So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

greenjeans · 2023-11-07 17:23:37

Just doing my research before I start building myself a new system, I barely got by without GTK3 last time and knew it would be inevitable one day, that's why I used my old system for so long. Pure ALSA, GTK2 so light and fast and easy to mod, low system resource usage, so awesome on old hardware.

So looks like GTK3 is now a must and apparently Wayland is too even though I have compositing turned off? Looks like most of my chosen programs require both....the little pop-up mini-views of items in the window list are especially useless, browser too, just junk eating up CPU and RAM.

I has a sad now.

aluma · 2023-11-07 18:31:47

For example, vlc requires libgtk-3.so.0.

P.S.
Of course it's up to you, your computer...
But, if you make a minimal set of programs, then why do you need Conky?
The computer itself works great without our constant control, but it’s not a steam engine.

Regards.

Last edited by aluma (2023-11-07 18:37:09)

fsmithred · 2023-11-07 20:10:43

Where are you seeing wayland coming in? I just tried a simulated upgrade in a ceres VM that's a couple months behind, and it's not showing up. I also tried a simulated install of mate and it doesn't show up there, either. There are a few libwayland-somethings installed, but I assume they do nothing since I'm running xorg.

For GTK-3, I'm not worrying about it. I'm experimenting with lxqt in anticipation of GTK-4 and -5. (shudder)

brocashelm · 2023-11-07 20:17:42

Wake me up when Wayland is "ready" for production use... It's never going to overtake Xorg, no matter what the shills say.

I made a personal list of GTK2-supported programs for Chimaera and Daedalus. Sadly, some approaches might require turning your system into a FrankenDevuan, but it can be worked with.

I purposely keep GTK2 programs such as Leafpad (text editor), Pale Moon (Web browser), Pidgin (IRC), LazPaint (image editor), VeraCrypt 1.24 (file encryption), etc. installed.

I shall soon replace FileZilla (FTP client) with gFTP and Thunderbird (e-mail client) with Claws Mail (Chimaera version is still on GTK2). It might be possible to use Xfce 4.12 on Chimaera or Daedalus, but you have to be very specific with Apt pinning to prevent updating to the newer and shinier 4.16 or 4.18 builds.

LXDE is still the only GTK2 DE available on the latest stable release, so that can be utilized.

Openbox can replace Xfce's WM and replicate much of its functionality with config changes. For compositing, Picom could be used.

The GTK2 build of SpaceFM can also be installed to replace Thunar, Caja, and other file managers, but you must understand that it is a dead project with over two hundred bugs (last official commit was in early 2018, with no further signs of life from the maintainer). Moreover, it will be removed from Devuan as of Excalibur when it goes stable in two years (the latest build for Ceres only ships GTK3 now).

Your best bet is to replace what you can with GTK2 or even Qt (using Qt5ct to skin its programs to look more GTK2-esque).

Otherwise, just go back to any of the first three Devuan releases (Jessie, Ascii, and/or Beowulf). The unfortunate thing is the lack of official support for the first two already, and Beowulf will be archived soon.

Finally, with all of this out of the way, it would have been great if MATE or Xfce forked GTK2 ten years ago. It's too late now. All the more reasons to hate GNOME developers for their lack of respect for the end user. They are by far one of the most incompetent disgraces to the open-source community.

Last edited by brocashelm (2023-11-07 20:51:41)

aluma · 2023-11-08 06:36:15

All this, with the exception of the familiar Mate interface, is already ready.
It's called bionicpup64-8.0 (there is also a 32 bit version).

This is right after loading

 root# free
              total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:        3326652      116372     1777872      748580     1432408     2171352
Swap:       4095996           0     4095996
root# uname -a
Linux puppypc31264 4.19.23 #1 SMP Tue Feb 19 15:07:58 GMT 2019 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
root#

Camtaf · 2023-11-08 10:36:43

Well......we still have an unadulterated command line available - perhaps we will have to just go back to using that!

steve_v · 2023-11-08 11:15:27

Camtaf wrote:

we still have an unadulterated command line available

We did, until somebody decided to remove console scrollback... A change which royally pisses me off, because I use the console TTYs on a daily basis, and now I have to add screen or tmux to the mix just to get a usable interface.

