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#1 2023-11-09 02:08:20

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 324  

The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

Figured I had better crosspost this gem from an also somewhat interesting thread on the Gentoo board, for a good laugh if nothing else.
Couple of choice hot-takes:

Following Poettering's guidance, I created this bsod tool.

I have to modify it to take over the entire screen, turn it blue, and display the QR code.

...

in case you wonder what a VT is, it's this archaic textual display logic that the linux kernel uses to do early boot logging before wayland/x11 take over

I wish it were parody... But apparently this really is the level some systemd contributors are operating on, and aping even the most inane and idiotic windows "features" is not only given consideration, this stinky floater has actually been merged.

If it were me reviewing that pull, I would have laughed my arse off, and followed up with a flat "no".

Long may Devuan (and other sane distributions of note) continue to not package or otherwise encourage this amateur-hour circus.

Last edited by steve_v (2023-11-09 02:16:28)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#2 2023-11-09 21:15:45

zapper
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Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 818  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

steve, most things redhat makes are on that level... I kid you not. dbus, is the hardest to remove that I know of.

Point being, the problems started before systemd even was conceived. I have learned this by web searches, chats, research, info, etc...

the fact that so many things depend on dbus and other irrelevant dependencies when better options exist, yet people choose to use these...

I mean dbus fingerprints your hardware id! What possible reason does this make any sense?

Aiye...

then there is pulseaudio, pipewire, avahi, etc...

Even if you don't use those programs, their libraries are still required to install most things on mainstream distros, even if the programs work without them just fine.

Devuan though not mainstream still has some of this.

Dependencies should always be required ones that are needed to make it function. If dependencies required is anything more than that, its a freedom breaker. Its the devs way of saying, "We want you to use this!"

Why should they have a say? Answer: They shouldn't.

I guess K.I.S.S has been abandoned by mainstream distros and even some derivatives.

Archlinux being the biggest hypocrite of the bunch...

tongue

Lightweight my ass.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
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#3 2023-11-13 23:02:16

UnixMan1230
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Registered: 2023-10-21
Posts: 36  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

I really, GENUINELY hope this is another "Module" and not hard-grained into systemd core. At least then it can be optional like systemd-oomd and others in Debian, and not the default. But I have a sad, sneaking feeling this isn't the case.

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#4 2023-11-14 02:09:27

steve_v
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Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 324  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

Of bigger concern to me is the implied attitude - VTs and text interfaces are "archaic" (and need to be explained to contributors to an init system), and the way to present system errors is with QR codes.

The dumbing down of interfaces and infantilisation of users is a trend that needs to stop. It's systemic in everything coming out of redhat / freedesktop these days, and IMO it's as much an attack on software freedom as their concurrent push toward weak(or non)-copyleft open-source licences is.

With software there are only two possibilities: either the users control the program or the program controls the users. If the program controls the users, and the developer controls the program, then the program is an instrument of unjust power.
-- Richard M Stallman

I see little functional difference between the developer controlling the software because the source is withheld, and the developer controlling the software because it's intentionally designed to be difficult for the user to understand, and crucial aspects of it's functioning are hidden behind abstraction layers and "user freindly" interfaces.
Likewise, if the user doesn't understand the software (or more to the point, isn't meant to), the user cannot control it.

Learned helplessness is where we're headed with our current trajectory of big tech monopolies, disposable subscription gadgets, toddler-oriented interfaces and and inscrutable AI "assistants", and helpless users are at the mercy of big technology corporations and the developers they employ.

Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
-- Frank Herbert, Dune

Last edited by steve_v (2023-11-14 02:31:44)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#5 2023-11-14 02:17:00

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,109  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

steve_v wrote:

The dumbing down of interfaces and infantilisation of users is a trend that needs to stop.

It concentrates power at the top which is the whole point of infantilizing users.

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#6 2023-11-14 02:32:37

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 324  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

golinux wrote:

It concentrates power at the top which is the whole point of infantilizing users.

