gluten issues that started popping up around that time.  There was also an interesting story  by Katya Thomas in 2012 titled "I Love Gluten" that discusses ways to "fix" the problem from a macrobiotic perspective. I searched and came up empty but I can send you the PDF if you're interested. You can also tell me to bugger off!  LOL!!

A final note . . . I mill the more ancient varieties of wheat - spelt and kamut -  along with other grains like oats, millet and brown rice . You might give those a try if you're feeling adventurous. They might not cause you distress.  There is nothing that compares to the fragrance and taste of freshly milled grains!  Pure heaven!!!

Wishing you good health !

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