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#1 2023-08-29 17:18:44

recklessswing
Member
From: Türkiye
Registered: 2020-12-18
Posts: 88  

They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

I've read in archlinux subreddit that it has solved archlinux's many problems. That's why they adopted it. In the most upvoted answer here: https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comm … e_systemd/

So is it like better of the two devils situation here? I actually like sysvinit better, but let's not call a spade a spade, is systemd that bad?

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#2 2023-08-29 17:37:53

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,160  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

How low have we fallen to be discussing a reddit thread here . . . seriously . . . worst place ever for accurate information . . .

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#3 2023-08-29 20:50:53

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 3,160  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

I don't know how or why it went down that way in arch (and don't really care). But I do know how and why it went down in Debian. Re-posting these links for those who have missed them. Pehaps they will answer some of your questions:

OT: Open letter to the Linux World
Date: Tue Aug 12 2014 - 15:35:49 EST
https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/ker … 02496.html

Systemd: The Biggest Fallacies by Jude C. Nelson
https://sysdfree.wordpress.com/2018/03/26/186/

General Resolution: init system coupling
https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003

Combatting revisionist history
2015-02-25 20:23
https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=120652

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#4 2023-08-30 10:53:32

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 860  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

golinux wrote:

How low have we fallen to be discussing a reddit thread here . . . seriously . . . worst place ever for accurate information . . .

Nah, we could still fall lower, we could be discussing, tik tok videos, or stuff from discord. big_smile


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#5 2023-08-30 10:54:50

zapper
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Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 860  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

If the people who develop arch say that, they have rocks in their heads or are lying.

wink


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If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
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#6 2023-08-30 11:29:09

swanson
Member
Registered: 2020-04-22
Posts: 93  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

My turning point with Systemd was when it slowed down my surfing by taking over the resolver. Systemd created a lag and it was unacceptable to me. I already knew about its history and Poettering, so since then I've been waiting to transition completely to Devuan.

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#7 2023-08-30 21:45:12

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 860  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

swanson wrote:

My turning point with Systemd was when it slowed down my surfing by taking over the resolver. Systemd created a lag and it was unacceptable to me. I already knew about its history and Poettering, so since then I've been waiting to transition completely to Devuan.

For me, it was more of a suspicion coupled with reasoning.

I heard about the debian/devuan situation announcement early in its fork around the time I was using trisquel gnu/linux.

I heard that archlinux around that time and fedora previously had tried and failed in this endeavor. Although I know now that archlinux, has a variant known as obarun so... not so much like I thought.

But I looked into arguments on the against systemd side because I wondered what reasoning they had.

Half a year or so passed and I decided to check into a few things. Sure enough, systemd was a huge package.

Around that time I thought to myself, the more amount of code, the more complex it is, it must also be harder to find the bugs.

Even if you have a million people working at it, 1 million lines of code, must be a mess to debug.

Having  four to eight thousand lines of code however, or similar like openrc, or others which have less, probably takes less people to find those problems.

If this is the case, why bother with an over-engineered concept when a simpler concept would take way less debugging and have a lot less problems?

Also, I scoured a bunch of the systemd bugs from certain websites like nosystemd and without-systemd, etc...

when it boiled down to it, I realized the unix philosophy was by far superior.

And the question became, what drugs made people think it was a good idea to bloat an otherwise good idea?

Then it came to me as time passed:

Greed and power

Both of which are completely unreasonable reasons to do this.

Besides, its only short term profit that will later come back to bite everyone and arguably as I said elsewhere, the planet itself.

PS, for those who don't believe in climate change, you don't have to believe it. It can still do damage whether you know it is happening or not.

Feelings do not equal facts.

wink


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
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#8 2023-09-17 23:23:28

zapper
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Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 860  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

Btw, if systemd theoretically was the lesser of two evils, what the hell has this world become!

O.o

That sounds like a nightmare.

Imagine how much more bloated the other alternative would be.

xD


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
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#9 2023-09-18 16:29:00

chris2be8
Member
Registered: 2018-08-11
Posts: 267  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

zapper wrote:

Btw, if systemd theoretically was the lesser of two evils, what the hell has this world become!

Presumably the only other choice would be Windows.

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#10 2023-09-18 16:32:24

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 860  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

chris2be8 wrote:
zapper wrote:

Btw, if systemd theoretically was the lesser of two evils, what the hell has this world become!

Presumably the only other choice would be Windows.

That both makes sense and is a pathetic situation.

>.>
<.<


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
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#11 2023-09-18 16:33:14

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 860  

Re: They say systemd makes packaging easier, better of the two evils?

chris2be8 wrote:
zapper wrote:

Btw, if systemd theoretically was the lesser of two evils, what the hell has this world become!

Presumably the only other choice would be Windows.

That both makes sense and sounds awful.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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