I know. See edit rant above. tongue

On BSOD in particular, among the many things that drove me to switch to GNU/Linux in the first place were the powerful always-available CLI and the verbose, informative error handling. Both of which are apparently in the process of being deprecated, by people whose motivations are suspect to say the least.

Last edited by steve_v (2023-11-14 02:41:14)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#7 2023-11-14 13:53:30

FM81
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Registered: 2017-09-16
Posts: 30  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

smile
I also have a few ideas, which systemd-parts needs to be invented urgently:
systemd-devicemanager
systemd-internetexplorer (sorry, too old, please use systemd-edgebrowser instead)
systemd-outlook
systemd-msoffice
and most important of all: systemd-registry (to avoid all that crappy files/directories beneath '/etc/')

Systemd is a cool operating system. If only the annoying linux substructure wouldn't exist ...

Best regards, FM_81


The most brilliant role in comedy is that of a fool, he must not be in order to make it seem. (Miguel de Cervantes)

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#8 2023-11-14 14:03:18

boughtonp
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From: UK
Registered: 2023-01-19
Posts: 195  
Website

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

FM81 wrote:

and most important of all: systemd-registry (to avoid all that crappy files/directories beneath '/etc/')

It's already here, and called dconf.

Last edited by boughtonp (2023-11-14 14:07:23)


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#9 2023-11-16 15:02:13

UnixMan1230
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Registered: 2023-10-21
Posts: 36  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

FM81 wrote:

Systemd is a cool operating system. If only the annoying linux substructure wouldn't exist ...

https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Systemd
We laugh, but this article is getting closer and closer to reality

Last edited by UnixMan1230 (2023-11-16 15:02:45)

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#10 2023-11-16 17:44:32

swanson
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Registered: 2020-04-22
Posts: 85  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

From the link above

systemd was originally born as a replacement for other useless init daemons, targeted for the Linux platform, which couldn't properly initialize the system.

It's really terrible! What's the world coming to?

PS Read the whole article
PPS I didn't. (Hiding in the corner)

Last edited by swanson (2023-11-16 20:35:42)

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#11 2023-11-16 18:14:35

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher
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Registered: 2023-08-24
Posts: 237  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

swanson wrote:

It's really terrible! What's the world coming to?

Yes. The world is coming to whatever...

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#12 2023-11-16 19:15:21

alexkemp
Member
Registered: 2018-05-14
Posts: 282  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

UnixMan1230 wrote:

https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Systemd
We laugh, but this article is getting closer and closer to reality

That was wonderful. This was perfection:

systemd … is certainly the nicest and most complete operating system ever created, with the only downside it lacks a decent init daemon

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#13 2023-11-17 15:11:15

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher
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Registered: 2023-08-24
Posts: 237  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

swanson wrote:

PS Read the whole article
PPS I didn't. (Hiding in the corner)

It's a quick read. YOU CAN DO IT!!! smile

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#14 2023-11-28 19:57:58

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 818  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

golinux wrote:
steve_v wrote:

The dumbing down of interfaces and infantilisation of users is a trend that needs to stop.

It concentrates power at the top which is the whole point of infantilizing users.

The fisher price eye candy approach, needs to die and be replaced with the idea of, making it more intelligently designed even if its harder for users to use. Although, do it gradually.

Otherwise, users are stupid moronic children that can be mass manipulated on a huge scale like microsoft is doing to their users.

I detest the new firefox for this reason and all that horsecrap systemd, dbus, pulseaudio, pipewire and their dependants. Not to mention rust, java and other bloated overengineered garbage.

If I want to uninstall stuff that doesn't need to be a dependant and isn't being used, I should be able to do it without taking the whole thing off.

Debian = F*** YOU! We will do what we want no matter how stupid it is and how ugly and bloated it is.

Redhat = The above times a million!

EDIT:

I knew this was true!

*To accommodate for its scheme, the PID 1 program grew by a factor of 23.9 in disk-space and 3.2 in memory footprint; this technique of increased hardware requirements is one that Microsoft also uses for their Windows platform so as to please manufacturers and ensure continued sales of new hardware. *

Microsoft are a bunch of assholes, I had a feeling they were trying to coerce people to buy new hardware to please manufacturers. Why am I not surprised...

