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#1 2023-11-08 10:18:29

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,503  

Debian Farm?

Hello:

Came up on this thread, referenced to in DNG this morning.

Interesting, but what will it lead to?

someone at bugs.debian.org wrote:

... propose to remove SysVinit completely from the next Debian
release, with appropriate checking routines at upgrade time, so upgraded
machines won't run into a "don't boot anymore" condition. This will make a
clear statement for everybody instead of the current ambiguity where individual
packages arbitrarily support SysVinit or not, at the mercy of their
maintainers.

Best,

A.

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#2 2023-11-08 10:29:00

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 420  

Re: Debian Farm?

They tried that before, & lost a lot of their programmers, & users, & created a lot of bad blood!

Haven't they learned their lesson yet! - Linux is about freedom of choice!

Thankfully, it caused Devuan to be born in the first instance, if they do it again, many users will (possibly) ditch Devuan as well, if it isn't an easy job to continue using Debian as a base!

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#3 2023-11-08 12:48:56

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 640  

Re: Debian Farm?

Quote from Debian Bug report logs - #1055463
"... Debian has been Canonical's changing room since then..."
Is this our future?
https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/08/ … p_details/

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#4 2023-11-13 23:11:04

UnixMan1230
Member
Registered: 2023-10-21
Posts: 41  

Re: Debian Farm?

At some point or another, when Ubuntu becomes snap-only (they are releasing such a version for desktop for 24.04), its going to have a detrimental impact on Debian. Worse still, it may come to a point where Debian may have to be forked more completely, and not just a handful of packages like it is right now. That's gonna be a nightmare...


"Less is only more when it's what you're looking for" -Unknown

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#5 2023-12-14 20:35:18

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 310  

Re: Debian Farm?

Ouch. Core Desktop sounds like my worst nightmare from the depths of hell: an immutable system handed down from the PTB that you cannot customize, shoved down your throat whether you like it or not. They get to decide what runs on your PC, you have no control over what runs on your system and what doesn't.  Sheesh.  Might as well go back to Windows, folks.  I ditched Windows in the 90's and went to Linux precisely for this reason: in Windows-land, everything is dictated by MS and shoved down your throat, whether you like it or not. If you don't like it, you're left out in the cold.  (Once, I dared to try to customize mouse focus behaviour on Windows.  Let's just say it was an experience I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies. In Windows, you either do things the MS way, or you'll burn in hell for daring to do things differently.)  I remember my first Linux install: it was back in the 90's before automated installers, I had to install everything manually. But man it felt good: I was in control!  I get to decide what runs on my system and what doesn't.  If I don't like something, I can uninstall it and/or replace it with something else. It was revolutionary.

And now these people want to move back to the Windows way of doing things.  No thanks.  Not in a million years!  Recently I had the misfortune of having to deal with a "standardized" Ubuntu PC, dictated by employer policy. It came with Snap, and I tell ya, that was a total disaster.  There were more problems with it than I can enumerate. Eventually I said, enough of this crap, I'm not being paid to spend hours on this nonsense, I have work to do! Just installed the pure Debian package instead of the snap crap, and I was in business again in 5 minutes.  I am NOT looking forward to the day they shove Snap down my throat...  If this continues, I'll have to run Devuan inside a virtual machine just to get any work done at all.  Very disappointed with the direction Ubuntu is moving in.

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#6 2023-12-22 05:17:33

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn
Member
Registered: 2023-11-27
Posts: 97  

Re: Debian Farm?

the madness never ends...

https://nosystemd.org/

20231222-0726am-cst-usa-modified: added link

Last edited by stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn (2023-12-22 13:26:33)


Be Excellent to each other and Party On!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rph_1DODXDU
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Ted%27s_Excellent_Adventure
Do unto others as you would have them do instantaneously back to you

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#7 2023-12-22 14:58:53

boughtonp
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2023-01-19
Posts: 212  
Website

Re: Debian Farm?

???

The changelog for nosystemd.org is at //github.com/muellermartin/nosystemd.org/commits

There do not appear to be any links added today...


3.1415P265E589T932E846R64338

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#8 2023-12-22 16:09:00

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn
Member
Registered: 2023-11-27
Posts: 97  

Re: Debian Farm?

boughtonp wrote:

???