On top of that nonsense, the systemd crowd is currently pushing to have no console TTYs at all by default, because "the gui should be the primary interface"
Thankfully the latter madness has not (yet) infected the few remaining "old school" distros that actually offer meaningful choice beyond "systemd + GNOME + wayland + pipewire, or GTFO".

On the abomination that is GTK3 (and CSDs), this patchset goes a fair way to making it at least somewhat usable and removing the worst of the mobile-UI junk.
It's still bad mind, but if the choice is between sticking to unmaintained GTK2 stuff or eviscerating GTK3 with mushrooms and an ever-growing list of my own "revert $idiotic_change" patches, I guess I'll take the latter. Grudgingly.

Last edited by steve_v (2023-11-08 11:28:36)

greenjeans · 2023-11-08 16:33:15

Thanks for all the replies!

I'll definitely be building an Openbox system, pcmanfm, tint2, etc. Hella lotta work to tie everything together and be useable, but the end product is super nice to work with at least for me.

Sadly some of the programs I use now want the stuff....gonna really miss the ease of simple text config files for the user interface.

czeekaj · 2023-11-11 00:56:39

fsmithred wrote:

For GTK-3, I'm not worrying about it. I'm experimenting with lxqt in anticipation of GTK-4 and -5. (shudder)

I still using a Frankenstein openbox with xfce packages to get gtk-3.0 working with openbox. I hope openbox keeps being as light as ever. But it might need some updates. For composting I use xcompmgr.
Panel you can use tint2 or xfce4 panel prior to some update that broke the applications menu for me. I have to use an older version of the xfce panel. But that is fine. They somehow made it worse on the newer updates.

Last edited by czeekaj (2023-11-11 00:58:22)

alexkemp · 2023-11-11 17:09:59

czeekaj wrote:

For composting I use xcompmgr.

That's what you do after you die. I think that you mean "compositing"

DelTomix · 2023-11-11 19:26:17

For me at least - I'm happy with I3wm, no "Desktop Environment", no "session management", I just log in on console and type 'startx' - its at least as simple. I can set a comfortable color scheme easily, the apps behave how I need, and they basically look the same as in any other environment.

Food for thought maybe;
I get that login managers are "pretty" but does the appearance really serve any purpose? How much time do you spend interacting with your login screen and what has it done for you lately ?

For my case - they carry all this baggage that really has nothing to do with the apps you actually USE, - and along with that baggage comes wondering how your system got roped into installing wayland, or gtk3, or even having no idea what is running in the first place.

VLC has too many dependencies? Dump it ! MPV is great ! (at least for me I understand maybe not same for everyone)

I think we all have this natrual tendency to conflate what is actually (non-functional) "eye candy" with being "easier" or "better".

Another consideration, for some apps where available - using a portable statically built AppImage in your home directory can sometimes spare you from a myriad of undesireable dependencies.

Anyway - there are minimally dependent standalone alternatives to just about everything as some pointed out already in this thread. Its not perfect, and dependencies still happen - but I think part of how we retain freedom of choice is by finding, sharing, adapting and making use of those.

Freedom and sensible minimalism converge yet again!

Micronaut · 2023-11-22 18:07:39

This thread has me thinking I need to learn how to do this 'windowing environment only' without a desktop style of computer use.

mrnhmath · 2023-11-22 18:31:33

Of course there is, it's open source after all. Just like Devuan works around systemd, with enough effort we can deal with GTK 3 and Wayland.

Here's my hacked-up fork of MATE. It's based on an old version that doesn't depend as much on "modern" XDG libraries and retains the light, familiar form and function of GNOME 2. If there's enough interest on something like this, I can clean it up and start a proper project.

JWM-Kit · 2023-11-22 19:14:12

It's hard to avoid GTK3. My compromise is that I use GTK3, but in order to trim the system I cut out other graphical tool kits like GTK2, and QT.

Even for programing my own software I use the GTK3. I did not want to use GTK2 and then have distros pull support for GTK2

DelTomix wrote:

I get that login managers are "pretty" but does the appearance really serve any purpose? How much time do you spend interacting with your login screen and what has it done for you lately ?

As far as display managers. I agree that it's something you can do without, and is mostly just polish. With that said you can't ignore the various features that a display manager provides. For example the able to power off or restart without having to login, and don't forget auto-login. Not really killer features, but I'm sure their are those who greatly appreciate such features and use them every day. If I'm creating an Live Linux ISO to be used by others I'm going to provide a display manager.

