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Well said, steve_v. It is the reckless human factor in your equation that has been, is and always will be the problem . . .
If that means "stop doing [x] until we have more data" . . .
There have been NO long-term multi-generational studies of the consequences of consuming genetically altered foods and never will be. So no data to analyze. The populace is the open lab . . .
Some of the articles archived at https://www.saynotogmos.org/scientists_speak.html are from the most respected scientists of the late 20th and early 21st centuries and they wrote quite eloquently why it was a bad idea . . ..
There was one near disaster - https://www.saynotogmos.org/klebsiella.html - that was narrowly avoided at the 11th hour. Would have been a blockbuster movie!
All the history of that transition is on that site which is why I still keep it available even though I stopped updating it over a decade ago.
@alexkemp . . .
Interesting USA-predominant history lesson . . .
To expand on that idea here are some excerpts from the 1975 best-selling classic, SUGAR BLUES by William Dufty, which details the genesis of the FDA. Below are a few excerpts from the relevant chapter - Codes of Honesty:
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The Pure Food and Drug Laws are frequently regarded as landmarks in the history of social legislation. Certainly, government can have no higher aim than to attempt to protect the health of the people. Perhaps biological decline was well along when it became necessary to pass laws to prevent people, out of excessive devotion to moneymaking, from poisoning one another.
"When people lost sight of the way to live," wrote Lao Tsu. "came codes of love and honesty."
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The campaign for passage of the Pure Food and Drug Laws had been conducted out in the open. Its undoing was accomplished in the dark. Food processors and rectified whiskey makers formed a united front to sabotage Wiley and his bureau. Representatives of the food business camped on the doorsteps of legislators, cabinet officers, and the president of the United States, complaining that sacred capital was being confiscated, praying, begging, and blackmailing for relief from the policies of Wiley and his bureau.
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Upton Sinclair's book The Jungle had helped turn the tide in favor of the Pure Food and Drug Laws. After he left government, Dr. Wlley wrote a book telling the whole sordid story of how those laws had been scuttled from within government. He knew where the bodies were buried, and he resolved to tell it all and let the American people get riled up once again. However, he was no politician. Again he underestimated the forces arrayed against him. Wiley, undertaking to finance his book, turned his precious manuscript over to a printer. That manuscript mysteriously 'disappeared" and has never been found to this day. Just how these things are done is rarely uncovered.
Shattered but unbroken, Dr. Wiley valiantly returned to work, rewriting his book from scratch. This chore occupied him totally for ten years. He tried to update matters, but by 1929 many of his shocking revelations were already old hat. Some of the villains were dead. Most of the politicians had passed on or at least out of power. Still, his volume The "History of a Crime Against the Food Law" was a primer on government corruption, quite unlike anything that had ever been written before. This time, he tried to protect himself. He took no chances on the manuscript getting lost again. Every facet of its production and printing was personally supervised by Wiley. When distribution began in 1929, it looked like a best seller. Books disappeared rapidly from bookstore shelves. Yet no letters were received from readers, no congratulations, no kudos, and virtually no reviews. The books kept on disappearing, yet copies could not be found anywhere.
In desperation, Dr. Wiley put the few remaining books in libraries around the country - they disappeared from libraries as quickly as they had vanished from the stores. Try your neighborhood library today and see if you can find a copy. It should surprise no one today that these things can happen, when the advertising budget for one food conglomerate is larger than the entire annual budget of the government agency charged with policing the industry.
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The Bureau of Chemistry was finally legally dismantled. In its place, the Food and Drug and Insecticide Administration, precursor of the Food and Drug Administration was established. The Poison Squad, that group of healthy young men on whom Dr. Wiley had tested proposed new food additives before allowing the foods to be turned loose on the public at large, was ultimately replaced by the FDA's GRAS (Generally Regarded as Safe) list - a list of food colorings, additives, and adulterants. Manufacturers and food processors were given carte blanche to use practically anything in its products until evidence turned up that it might be injurious to the public health. The whole intent of the Pure Food and Drug Laws had been turned on its head.
The Poison Squad was enlarged to include everybody in the country. Today, the GRAS list has become so lengthy that the average American ingests five pounds of chemical additives every year, together with approximately another fifty pounds of hidden sugar.
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Some years ago, PBS did a documentary on Wiley titled "The Poison Squad" which was really quite good with lots of archival footage.
@The-Amnesiac-Philosopher . . . Regarding organic standards . . .
Back in the late 90s before there were organic "standards" in the US, I spoke at a USDA hearing gathering comments from the public on what the standards should be. There were the "Big 3" that we wanted prohibited: Genetic engineering, sewage sludge and #3 escapes me at the moment - probably synthetic chemicals. We were successful but they've been chipping away at it ever since.
I also attended several of their earliest conventions that were held locally some years later so I got to know the players really well. There was a hearing at one of those events where various producers were lobbying for this or that chemical or additive or process to be approved as "organic". It was horrifying. IIRC, it was Jim Riddle in charge back then and he requested that I speak because I was the only consumer voice in the audience! I gave 'em hell!! The fact that Organic Standards are under the the "USDA Agricultural Marketing Service" about says it all but it's what we've got. Here are some links:
https://www.ams.usda.gov/rules-regulations/organic
https://www.ams.usda.gov › services › organic-certification › organic-basics
https://www.saynotogmos.org/regulatory. … _timetable
I eat 99% organic, buy very few items from the grocery section and prepare all my meals from scratch. It works for me
@recklesswing . . . Huh? All previous Devuan themes are available in the repos and at https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documenta … t/graphics. If you want a dark mode DIY. That's how I started theming many years ago . . .
