A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

golinux · 2018-12-08 23:32:59

esr wrote:

I tried a Devuan install from scratch on the NUC, failed due to the NIC problem, then did a Mint install from scratch.

Indeed you did and I found it:

The problem turned out to be that the Devuan ASCII kernel is too old. The list of vendor-ID/subtype pairs for the e1000 didn't include the subtype the NIC on the NUC has.

Apologies for not remembering to connect those two pieces that were so many paras apart. I'll try to do better next time.

Centurion Dan · 2018-12-10 21:51:12

To be honest, I largely agree with ESR with respect to his defining the problems that make Devuan a frustrating installer experience...

I think he's a bit too idealistic in thinking it's possible to have one installer that covers every type of installation situation, However we could certainly make selecting the installer a much smoother process simply by setting up an installation helper web page where a user can answer a couple of simple questions to select the right installer for their particular scenario:

1) What hardware are you trying to install on?
- identifying the target hardware first gives the first big clues to narrow down the options.
- start from class of hardware (server, desktop, laptop, all-in-one, tablet, small systems (raspberry pi, beaglebone black, intel nuc etc)
and then get into specifics that will identify thing like architecture.. might be good to have a fuzzy search for this.

2) Identify the intended use case (Desktop, server, router, minimal etc) - this list should be ordered based on most likely use case for a the hardware selection.

3) Would you like to see how it runs before committing to an installation:
- only presented where live installer options are a reasonable option ie; desktop or office productivity use cases

4) Installation type
- this question may be pre-determined by previous questions
- where there is a selection ie non-live desktop/server ie - installs on pc/server hardware then we need to explain the pro's or con's of the installater options most likely net-install vs's full DVD/BD images.

All the images must include all the available firmware likely required to complete the install.

This could be extended to include questions like Language, and installation task selection (informed by the above), root and user accounts setup and installation of ssh public keys - all of which can be provided as a preseed to minimize the install time questions.

With respect to old kernels... well we need to perhaps provide better advice on how to use the unstable/testing installers to install a stable system with backported kernels.

This isn't an intractable problem, but it will take time and, whilst I'd love to help with doing this I also need to earn a living. I'd be glad to consider various funding options to that end that would allow me or others to be able to dedicate more time to solving these problems.

Last edited by Centurion Dan (2018-12-10 21:53:15)

ChuangTzu · 2018-12-10 22:44:33

Know your niche/audience and cater to them. Devuan/Debian is not the same audience as *buntu/Mageia etc...

The expectation should remain to research and learn, ask questions, get guidance etc... this will create and encourage empowered users, not simple automatons clicking yes, yes, yes, all the way through an installer. Also, keep in mind the more something does, the more intrinsic risk that it will screw up.

Last edited by ChuangTzu (2018-12-10 22:45:02)

Centurion Dan · 2018-12-11 21:01:54

ChuangTzu wrote:

Know your niche/audience and cater to them. Devuan/Debian is not the same audience as *buntu/Mageia etc...
The expectation should remain to research and learn, ask questions, get guidance etc... this will create and encourage empowered users, not simple automatons clicking yes, yes, yes, all the way through an installer. Also, keep in mind the more something does, the more intrinsic risk that it will screw up.

There is no reason that Devuan can't or shouldn't have an audience appeal that also caters to the *buntu | Mageia | Mint type of user - ie those that just want something that is simple to install and works well out of the box.

The risk of increased installation complexity required to solve ESR's challenge is why I suggest using a webpage as a pre-installation helper to select the correct installer type. It also means we don't further complicate an already complex to build and complex to use set of installation images. A web based tool as I've proposed is easier to develop, and extend, and if we collect installation reports with accurate descriptions, we can even look use them to inform more tailored installation options for specific hardware along with better documentation of quirks.

Last edited by Centurion Dan (2018-12-11 21:05:23)

esr · 2018-12-11 21:56:46

Centurion Dan wrote:

The risk of increased installation complexity required to solve ESR's challenge is why I suggest using a webpage as a pre-installation helper to select the correct installer type.