What a pile of horse crap. They must really want to increase the destruction of the planet by planned obsolescence which leads to a hardware graveyard increase.

Damn short-sighted idiots...

Last edited by zapper (2023-11-28 20:02:49)


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
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#15 2023-11-28 21:13:06

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,109  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

@zapper . . . You rant and rant on. Week after week. Month after month. Year after year. It gets tiresome . . .

This forum is not you therapy playground.

It would be better to actually DO SOMETHING about it instead of just advancing "the destruction of the planet" by burning bytes in such a useless manner over and over and over . . .

Devuan is drowning in tasks that need attention. A change in focus would be welcome . . . big_smile

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#16 2023-11-28 22:16:39

zapper
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Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 818  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

golinux wrote:

@zapper . . . You rant and rant on. Week after week. Month after month. Year after year. It gets tiresome . . . [cut]

I take it you read this then

https://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Systemd

The bottom part of it?

This being said,  I guess I do rant a lot. I wouldn't say I do it that often though, given I am not on devuan forums that often as a whole. When I do, sure, but its not that often. This being said, I am hardly the only one who does this.

However Doing something probably would help if I knew how/what


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#17 2023-11-28 22:29:12

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,109  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

You not only rant. You insist on full-quoting every post immediately above to which you respond . PLEASE STOP DOING THAT! You have been asked by a number of people to do so yet you persist . . .

Note: Full quote removed!

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#18 2023-11-28 22:51:41

boughtonp
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From: UK
Registered: 2023-01-19
Posts: 195  
Website

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

golinux wrote:

Devuan is drowning in tasks that need attention. A change in focus would be welcome . . .

Where are these tasks listed?

The bottom of the Community page of the Devuan website has:

https://www.devuan.org/os/community wrote:

How You Can Help Devuan

Devuan is a large endeavor involving people of all ages, from different countries, with a rainbow of skills and interests. Anyone can contribute to ensure that Devuan maintains its role as a stable and reliable universal operating system. Feedback is essential for Devuan to grow and prosper. Here are some ways you can help.

The link is to a pinned How you can help Devuan thread from 2017, of which the items that someone with sufficient spare time might be able to help with would seem to be, fix bugs, test packages, or write documentation.

Six years zapper was "not experienced enough to do coding yet" - maybe that has changed?

In any case, a clear set of...

1) low-hanging bugs that someone with 0-6 years experience might be able to handle;
2) packages/scenarios that could benefit from further testing;
3) topics that have missing or incomplete documentation;

...would be a helpful addition to post #1 of that thread and/or a dedicated "how to help" page on the website itself.

Last edited by boughtonp (2023-11-28 22:51:58)


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#19 2023-11-28 23:07:11

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,109  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

boughtonp wrote:

In any case, a clear set of...

1) low-hanging bugs that someone with 0-6 years experience might be able to handle;
2) packages/scenarios that could benefit from further testing;
3) topics that have missing or incomplete documentation;

...would be a helpful addition to post #1 of that thread and/or a dedicated "how to help" page on the website itself.

Are you volunteering to take on that task? big_smile

Resources in addition to this forum include:
bugs.devuan.org
devuan-dev mail list
DNG mail list
IRC channels

It would require frequent updates and by the time published, the bugs would probably be fixed.

It is more important to fix bugs than make lists about fixing bugs imo . . .

Some changes to www and this forum should probably be made to reflect that reality . . .

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#20 2023-11-29 02:05:41

zapper
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Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 818  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

golinux wrote:

You not only rant. You insist on full-quoting every post immediately above to which you respond . PLEASE STOP DOING THAT!
Note: Full quote removed!

When is it appropriate to full quote?'

By the way. that was one intense reply. That's usually not you.

Kind of irks me, I sometimes have had a short temper. There is no need to try and start a flame war with me.  I am sure you don't see it this way, but I see it this way.