My problem with display managers is that there just are not any good ones. They either pull in a crazy number of depends.or are so basic is not much better then just using the console. Yes slim is simple but why do I do a need the root password to shutdown the system on a system that's configured to shutdown without a password?

PedroReina · 2023-11-23 10:15:49

JWM-Kit wrote:

you can't ignore the various features that a display manager provides. For example ...

I would like to add another example, which was a must in my work: the capability to be used in a multiuser environment, like the computer lab in a high school. For this to work as I wished, I had to fiddle a bit the configuration to not show a list of users (for security) and forget last user (for convenience). Last time I did (I'm retired now), kdm checked all the boxes.

Last edited by PedroReina (2023-11-24 10:14:04)

aluma · 2023-11-23 12:34:48

@DelTomix

...How much time do you spend interacting with your login screen and what has it done for you lately ? big_smile big_smile...

Not at all, no login screen
This is my computer, I am the only user, so WM is configured for automatic passwordless login.

“Minimalism” usually results in poking at the keyboard instead of just clicking on an application icon or menu item.

alphalpha · 2023-11-25 23:19:22

sorry but this thread has less substance than my breakfast that i did not have
why is wayland bad and what is the problem with gtk3?

dont get me wrong, i would prefer if everything would work with motif and xenocara, but i understand the drama

Ron · 2023-11-25 23:51:19

alphalpha wrote:

dont get me wrong, i would prefer if everything would work with motif and xenocara, but i understand the drama

I presume you meant "I don't understand the drama"??

My answer would be because of less end-user customization allowed. (If I'm wrong on this point, someone correct me.)

steve_v · 2023-11-26 04:29:10

alphalpha wrote:

why is wayland bad

It's not that it's "bad" per-se, it's that adoption is being aggressively pushed while it's still rather buggy, lacks a number of features people are used to from X11, and only really works properly at all with GNOME sessions.
Much the same as we saw with udev, dbus and systemd, and as we're now seeing with pipewire... which are (totally coincidentally I'm sure) products of the same group of interconnected organisations.

alphalpha wrote:

what is the problem with gtk3?

What used to be the preferred flexible and DE agnostic FOSS widget toolkit is now the GNOME toolkit, where stable ABIs and non-gnome use cases are given precious little consideration (and in some cases actively discouraged, see somewhat infamous "Decide if you are a GNOME app or not" quote and obnoxious attitude given to KDE devs trying to make GTK apps fit in on plasma), and in spite of solid user demand customisation and theming options are removed to protect the "GNOME brand" and the holy HIG.
On top of that, it's big and it's slow.

greenjeans · 2023-11-26 23:33:51

The above reply by Steve_v says it all!

Found an old machine I forgot I even had, it's even older than my daily user which is 12 years old or so, this one's probably 15 or better. Lady gave it to me a long time ago, It was a Windows Vista machine, and had ground to a complete halt, and she wanted me to try and retrieve her old files and pics and such, so I did, but I also put an early version of Vuu-do (Devuan 1) with the MATE desktop to make it useable for her again, but when I brought the machine back to her she had already bought a new one but was so happy I saved here files she just gave me the old one, and it's been sitting unused for some 5 years. Seriously old and low-spec with just a gig of ram.

Pulled it out and it fired right up, using it in the garage right now playing internet radio and running sound through my shop system. And it's actually quite zippy, even the old Palemoon browser still works and is pretty fast.

And at idle it only uses about 190 mb of ram, as opposed to my current MATE system which is using around 660 and a little cumbersome even with better specs and 4 gigs of better ram. And the system is MUCH larger than that old MATE system, probably roll the whole thing into an 800 mb iso.

Lotsa factors in that equation I know, but GTK3 and Wayland and pulse and such are definitely part of it.

And though they are much smaller than 6 years ago and everything is a little better, people are still using SVG's for icons and it's still slowing down my menus.

All the little stuff matters when added all together IMHO.

But i'm excited, found all my old notes, downed the netinstall iso, and am preparing to do new Vuu-do!

swanson · 2023-11-27 07:08:15

Following...

wanna see how it turns out.

greenjeans · 2023-11-27 17:07:00

Slightly off-topic: Sure wish Devuan would include obmenu-generator in the repo, there's a .deb package for it now at suse. Would have to include the Linux::Desktop files perl module, but only other depends are already included in basic Devuan, just perl really.