The changelog for nosystemd.org is at //github.com/muellermartin/nosystemd.org/commits

There do not appear to be any links added today...

it was a modification to my earlier post(added the referenced link instead of creating another post, sorry if that was confusing)


Be Excellent to each other and Party On!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rph_1DODXDU
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Ted%27s_Excellent_Adventure
Do unto others as you would have them do instantaneously back to you

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#9 2023-12-29 21:59:28

Tatwi
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2018-10-24
Posts: 72  
Website

Re: Debian Farm?

The first time I used Linux was Slackware, after I heard about in college in 1998. This was also the same time I got my first PC, having only puttered on a Commodore 64 at home and the PCs at school. I didn't have a problem with Microsoft, Windows, or DOS, I liked them well enough and had been using them since the late 80s, but something about the freedom to be found with Linux was inspiring to me in a unique way. Sadly, I had neither the skills nor the focus to forge a path through the FOSS landscape, so until more things "just worked" (due to the amazing efforts of folks far smarter than me), Linux was mostly just a thing a I installed, configured, and never actually used for much; Windows was always easier to actually use.

For a lot of tasks, Windows still is a lot easier to use. No surprise there really, software designed for Windows works well Windows. Wow, what magic is this! smile No harm in that. I actually liked Windows 98/2000/XP/7 and I still think that Vista Home Basic was the pinnacle of Windows UI cohesiveness and visual appeal. It makes me sad that every version since has forced me compromise, forced me to either accept Microsoft's terms and Microsoft's way of doing things, else I just don't get to use my computer the way I like to use it.

Linux never made me feel this way, until Unity in Ubuntu. As difficult as it could be and as limited as the functionality may have been, at least it was possible to run the GNU/Linux software I wanted on my computer in the way I wanted to run it. But since the time that Unity was thrust upon us, the options available to me to use Linux the way I would like (basically Ubuntu 2006, where it Debian that "just worked") has diminished considerably.

It really does feel like we can have all the Linux software freedom we want, so long as it is the Linux software freedom that RedHat et al. like and support.

"Well you're free to make your own distro if you don't like what others are doing", some truly ignorant trolls would say and while they're technically correct, actually doing this is not within the realm of possibility even for people like me who are modestly well versed in "Linux" and have been using it ~25 years. Making one's own distro for daily use isn't feasible. Heck, even trying to wrangle a sensible base system like Devuan into the setup that I want to use takes a few days of configuration and tinkering. Telling people to "roll their own" is disingenuous, perhaps even malicious - failure puts the user right back in the situation of having to use their computer in a way they don't want, simply because other people like using their own computers in that way.

Anyway, in an ideal world I'd be able to use all the software and hardware that I want in the ways I would like; I care about my freedom to privately do as I please and not really about what operating system I am using.

I sincerely appreciate the Devuan team for allowing me to continue to "Debian" like it's 2010, because it's the most comfortable and productive way I have found to use Linux since the enshitification of Ubuntu/Mint.

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#10 2023-12-29 23:37:00

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 367  

Re: Debian Farm?

Pretty much every bit of the highly visible "progress" WRT "desktop" GNU/Linux (and OSS/FOSS in general) these days is to please:
a: RedHat IBM
b: IBM's customers
c: Commercial software vendors
d: Users who care more about running commercial software than software freedom

Hence the ongoing campaign to standardise enshitify or replace core components (under weak licences of course), reduce distro fragmentation diversity, agressively break compatibility with deprecated perfectly servicable but agenda-inconvenient software and systems, simplify packaging of closed-source software spyware and other garbage, and hide the system behind inscrutable abstraction layers and "user friendly" UIs so windows refugees feel more comfortable IBM can sell more support contracts.

Last edited by steve_v (2023-12-29 23:49:29)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#11 2023-12-30 02:01:21

UnixMan1230
Member
Registered: 2023-10-21
Posts: 41  

Re: Debian Farm?

quickfur wrote:

Very disappointed with the direction Ubuntu is moving in.

My first distro was Ubuntu 18.04. I have fond memories of her, genuinely, and i owe what I know today to that first experience. But alas, it also made me understand why systemd was so terrible, and regarding Ubuntu she has gone down the shitter the last two major releases. Its a sad, sad state.