I think such a webpage would be a good first step.

Ultimately, though, what I think is going on here is a failure to catch up to the implications of portable media that are both high-volume and writeable. The design assumptions of installers built for the CD/DVD era are obsolete.

Imagine this scenario:

Your installer starts out as a comparatively tiny live image with the installer on it as an ordinary userspace application. The installer, at this point, only has the local assets to do a very minimal install, perhaps just a text-only one for headless server use.

However, it has a menu. You can tell it to download and cache the assets for (say) an XFCE desktop install. (All they are is a bunch of .deb files, after all.) Or, if you have a fast pipe, you can say "Grab everything" and after download you now have an all-purpose installer.

When you want to do an installation, invoke the installer. It looks at the assets it has downloaded and presents you with a menu or tree of installation options based on what debs it can see on the thumb drive. (The really elegant way to do this would be to just have a metapackage per install type.)

Want to customize your installer, maybe because you tend a server fleet? Easiest thing; there's a file of "extra" dev names on the thumb drive that you can modify.

golinux · 2018-12-12 00:26:27

Centurion Dan wrote:

There is no reason that Devuan can't or shouldn't have an audience appeal that also caters to the *buntu | Mageia | Mint type of user - ie those that just want something that is simple to install and works well out of the box.

I think that creating something simple that works OOTB should fall to derivatives much as 'buntu and Mint are derived from Debian. In fact, Devuan has considered offering just a base install leaving all the "niceties" - ie desktopy things - to derivatives. Even now, there is a quite a list of derivatives to suit different needs with each having their loyal following. I still think that would be the best way to go. Perhaps some day you could provide a "Centurion" derivative that manifests your vision!!

If this forum and our ML were overrun with 'buntu refugees, I think we would lose much of our core base that has made Devuan so unique. That's exactly what happened in 2013 on the Debian forums when they started catering to n00bies. There was a HUGE exodus when many (if not most) of the knowledgeable users left the sinking ship. It's been all downhill from there.

Devuan is in many ways, the ark that is preserving the knowledge of what Debian was and could have been. Please let's not turn it into another 'buntu for the masses.

sgage · 2018-12-12 00:44:03

golinux wrote:

Centurion Dan wrote:
There is no reason that Devuan can't or shouldn't have an audience appeal that also caters to the *buntu | Mageia | Mint type of user - ie those that just want something that is simple to install and works well out of the box.
I think that creating something simple that works OOTB should fall to derivatives much as 'buntu and Mint are derived from Debian. In fact, Devuan has considered offering just a base install leaving all the "niceties" - ie desktopy things - to derivatives. Even now, there is a quite a list of derivatives to suit different needs with each having their loyal following. I still think that would be the best way to go. Perhaps some day you could provide a "Centurion" derivative that manifests your vision!!
If this forum and our ML were overrun with 'buntu refugees, I think we would lose much of our core base that has made Devuan so unique. That's exactly what happened in 2013 on the Debian forums when they started catering to n00bies. There was a HUGE exodus when many (if not most) of the knowledgeable users left the sinking ship. It's been all downhill from there.
Devuan is in many ways, the ark that is preserving the knowledge of what Debian was and could have been. Please let's not turn it into another 'buntu for the masses.

Uvuantu. ;-)

KatolaZ · 2018-12-12 10:39:09

Imagine this scenario:
Your installer starts out as a comparatively tiny live image with the installer on it as an ordinary userspace application. The installer, at this point, only has the local assets to do a very minimal install, perhaps just a text-only one for headless server use.
However, it has a menu. You can tell it to download and cache the assets for (say) an XFCE desktop install. (All they are is a bunch of .deb files, after all.) Or, if you have a fast pipe, you can say "Grab everything" and after download you now have an all-purpose installer.
When you want to do an installation, invoke the installer. It looks at the assets it has downloaded and presents you with a menu or tree of installation options based on what debs it can see on the thumb drive. (The really elegant way to do this would be to just have a metapackage per install type.)

