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#1 2024-03-04 00:42:23

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

[SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

My Devuan Beowulf (backported kernel) is now long in the tooth and I am rather undecided with respect to moving on to Chimaera.

The main reasons being that everything is working quite well and that the hardware in my box has not changed since I first installed Devuan ca. 2017.

It is a ca. 2007 Sun Ultra 24 workstation, nicely loaded with everything I need, including my trusty Umax S-6E SCSI scanner running on an Adaptec 2940UW PCI controller card which at one time also served a pair of 4.0Gb DAT drives.

Save issues with one of my monitors or HDDs, I do not expect any hardware changes in the next four or five years.

Making sense?
Or is my atavistic aversion to change getting the best of me?

There is also the issue of all the work I have put into configuring everything, the sole prospect of having to do it again trumps any idea of a clean install so, if I were to decide to go ahead with the move to Chimaera, it would have to be a dist-upgrade.

If I were to go ahead, I will need to make a foolproof image of my system drive, a Kingston 120Gb SSD.
In another life, Norton Ghost saved me a lot of work while doing MS/PC maintenance at a ministry full of users who knew a lot about computing.

Is disks ie: gnome-disk-utility 3.30.2 up to the task?

Thanks in advance.

Best,

A.

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#2 2024-03-04 08:47:53

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 544  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

There is no need to break a working system.
You also need one partition "/" on which to install Daedalus 5.0. And for working with disks, a live gparted image is better.

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#3 2024-03-04 08:55:03

Andre4freedom
Member
Registered: 2017-11-15
Posts: 147  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Where can I post a file with information about developed, tested and tried backup-restore methods for partitions and also for complete disks?
Just a hint: all you need is a bootable linux  rescue- or live- CD/DVD/image. You would end up with an accurate disk-image an an external disk or tape
It's 3 pages of text information, a pdf file. BTW: it worked for Linux, Windows, DOS and you-know-what OSs.

Gnome-dosk-utility might work, but I never tested it thoroughly.

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#4 2024-03-04 09:31:49

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,082  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

If you can afford it install a new SSD in the workstation. I assume its a legacy installation, so switching drives should be painless.

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#5 2024-03-04 09:44:23

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

aluma wrote:

... no need to break a working system.

Indeed ...
That is exactly what I am trying to avoid, as well as a clean install.

aluma wrote:

... one partition "/" on which to install Daedalus 5.0.

As I noted above, I run Beowulf with a backported kernel.

~$ uname -a
Linux devuan 5.10.0-0.deb10.16-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.127-2~bpo10+1 (2022-07-28) x86_64 GNU/Linux
~$ 

I understand that I should not skip Chimaera before upgrading to Daedalus. 

aluma wrote:

... a live gparted image is better.

Right.
Note taken.

Thanks for your input.

Best,

A.

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#6 2024-03-04 09:53:48

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

Andre4freedom wrote:

... post a file with information ...

Check with golinux.
A sticky would be a good idea provided it passes review.  8^D

Andre4freedom wrote:

Gnome-dosk-utility might work ...

In this case, might is a scary term. (even more so than dosk) 8^°

I need to go through the dist-upgrade routine and be certain I can go back without any hassle if something gets screwed up in the process.

Thanks for your input.

Best,

A.

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#7 2024-03-04 10:13:48

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 544  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

I need to go through the dist-upgrade

For what?
Create a  another root partition, install clean Daedalus, play around and then you will understand what is bothering you.
Perhaps with new solutions, old recipes will be unnecessary.

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#8 2024-03-04 10:26:46

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

rolfie wrote:

... assume its a legacy installation ...

Aye, it is.
None of that UEFI stuff in my box or in my netbook.

rolfie wrote:

... switching drives should be painless.

I am afraid that I may not have explained myself properly.

The system SDD is just fine, no problems with that.
My issues are with the move from Beowulf to Chimaera and then (eventually) Daedalus.

@aluma
@Andre4freedom
@rolfie

Independent of the method used to make a back-up image of my system drive and for the reasons stated in my OP, the question remains:

Seeing that my hardware has not changed significantly since I first installed Devuan Jesse ca. 2017 and will most probably not change in the coming years, is a dist-upgrade necessary?

All I see around me these days is bloat, bloat and more bloat.
To what benefit?

Thanks in advance.

Best,

A.

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#9 2024-03-04 10:54:24

rolfie
Member
Registered: 2017-11-25
Posts: 1,082  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Seeing that my hardware has not changed significantly since I first installed Devuan Jesse ca. 2017 and will most probably not change in the coming years, is a dist-upgrade necessary?

Some ideas: You determine your necessities. As long as you are happy with the OS and the software you are running, you may keep Beowulf.

The open question is: no more upgrades/safety fixes for Beowulf. Can you live with that? I have seen your posts about xorg security issues. They are getting fixed with Daedalus.

Risk with latest releases: removal of support for older hardware. Is a matter of test.