"Less is only more when it's what you're looking for" -Unknown

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#12 2023-12-30 15:24:16

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher
Member
Registered: 2023-08-24
Posts: 311  

Re: Debian Farm?

Tatwi wrote:

enshitification

steve_v wrote:

enshitify

Note to self: save this for future usage...

big_smile

Last edited by The-Amnesiac-Philosopher (2023-12-30 15:31:10)

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#13 2023-12-30 15:35:22

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher
Member
Registered: 2023-08-24
Posts: 311  

Re: Debian Farm?

Tatwi wrote:

"Well you're free to make your own distro if you don't like what others are doing", some truly ignorant trolls would say

Braaaaa...fsmithred has made it easy with his refracta tools.

Set up your system the way you like, then run refractasnapshot. YOU CAN DO IT!

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#14 2023-12-30 15:50:48

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn
Member
Registered: 2023-11-27
Posts: 97  

Re: Debian Farm?

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher wrote:
Tatwi wrote:

enshitification

steve_v wrote:

enshitify

Note to self: save this for future usage...

:D

Cory Doctorow FTW!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification


Be Excellent to each other and Party On!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rph_1DODXDU
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Ted%27s_Excellent_Adventure
Do unto others as you would have them do instantaneously back to you

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#15 2023-12-30 16:00:46

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn
Member
Registered: 2023-11-27
Posts: 97  

Re: Debian Farm?

UnixMan1230 wrote:
quickfur wrote:

Very disappointed with the direction Ubuntu is moving in.

My first distro was Ubuntu 18.04. I have fond memories of her, genuinely, and i owe what I know today to that first experience. But alas, it also made me understand why systemd was so terrible, and regarding Ubuntu she has gone down the shitter the last two major releases. Its a sad, sad state.

your post made me curious to check my old ubuntu discs and the earliest one i still have is Ubuntu 7.10 Gutsy Gibbon but i do remember having all of the earlier ones as well(will probably do a nostalgic boot-up of this disc later on today!)


Be Excellent to each other and Party On!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rph_1DODXDU
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Ted%27s_Excellent_Adventure
Do unto others as you would have them do instantaneously back to you

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#16 2023-12-30 20:32:24

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher
Member
Registered: 2023-08-24
Posts: 311  

Re: Debian Farm?

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn wrote:

Cory Doctorow FTW!

tealc-stargate.gif

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#17 2023-12-30 21:05:43

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,233  

Re: Debian Farm?

/me notes how annoying it is to have to keep blocking gifs

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#18 2023-12-30 21:30:16

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher
Member
Registered: 2023-08-24
Posts: 311  

Re: Debian Farm?

Sorry...but it's funny.

Note to self: no more gifs.

EDIT: SG-1 fans will get it. big_smile

Once every year, I watch the entire Stargate SG-1 series from start to finish...'cause that's the way I roll baby! tongue

Last edited by The-Amnesiac-Philosopher (2023-12-30 21:42:47)

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#19 2024-01-01 07:12:34

Tatwi
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2018-10-24
Posts: 72  
Website

Re: Debian Farm?

The-Amnesiac-Philosopher wrote:
Tatwi wrote:

"Well you're free to make your own distro if you don't like what others are doing", some truly ignorant trolls would say

Braaaaa...fsmithred has made it easy with his refracta tools.

Set up your system the way you like, then run refractasnapshot. YOU CAN DO IT!

Refracta is just a tool for creating one's own configuration of the Debian distribution. Using Refracta is not the same thing as designing, building, and maintaining Debian/Slackware/Void/PCLinuxOS/etc from scratch.

In the context of this discussion, this distinction is paramount; Should Debian reach a point where it's infeasible or impossible to use as a base system, tools like Refracta will cease to function.

Last edited by Tatwi (2024-01-02 22:29:26)

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#20 2024-01-01 07:45:32

swanson
Member
Registered: 2020-04-22
Posts: 98  

Re: Debian Farm?

I've been using Linux since 1997 and the last 10-12 years Linux only. No MS, no dual boot. When Ubuntu went to Unity I used Xfce instead. My last Ubuntu was 18.04 and I really got mad at systemd when it took over DNS-resolving too. It really slowed down DNS look ups and hence surfing. My five machines now run Devuan all, and I'm happy. I do not meet any restrictions in my daily usage in my DAW or when gaming or whatever.