You do need to add libmodule-build-perl to install the module manually.

quickfur · 2023-12-14 19:19:04

Micronaut wrote:

This thread has me thinking I need to learn how to do this 'windowing environment only' without a desktop style of computer use.

I first got into Unixes and Linux in my college years, back in the 90's. It was on the university's computer lab, running SunOS/Solaris with X servers running on thin clients connecting to the central compute server. The window manager was twm, an ancient WM that nevertheless did its job. The stuff that came later, esp. the whole "desktop metaphor" nonsense that started with MS Windows and later trickled down to Linux "desktops" like GNOME never appealed to me -- I was never one to be happy with what I was handed, I want to be in control. So I stuck with twm, and later with various more modern incarnations of it.

After a while, though, I started to think to myself, what do I really need a WM for? Most of the time, what I really do is just work on one application at a time, e.g., a text editor editing code, or browser to browse online. Why do I need to waste time fiddling with windows that partially overlap each other and mouse focus issues and all of that nonsense? Eventually this led me to use Ratpoison as my WM: a completely keyboard-driven tiling WM that has no overlapping windows (don't need 'em) and no need to take your hands off your keyboard. Also, super lightweight -- all you need is literally a bare bones X server, and ratpoison itself. No toolbars, no window deco, all your apps get maximum screen space to do their stuff. Split-second switching between windows. Split the display into two tiled panes when you need to look at more than one window at a time (I find this quite rare IME, but of course YMMV). None of the bloat that "modern" "desktop environments" bring with them. Everything is lightning fast without needless eye-candy.

Well this is probably a bit too extreme for you, but just wanted to say that it's actually possible. ;-)

steve_v · 2023-12-15 04:25:22

quickfur wrote:

Eventually this led me to use Ratpoison as my WM: a completely keyboard-driven tiling WM that has no overlapping windows (don't need 'em) and no need to take your hands off your keyboard.

Haven't used it in a while, but Ratpoison is almost certainly still awesome. Also, the post that started it all is hilarious (and kinda true IME ).

Personally I have 2 modes of operation:
Screwing around, feet up on desk. One hand for beer, one for rodent, all the overlapping windows and flashy animation nonsense is fine.
Not screwing around, both hands on keyboard and rodent well out of the way. Usually that means CLI, in an old-school tty or a console window either fullscreen or tiled 50/50 with some other (usually a manual or another console) window.

Fortunately KDE can do both, though admittedly it's not as efficient as a dedicated tiling WM at the latter. Ratpoison would be my go-to if kwin ever looses it's configurable keyboard shortcuts or if it didn't do custom tiling modes. (which at the rate KDE is stripping features for "modern" aesthetics wouldn't surprise me).

Last edited by steve_v (2023-12-15 04:28:14)

aluma · 2023-12-15 08:28:45

Screwing around, feet up on desk. One hand for beer, one for rodent, all the overlapping windows and flashy animation nonsense is fine.

Here, this is my working position.
Therefore, the mouse and DE with a maximum of GUI to configure everything.

And secondly, if cli, then you should at least try to fulfill the ergonomic requirements, position the keyboard in the desired position, angle at the elbow joint, etc.

Then it will work out with all your fingers and blindly, but the pose is practically the only one for the whole day.

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#1 2023-11-07 17:23:37

So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#2 2023-11-07 18:31:47

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#3 2023-11-07 20:10:43

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#4 2023-11-07 20:17:42

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#5 2023-11-08 06:36:15

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#6 2023-11-08 10:36:43

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#7 2023-11-08 11:15:27

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#8 2023-11-08 16:33:15

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#9 2023-11-11 00:56:39

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#10 2023-11-11 17:09:59

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#11 2023-11-11 19:26:17

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#12 2023-11-22 18:07:39

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#13 2023-11-22 18:31:33

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#14 2023-11-22 19:14:12

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#15 2023-11-23 10:15:49

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#16 2023-11-23 12:34:48

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#17 2023-11-25 23:19:22

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#18 2023-11-25 23:51:19

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#19 2023-11-26 04:29:10

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#20 2023-11-26 23:33:51

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#21 2023-11-27 07:08:15

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#22 2023-11-27 17:07:00

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#23 2023-12-14 19:19:04

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#24 2023-12-15 04:25:22

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

#25 2023-12-15 08:28:45

Re: So I guess there's no getting around having to use GTK3 and Wayland?

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