What bloat is concerned: yes its possible that things like CSD are trickling down. But they still can be removed. And an installation with --no-install-recommends may also help to keep the system clean from unwanted software.

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#10 2024-03-04 10:56:47

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 544  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

No one will decide this for you.
And the only way is to try it yourself. The rest is empty talk. smile

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#11 2024-03-04 11:35:42

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn
Member
Registered: 2023-11-27
Posts: 77  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

re OP and re HARDWARE... nice!

you might enjoy this commentary:
ttps://sdf.org/?faq?BASICS?02

re backup/clone/copy/etc tool(s), we happily pay for and use:
ttps://partedmagic.com/

(have used and trusted PartedMagic throughout it's existence, in the early days it was no-charge but now it is well-worth the small fee!)

re kingston ssd

we're also using 120gb-ssd from various name-brands and have only had one expire/drop-dead so far(knocking_on_wood) over 7 years.
(still operating under the consideration that at any moment it/they will go dark forever...always a little unsettling whenever it does happen)

running Beowulf and Chimaera machines presently but with the direction of linux/systemd/wayland/redhat/microsoft/etc will need to move to something else eventually(another learning curve...sigh)


Be Excellent to each other and Party On!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rph_1DODXDU
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Ted%27s_Excellent_Adventure
Do unto others as you would have them do instantaneously back to you

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#12 2024-03-04 12:37:43

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

rolfie wrote:

You determine ...
... happy with the OS and the software ...
... keep Beowulf.

That is more or less what I think.

rolfie wrote:

... no more upgrades/safety fixes ...
Can you live with that?

Really cannot say.

rolfie wrote:

... seen your posts about xorg security issues.

I posted them as informative for the forum.
And my Beowulf system received them within 24 hours.
That said, I never noticed any issues with xorg.

rolfie wrote:

... removal of support for older hardware.

Quite so.
A few years ago I eventually had to upgrade all my hardware because there were no Linux drivers for my discontinued but prefectly working (and very expensive) Matrox G450 cards.

rolfie wrote:

... installation with --no-install-recommends ...

Yes, I have apt set up to do just that.

Thanks for your input.

Best,

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2024-03-04 12:38:26)

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#13 2024-03-04 12:58:34

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

aluma wrote:

... play around and then you will understand ...

I am afraid that I may not have explained myself properly, again.

The only thing bothering me is the idea that, given the reasons I tried to explain in my OP, an upgrade from Beowulf (with a backported kernel) to Chimaera and eventually Daedalus may not be worth the trouble and may even be counterproductive.

aluma wrote:

No one will decide this for you.

Goes without saying. 8^°

aluma wrote:

... rest is empty talk.

I beg to differ, strongly.
As always, YMMV.

I am not looking for a decision to be made for me.
What I am looking for are opinions/insight to be able to make a better and more informed decision.

I learned a (very) long time ago that new, latest, shiny and full of bling do not necessarily make for a better product.
The IT world (OSs, software and hardware) is up to the brim with examples.

Thanks for your input.

Best,

A.

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#14 2024-03-04 13:05:53

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

sg1 wrote:

re OP and re HARDWARE... nice!
... might enjoy this ...

Thank you.
Will have a look.

sgi wrote:

... under the consideration that at any moment ...

I have no problems with the SSD.
fstrim, BackInTime and Timeshift are always there to watch my back.

Thanks for your input.

Best,

A.

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#15 2024-03-04 13:20:54

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 544  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

@Altoid
Please don't take my words as a reproach or anything like that.
Of course, each of us has our own preferences and selection criteria.

Once upon a time I “sat through” on opensuse 12.xx almost two years after its support ended. Nothing bad happened; replacing it turned out to be practically a new installation.

Another thing I encountered was that I had to delete the /home/.trinity folder (these are the settings of my DE), because over the long period of its existence a lot of garbage had accumulated there, interfering with normal work.

But in the end, we can only say for sure that at some point we will have to change the OS.

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#16 2024-03-04 13:59:05

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

aluma wrote:

... don't take my words as a reproach ...

Of course, you have not given me any reason to do so.

aluma wrote:

... “sat through” on opensuse 12.xx almost two years ...

I can relate to that.
The coffee roasting software I use runs in my 32bit Asus 1000HE under Devuan Chimaera.
It is the last 32bit version (1.1 / ca. 2017) made available by the author works perfectly well with all the hardware involved.
All versions after that (v2.10) slowly acquired a huge amount of professional roasting machine bloat.

That same machine has an XPSP3 partiiton I use once in a blue moon.
It came in very handy when I needed to flash the last available OS on a Samsung G530M now unsupported by the local telco.
For whatever reason my local XP VM would not run the MS based software I needed to get the job done without screwing up half way through the process.

... replacing it turned out to be practically a new installation.

Yes, I can relate to that too.

... at some point we will have to change the OS.

Indeed ...
I foresee having bad dreams about that.
There's not really much to choose from if Devuan should fail.
A Devuan based Linux from Scratch may very well be waiting for us in our collective future.