What you are describing above is exactly the netinst image (or the cdrom/dvd image for that matter), which are all isohybrid and can be put in a USB stick. The "menu" you are referring to is called "tasksel", has been in Debian (and most of the derivatives) for the best part of the last 15 years, and is indeed launched after the base system has been installed. It has a few installation options (Desktop, Basic system tools, Web Server, etc), which are based on the debs that are indeed available in the medium (or all of them, if you have network connection). And guess what: it is implemented through a meta-package for each install type :-)

The Devuan version contains as options the supported desktop environments, plus a "Console productivity" option, plus a few more choices. Just try the "_netinst" image, or the cdrom/dvd images under "installer_iso":

https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/installer-iso/

The only difference with your vision is that, AFAIK, d-i does not allow to download the packages for future installations: it works on a one-shot basis. You decide what you want to get, and it does the job.

Want to customize your installer, maybe because you tend a server fleet? Easiest thing; there's a file of "extra" dev names on the thumb drive that you can modify.

This is slightly harder to achieve, since dpkg is a stateful package management system, and needs a working system to work properly (or at all). That's why it is relatively difficult to run a debian-installer-like installer as a "user process" under any other distribution: you need a meaningful /var/lib/dpkg and /var/lib/apt for the whole thing to work. Nevertheless, d-i is scriptable, and you can easily provide a conf file for an automated install to be replicated in several machines. But this is not a "end-user" kind of scenario, so you are expected to read some documentation about that ;-)

HND

KatolaZ

KatolaZ · 2018-12-12 10:41:51

The risk of increased installation complexity required to solve ESR's challenge is why I suggest using a webpage as a pre-installation helper to select the correct installer type. It also means we don't further complicate an already complex to build and complex to use set of installation images. A web based tool as I've proposed is easier to develop, and extend, and if we collect installation reports with accurate descriptions, we can even look use them to inform more tailored installation options for specific hardware along with better documentation of quirks.

I actually like the idea of a simple webpage that can help newcomers to choose the right image to use. I think this would be a perfect concrete task to offer to anybody that is willing to help Devuan. I am pretty sure we could find in DNG at least a couple of people interested in leading on that front.

HND

KatolaZ

golinux · 2018-12-12 16:47:56

KatolaZ wrote:

The risk of increased installation complexity required to solve ESR's challenge is why I suggest using a webpage as a pre-installation helper to select the correct installer type. It also means we don't further complicate an already complex to build and complex to use set of installation images. A web based tool as I've proposed is easier to develop, and extend, and if we collect installation reports with accurate descriptions, we can even look use them to inform more tailored installation options for specific hardware along with better documentation of quirks.
I actually like the idea of a simple webpage that can help newcomers to choose the right image to use. I think this would be a perfect concrete task to offer to anybody that is willing to help Devuan. I am pretty sure we could find in DNG at least a couple of people interested in leading on that front.
HND
KatolaZ

I like this idea too. But over the years, I have been surprised how many users - even those who should know better - fail to look for READMEs and other documentation when installing. So this info will need to be annoyingly obvious (just short of a blinking marquee). If we could condense the descriptions (we're all pretty good at that) a link-that-can't-be-ignored could go at the top of the getdevuan page for high visibility. There is already an outline to get the ball rolling in this DNG post:

And please find below a more detailed explanation on the motivations
behind each image:
- netinst exist because it's the preferred way of installing minimal
systems and servers;
- the install DVD ISO exists because there are many users asking for a
single medium that they can download once and install many times
(e.g., due to bandwidth restrictions), and supports more than just
XFCE;
- the 3-cdrom set exists because we had many users asking for a
smaller footprint (again, bandwidth is not cheap everywhere) set of
images that they could use to install offline with a minimal XFCE
desktop;
- desktop-live exists because many people asked for a live Devuan
version which could be easily tried and installed. This is also the
preferred Devuan flavour used in reviews;
- minimal-live was thought as a recovery tool and has a specific focus
on accessibility (especially regarding visually-impaired and blind
users), and provides a full-featured console-based setup;
- so many embedded images exist because ARM vendors have not agreed on
a common standard;
- qcow, vagrant, and vcox images exist because many Devuan users like
to have ready-to-use images for their VMs;
- on top of those, there are also the usual mini.iso and netboot
images, although not advertised on files.devuan.org.

Anybody want to step up to make a draft for that page?

esr · 2018-12-12 19:58:42

KatolaZ wrote:

The only difference with your vision is that, AFAIK, d-i does not allow to download the packages for future installations: it works on a one-shot basis. You decide what you want to get, and it does the job.

But that's a big difference, because the ability to build a local cache of debs incrementally on your thumb drive is how you could incrementally get to a universal installer without having the initial image download be painful.

It sounds like we have may have narrowed this down to a place that effort that effort could be usefully applied - that is, upgrading the Debian installer to do this when it detects it's living on a writable medium.

Last edited by esr (2018-12-12 19:59:06)

golinux · 2018-12-12 20:21:18

Oh . . . is that all? Looking forward to your patch.

esr · 2018-12-12 20:45:49

golinux wrote:

Oh . . . is that all? Looking forward to your patch.

It's not "all" at all, but it would be a good start.

I must tell you that level of hostility I'm seeing here against making Devuan more welcoming is not exactly encouraging me to commit to such a project. Why do it if the core devs not only don't care about the issue but would prefer sitting in their own corner muttering about purity and shuffling the problem off to unspecified derivatives?

golinux · 2018-12-13 06:37:40

We live in personal and communal spaces. Imagine someone coming to one of those spaces and immediately wanting to rearrange the furniture. Maybe they think it will improve the feng shui or provide a better view of the lake or . . .

We all have reasons for our actions and most often it is to satisfy our personal preferences. Sometimes it's for what we consider the greater good (which of course could be a completely deluded conclusion). But that is little consolation to those living in that space who might not be so enthused about the disruption. This proves once again that human interactions are flawed and unreliable.

Overlaying emotional perceptions and interpretations and judgments on any "uncomfortable" situation never adds value to the conversation. It is in fact a hindrance to cooperation.

jaromil has said more than once that we welcome anyone to join us at the campfire if they come in peace. Those of us working on Devuan maintain a strong collaborative effort. It is never about any one of us. Even though we may not always agree, we share a commitment to the future Devuan. We are always exploring and learning how to do things better. We just want to move the furniture when we decide it's the right time and for the right reasons.

cynwulf · 2018-12-13 11:59:20

esr wrote:

It's not "all" at all, but it would be a good start.
I must tell you that level of hostility I'm seeing here against making Devuan more welcoming is not exactly encouraging me to commit to such a project. Why do it if the core devs not only don't care about the issue but would prefer sitting in their own corner muttering about purity and shuffling the problem off to unspecified derivatives?

Disclaimer: I am neither a Devuan user (nor a Linux user for that matter).

So I do perhaps have the benefit of "looking in from the outside", as it were.

I believe you may be judging the Devuan project by the words and opinions of a few users and one or two developers in one thread on this "fan forum". I call it that not to be derisive, but because in my view forums which are affiliated with a particular distribution fall into the "fansite" category.

I would say that if you go to a given FOSS project's mailing lists or forums and tell them that they essentially need to change how they're currently doing things (seemingly in order to get you on board), but not actually offer any code or real solutions, the answer would be similar. If you also tell them their project "sucks pretty badly", again the reaction is not likely to be overly positive.