So I really really hope Devuan can live on and stand as an example of free thinking and individuality.

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#21 2024-01-02 11:15:25

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn
Member
Registered: 2023-11-27
Posts: 97  

Re: Debian Farm?

this commentary was interesting:

ttps://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/


Be Excellent to each other and Party On!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rph_1DODXDU
ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Ted%27s_Excellent_Adventure
Do unto others as you would have them do instantaneously back to you

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#22 2024-01-02 12:29:53

swanson
Member
Registered: 2020-04-22
Posts: 98  

Re: Debian Farm?

Good article!!! Must read!

(one letter missing in the link above. correct link here: https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/ … post_open/ )

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#23 2024-01-02 16:41:08

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 310  

Re: Debian Farm?

swanson wrote:

I've been using Linux since 1997 and the last 10-12 years Linux only. No MS, no dual boot.

Awesome, me too!  I actually left the MS world behind in the early days of Windows '97. Back when protected mode was still a thing people talked about, and the option of switching to DOS mode stlll existed (i.e., not just Command Prompt, but the actual, real DOS mode in non-protected mode).  I hated Windows 3.1, and '95 and '97 did not impress me either -- I always felt they did not deliver on their promise: protected mode was supposed to solve the problem of programs stepping over each other that often happened in the DOS world; in exchange for restricted access to system resources, you were supposed to reap the benefit of having a true multitasking system. But the implementation was disappointing, to say the least.  There were all sorts of bugs and loopholes and performance problems, plus your typical MS shove-it-down-your-throat junk that left a bad taste in my mouth.

Upon a friend's recommendation, I started looking into Linux, and chose Debian as the most flexible option that let me configure my system the way I wanted.  This was back in the days before debian-installer and apt-get; I had to download a CD image of the base system and then individually download .deb packages (figuring out the dependencies myself based on information from debian.org) and install them by hand with dpkg.  Initially I had dual boot, but it wasn't long before I ditched dual boot completely and left the Windows world forever.  I've never looked back since.

When Ubuntu went to Unity I used Xfce instead. My last Ubuntu was 18.04 and I really got mad at systemd when it took over DNS-resolving too. It really slowed down DNS look ups and hence surfing. My five machines now run Devuan all, and I'm happy. I do not meet any restrictions in my daily usage in my DAW or when gaming or whatever.

I've never bought into the "desktop metaphor". IMNSHO it's a poor way of looking at computing. One unique characteristic of humanity is language -- not just isolated words but grammar and structure that conveys complex, abstract thought beyond just "me hungry, me wanna eat, me angry, me beat you up". To express computation, language is the ideal vehicle. Thus, the best way to communicate with the computer is via language -- with grammar, syntax, and intent, like what you get at the shell prompt.  The "desktop metaphor" pushed by MS reduces human-computer interaction back into the stone age of point-and-grunt, "me hungry, me want browser, me move this here, me push this there". It reduces the powerful abstractions of language back to the inferior metaphor of moving physical objects around.  (Plus, most people's desks tend to get messy over time from the clutter of junk piling up on it -- is that the way you want to be using your machine? Messy, inaccurate, accumulates junk over time -- like Windows tends to do. Now you know why.)

My first contact with the Posix world was in university where we had a SunOS server serving X terminals running twm; my early Debian installs all used twm, later ctwm.  It was one step above MS's "desktop metaphor", but still not ideal.  Eventually, after many years, I gradually moved away from overlapping windows to tiled window managers, and eventually adopted Ratpoison: a mouseless WM completely driven by keyboard.  My productivity shot up by an order of magnitude -- all those hand movements between mouse and keyboard slowed me down in so many ways that I never realized; now that the rodent is finally banished to a secondary role and everything was keyboard-driven, my interaction with the computer is more expressive and much more efficient. No more point-and-grunt, I communicate with the machine with real language -- be it shell, vim (the modal interaction is actually a grammar in disguise), or a full-blown programming language.  These days I only keep the rodent around to interact with primitive UIs like the browser that's still stuck in the stone age of point-and-grunt.

So I really really hope Devuan can live on and stand as an example of free thinking and individuality.

As long as there remains enough people who can think above the level of point-and-grunt, I think we're safe, somebody will always come up with something focused on handing power to the user rather than whoever is trying to assume control over your device.