And that's my final edit:

Last edited by zapper (2023-11-29 02:20:14)


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
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#21 2023-11-29 02:11:51

zapper
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Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 818  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

Are you volunteering to take on that task? big_smile

Resources in addition to this forum include:Are you volunteering to take on that task? big_smile

That depends, I usually don't use devuan, its more like a backup for me. Also, I know barely any coding, due to what some might call "laziness"

I usually learn what I think I need to accomplish what I want unless it drains me too much.

PS, I think I learned how to quote a small amount just now instead of the whole post.

middle key after highlighting what I want to quote, seems to do the job.

No one told me this, otherwise I would have sooner, to avoid the pointless jabs at my whole quoting.

I don't like being jabbed at, lecture, or shouted at.

If its in all caps, especially.

I don't really code even for my usual OS, Hyperbola. That should say how much coding can be a drain on me.

Although, sometimes I can make small changes to pkgbuilds at least. Thanks to them being plain text written in a language format that you can open with text editors. Not sure if you can with .deb packages.

wink


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#22 2023-11-29 02:37:52

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,109  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

zapper wrote:

When is it appropriate to full quote?

Never. Only quote specific parts of a post that is not in the immediate vicinity of your response to refresh peoples' memory . . . [edit] Note that this preference has evolved over the years in response to user behavior.

My reply was intense because a number of people have asked the same of you and your behavior never changes. It is frustrating for many on this forum not just me.

Flamewar? Nope. You are just like a puppy who never learns that the newspaper is on the floor for a purpose and keeps dumping elsewhere . . . Sorry . . . that's the best analogy I could come up with atm.  LOLOL!

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#23 2023-11-29 02:56:32

zapper
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Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 818  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

Well you aren't the first person to drive me nuts today, so its forgivable I guess.

Nor are you the worst...

My behaviour mostly didn't change because I hadn't known how to properly.

The mid key highlight was something I was oblivious to/didn't think about. Some places I did, this wasn't one of them. Go figure, my mind has been in a weird place lately.

EDIT: Just as an add, sometimes I have been lost inside or my memory screws itself up. Its only a few years ago, I learned of a tragic issue. And that's about it.

Probably best to get back on topic though, right?

When I brought up that stuff up about systemd and other linux frameworks, I considered it similar problems. Hence me bringing it up.

The worst is dbus though.

Escaping that mess is a hell on linux.

That's why my main distro is making a fork of OpenBSD instead of continuing the dying linux leanness trend.

Last edited by zapper (2023-11-29 03:00:03)


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
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#24 2023-11-29 18:10:06

boughtonp
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From: UK
Registered: 2023-01-19
Posts: 195  
Website

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

golinux wrote:

Are you volunteering to take on that task?

No, because I don't know what would populate them.

(Well, I could probably come up a list of things that I think should be documented, but that'd be adding more to already full plates, so would be counter-productive until enough existing tasks are resolved.)

It is more important to fix bugs than make lists about fixing bugs imo . . .

Fixing bugs is important, and having a list of low-hanging fruit enables a greater number of people to potentially do so.

Particularly if there's a lot of easy-but-time-consuming tasks; give those to someone with plenty of time but less experience, whilst the more experienced people focus on the harder tasks, and more gets done overall.

There is no "frequent updates" or "by the time published"; the lists get dynamically generated by the bug tracker, all it (should) take is appropriate tagging, direct links to the relevant filters, and a suitable explanation of desired processes.

Here's Debian's page - it's not a good example to copy, because it's badly done - but hopefully it makes clearer what I'm saying.


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#25 2023-11-29 19:03:49

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,109  

Re: The insanity continues... BSOD coming to a systemd near you?

@boughtonp . . . My question was rhetorical. I already knew what the answer would be.  wink

Sorry, I just don't see the point of duplicating information that is already available at:

bugs.devuan.org
devuan-dev mail list
DNG mail list
IRC channels
dev1galaxy forum

Anyone seriously interested in engaging with Devuan should monitor those sources. It is that simple.

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