Thanks a lot for your input.

Best,

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2024-03-04 13:59:51)

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#17 2024-03-04 16:00:21

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,164  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Andre4freedom . . .

You can create an account at our git.devuan.org and post your document there then link to it as appropriate . . .

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#18 2024-03-04 16:36:44

Andre4freedom
Member
Registered: 2017-11-15
Posts: 147  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Thanks. Will try it.

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#19 2024-03-05 19:35:17

pcalvert
Member
Registered: 2017-05-15
Posts: 197  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Altoid wrote:

If I were to go ahead, I will need to make a foolproof image of my system drive, a Kingston 120Gb SSD.

Although there are a number of ways to accomplish this, I prefer to use Clonezilla. To use Clonezilla, you would need to boot to a live CD/DVD/USB system that (preferably) comes with Clonezilla. Refracta is a good choice for this. For good measure, you could also make a second backup using FSArchiver.

It would also be prudent to make separate additional backups of /etc and /home using an archiver utility like tar.

Altoid wrote:

Is disks ie: gnome-disk-utility 3.30.2 up to the task?

No.


Freespoke is a new search engine that respects user privacy and does not engage in censorship.
Another one is called Luxxle.

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#20 2024-03-06 07:16:23

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 347  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

To use Clonezilla, you would need to boot to a live CD/DVD/USB system that (preferably) comes with Clonezilla.

Or just use clonezilla live, which is lightweight, Debian-based (though that also means systemd, unfortunately), and allows for things like easy creation of bare-metal recovery media.

On the OP... The only way to be sure is to send it. Personally I have machines that have been dist-upgraded all the way from Lenny, and while there are always things to attend to they are usually pretty minor and far less trouble than a fresh install - especially if you avoid leaving it until you are multiple releases behind stable.

Either way, if you don't like the result you just restore your backup (or swap drives if you go for a live clone). No harm, no foul.


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#21 2024-03-07 09:45:23

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

... prefer to use Clonezilla.
Refracta is a good choice for this.
... also make a second backup using FSArchiver.

Right.

pcalvert wrote:

... separate additional backups of /etc and /home ...

Yes, BackInTime takes care of my /home directory and Timeshift takes care of /etc so that is covered.

re: gnome-disk-utility
I had my doubts which is why I asked.
Seeing that no one among 400+ visits answered with a clearly pronounced yes I won't be using it.

Thanks for your input.

Best,

A.

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#22 2024-03-07 14:14:15

GlennW
Member
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2019-07-18
Posts: 596  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

What's wrong with rsync -avh source destination (?)

wicd is not available with chimeara, but it is with beowulf (and ascii).

I think the other main change (for me) was su is changed to su -

Chimeara has Songwrite... and sysinit orphan startup scripts...

my 2 cents worth.

regards Glenn


pic from 1993, new guitar day.

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#23 2024-03-07 15:59:17

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,459  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Hello:

pcalvert wrote:

... only way to be sure is to send it.

Always done that.
I started with Devuan Jesse in this box and from then on up to Beowulf (now with a backported kernel) was like that.
I opted out of Chimaera because of WiCD and SLiM, this last one having been revived.

But the 'Debian Way' ® is not what it was, between the bloat, the infamous usr/merge and who knows what else is lurking around there, I am rather wary.
Who knows what sending it may bring about.

I will probably clone my system 120Gb SSD drive to an empty 300Gb SAS I have in the slots.
Boot from there and see what happens when I send it and reboot.
Cannot wait to see my dmesg printout. 8^D

That said, I have noticed that what I see as the most important part of my screed has not gathered the much attention.
ie:

altoid wrote:

Seeing that my hardware has not changed significantly since I first installed Devuan Jesse ca. 2017 and will most probably not change in the coming years, is a dist-upgrade necessary? This is not a file-server exposed to the web.

Thanks a lot for your input.

Best,

A.

Last edited by Altoid (2024-03-07 16:03:49)

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#24 2024-03-07 16:19:28

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,164  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

I stayed on Jessie for a looong time. Then websites stopped working properly both the layouts as well as interactive functions. That is what forced a move to fresh Chimaera install and it was a royal pain. Adapting FF and other browser profiles took days even weeks as did adapting to the new interfaces and options.

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#25 2024-03-07 17:19:12

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 544  

Re: [SOLVED] Beowulf to Chimaera - precautions

Adapting FF and other browser profiles took days even weeks as did adapting to the new interfaces and options.

I once had the same problem.

Right now I'm just copying the .mozilla folder. Everything is OK with access rights, if on another computer, then via a USB flash drive with fat32, and if in the shared /home directory between users, then they can view each other’s directories.

Then sometimes you need to select a profile if FF has chosen a new one, and sometimes it loads the required one itself, I delete unnecessary profiles.

The same procedure applies to Thunderbird.

Last edited by aluma (2024-03-07 17:20:29)

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