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#24 2024-01-02 17:08:36

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 310  

Re: Debian Farm?

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn wrote:

this commentary was interesting:

ttps://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/

My take on this has always been that it's an issue of empowerment: do you empower the user, or do you empower someone else (usually, yourself, or whoever you're writing the code for)?  That's the root of the issue. Computers were invented as tools to help human beings perform complex tasks (computation). They were always meant to be subservient to the user. The user decides what needs to be solved or performed, and the user initiates the computation. The machine empowers the user by offering its capabilities to be at the user's disposal.

Nowadays, however, with the likes of MS and systemd-style software, it's no longer about empowering the user; it's all about how the author / company / whoever else gets to dictate how you should use the device that you purchased -- or worse yet, in recent years you don't even own anything anymore, your device is no longer a tool for your own empowerment; it's merely a service rented to you for payment. The renter gets to decide how, when and what you do with your device -- it's no longer the user who is empowered, but the renter. The author or the company that he works for.

Open source has always been about user empowerment: what got Richard Stallman started with open source is the desire for user empowerment: if the user has the expertise to fix the printer driver or write his own printer driver, why should he be artificially restrained from doing so?  The printer is a tool meant to empower the user; it should not become a vehicle for the manufacturer to squeeze more pennies out of the user's pocket. The user already paid for the printer; he should be able to do what he wants with it.

The development with RH and Ubuntu and sadly, Debian, over the past decade or so has been the gradual shift away from the empowerment of the user back to the empowerment of the organization. Away from the philosophy of the user being able to make changes to the system as he wishes back to the MS paradigm of the user being too dumb to do anything except what we enlightened developers have decided beforehand is simple enough for the user's dumb brain to comprehend.  The user doesn't know how to configure the system and shouldn't be expected to do so, we know better, we make the hard decisions for them and they're just consumers waiting to be spoonfed.

IOW, the empowerment of the upstream rather than the empowerment of the user.

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#25 2024-01-02 23:37:39

Tatwi
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2018-10-24
Posts: 72  
Website

Re: Debian Farm?

quickfur wrote:

Nowadays, however, with the likes of MS and systemd-style software, it's no longer about empowering the user; it's all about how the author / company / whoever else gets to dictate how you should use the device that you purchased

Exactly. I paid for the hardware (and software in some important cases). I pay for the electricity. It's my computer in the same way that my toothbrush is a tool that intimately belongs me and me alone.

quickfur wrote:

or worse yet, in recent years you don't even own anything anymore, your device is no longer a tool for your own empowerment; it's merely a service rented to you for payment. The renter gets to decide how, when and what you do with your device -- it's no longer the user who is empowered, but the renter. The author or the company that he works for.

Rent-seeking in a nutshell.

quickfur wrote:

...back to the MS paradigm of the user being too dumb to do anything except what we enlightened developers have decided beforehand is simple enough for the user's dumb brain to comprehend.  The user doesn't know how to configure the system and shouldn't be expected to do so, we know better, we make the hard decisions for them and they're just consumers waiting to be spoonfed.

It really is simply hubris, rather than an indictment on the lack of intelligence of the end user. Microsoft, Apple, Google, and RedHat honestly believe that the way they do things is "the right way" and that they're simply making it available for everyone's convenience.

quickfur wrote:

Open source has always been about user empowerment: what got Richard Stallman started with open source is the desire for user empowerment: if the user has the expertise to fix the printer driver or write his own printer driver, why should he be artificially restrained from doing so?  The printer is a tool meant to empower the user; it should not become a vehicle for the manufacturer to squeeze more pennies out of the user's pocket. The user already paid for the printer; he should be able to do what he wants with it.

The social contract which led to the prosperity and intellectual freedom of Stallman's generation is over, replaced by a rent-seeking bourgeoisie who has an unprecedented concentration of wealth and thus influence. A rising tide may lift all boats, but these people only care that the water is deep enough to keep their yachts afloat and the plebeians struggling to tread water - waters never quite rough enough for the suffering masses to die off, just inhospitable enough to ensure the bourgeoisie have an ample supply of desperate labor. The dream has died, again. This is what genuinely hurts; Like Stallman, I truly believe in the goodness of Man.

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