You are right on target. Between the "Green Revolution" and additives/preservatives and genetic engineering etc. almost nothing on grocery shelves is "real food" anymore. US doesn't want it's people to be healthy. They want to make sure the MIC (Medical Industrial Complex) thrives! Western medicine is a 'war' not healing. But that is another subject . . .
@boughtonp . . . My question was rhetorical. I already knew what the answer would be. ![]()
Sorry, I just don't see the point of duplicating information that is already available at:
bugs.devuan.org
devuan-dev mail list
DNG mail list
IRC channels
dev1galaxy forum
Anyone seriously interested in engaging with Devuan should monitor those sources. It is that simple.
The desire for instant gratification is destined for frustration and disappointment. Grinders get there eventually . . .
When is it appropriate to full quote?
Never. Only quote specific parts of a post that is not in the immediate vicinity of your response to refresh peoples' memory . . . [edit] Note that this preference has evolved over the years in response to user behavior.
My reply was intense because a number of people have asked the same of you and your behavior never changes. It is frustrating for many on this forum not just me.
Flamewar? Nope. You are just like a puppy who never learns that the newspaper is on the floor for a purpose and keeps dumping elsewhere . . . Sorry . . . that's the best analogy I could come up with atm. LOLOL!
In any case, a clear set of...
1) low-hanging bugs that someone with 0-6 years experience might be able to handle;
2) packages/scenarios that could benefit from further testing;
3) topics that have missing or incomplete documentation;...would be a helpful addition to post #1 of that thread and/or a dedicated "how to help" page on the website itself.
Are you volunteering to take on that task? ![]()
Resources in addition to this forum include:
bugs.devuan.org
devuan-dev mail list
DNG mail list
IRC channels
It would require frequent updates and by the time published, the bugs would probably be fixed.
It is more important to fix bugs than make lists about fixing bugs imo . . .
Some changes to www and this forum should probably be made to reflect that reality . . .
You not only rant. You insist on full-quoting every post immediately above to which you respond . PLEASE STOP DOING THAT! You have been asked by a number of people to do so yet you persist . . .
Note: Full quote removed!
@zapper . . . You rant and rant on. Week after week. Month after month. Year after year. It gets tiresome . . .
This forum is not you therapy playground.
It would be better to actually DO SOMETHING about it instead of just advancing "the destruction of the planet" by burning bytes in such a useless manner over and over and over . . .
Devuan is drowning in tasks that need attention. A change in focus would be welcome . . . ![]()
But the theme looks slightly different from the conventional Clearlooks theme. But under icons there is no Sapphire theme.
That is because I reused the "Deep Sea" icon set from Chimaera with the "Sapphire" theme.
And if there are no more user-defined themes in the future, then all we have left is Clearlooks ;-)
All the previous customized Devuan themes including icons will still be available.
All the previous versions always had newer themes and icons after the update. Daedalus has nothing of the sort. Somehow Daedalus doesn't really seem to be finished.
Yes, there is a Daedalus "Sapphire" theme and it is in the repos. It should be the default with an Xfce install. You can also install from the files at https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documenta … t/graphics .
That being said . . . beginning with Excalibur there will no longer be custom theming unless someone steps up to do it. The previous themes will remain in the repos/git until they no longer function properly with gtk3 "advances".
Can you please stay on topic.
Saw you on IRC too. Good place to hang out . . .
Just did an update like normal on Excalibur/Ceres on my main desktop . . .
Please note that Excalibur is "testing" while Ceres is "unstable" so breakage is to be expected . . .
Please review Devuan releases.
I really don't know what they are talking about . . .
No kidding . . . LOL!
@oneofthehorses . . .
You are not the first to suggest a Mint Edition of Devuan. Back in 2018 someone contacted me about doing just what you are proposing but it never materialized . . .
Are you aware that Devuan has a thriving list of "Devuan Derivatives"? Feel free to do your thing and offer it there.
I really really hope some open source will survive Big Tech and their shiny new clothes.
Their shinny new shackles might be more appropriate . . .
If Xfce becomes unusable, there are always window managers . . .
The dumbing down of interfaces and infantilisation of users is a trend that needs to stop.
It concentrates power at the top which is the whole point of infantilizing users.
Welcome to the forum, Gnostic!
Have you looked at the README?
Did you download from here?
It can take a while to figure out where things are . . . ![]()
One more question . . . should this be moved to ARM builds where the ARM folks hang out? I may do that later . . .
@ralph.ronnquist . . . Thanks! That sounds like a good solution for me. You know how pointy-clicky I've gotten in my old age so will likely take me a few days to summon my inner nerd . . . LOL!
Thanks to both of you!
@Altoid . . . How embarrassing that I didn't even think to search this forum.
I'll go stand in a corner now . . . ![]()
@ralph.ronnquist . . .
1. Can sending ./xsession-errors to /dev/null be undone? There might come a time when it would be needed. I'm assuming yes by just removing those bits described.
2 and 3: Would either or both of those options require any action on my part? Or could they be configured to only save one or two entries? I'm hoping to never have to see that file again!
I can remember when the entries were actually fixable and it was a bit of fun to do so. Complexification is such a bottomless pit . . . LOL!