I actually think there is a lot of merit in the "one installer" method, but beyond that we probably don't agree. For example I would consider a universal live image approach as an unnecessary waste of sever bandwidth. I also would not see the need to fire up a whole live session and X server just to get an OS installed. Speaking for myself, I want a simple and comprehensive command line / ncurses driven, installer which just does it all.

That, as far as I'm aware, already exists in the netinst image. I would just say - forget the blinkered ideologues and include the firmware as standard.

CD1, CD2, DVD... etc should be consigned to history. There should come a point where they are no longer provided and netinst should be preferred.

While I think the installation images need to be a bit easier to locate on the website - Debian also had this problem - I don't think there is anything wrong as such with respect to how the installers are presented and the form they take - they just need to be better organised.

As someone who is hopeless at navigating "visual" UIs in general, I find most websites confusing, especially modern ones. So the thing doesn't need a "web 2.0" overhaul, it just needs a few basic things done, like grouping the installation mirrors per country and region (if this is already the case, then apologies, but I just saw a mass of mirrors).

Last edited by cynwulf (2018-12-13 14:47:46)

catprints · 2018-12-13 14:33:10

As a Devuan "user" I appreciate as many installation options as the devs are willing to offer. They do the work and so far many have benefited.
The choices made up to this point have been carefully considered and hopefully will remain so.
Edited to clarify "installation options" as cd,dvd,netinstall,live install and so forth.

Last edited by catprints (2018-12-13 18:02:04)

jeffreyC · 2018-12-13 15:59:23

Philosophically Devuan seems to carry on the original idea of Debian, where it was intended to be a kit to build your own system or distro upon rather than complete and loaded with what someone else thinks you should want.

In my opinion that is a very good thing, but then I know my tastes and wants are not for everyone.

Ron · 2018-12-14 00:12:41

When I first tried Devuan, I had no idea which installation option I should use. So it was confusing for me. And the one I did download didn't work. Maybe I downloaded the wrong one? Thankfully the Miyo installation file worked. I can appreciate where esr is coming from on this issue, and most of the other things he has said. If he can start his own derivative of Devuan, I'd help any way I could (which would probably be limited to be a beta tester).

MiyoLinux · 2018-12-15 15:14:23

esr wrote:

I must tell you that level of hostility I'm seeing here...

Mr. ESR,

I will ask you to forgive me if my original response was hostile toward you...

To be honest, I still don't know who you are. Perhaps I could have done an internet search about you, but I rarely surf the web. I have 3 or 4 websites that I normally visit, and I rarely visit any others. However, it's apparent that you hold some sway in the "Linux community".

If you were met with hostility, it may be due to the fact of your opening statement?

My username ain't lying, I am in fact "ESR". If that declaration makes you sit up and pay attention, good - it was supposed to.

Now sir...I'm a nobody, and I will quickly acknowledge that. I have no inclination that my presence here has any authority whatsoever. I do what I do, and I enjoy what I do...to my own detriment. LOLOLOL!!!

I don't expect anyone to respect me simply because I'm "MiyoLinux". I don't expect anyone to sit up and pay attention just because I'm "MiyoLinux". While I rely upon what others have said about you in this thread, I must accept that you have contributed much to Linuxism...and if that be true, I thank you for that.

However, I must also remind you...that you...as a new member to this forum...presented yourself (by declaration) in a hostile manner. "Sit up and pay attention"..."It was supposed to"...

Good grief man.

Some of us don't know who you are...and telling us that we should respect you simply by declaring so is...well...I'll be quiet.

If an administrator thinks this should be removed, I understand.

If this paints a black-eye on me, I understand.

If I get banned from this forum, and Devuan wants to distance itself from me, I understand.

If so, I leave you with this...

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

cynicfm · 2018-12-15 16:37:29

There is something about devuan kernel being outdated, the newest is like 419 i think, as far as i remember devuan had 410.
Not sure if that was directly related to devuan outdated kernel but once i wanted to tweak nouveau drivers via some cat *directory* and then echo 0f *directory* or something like this, and after i did this my OS was just freezing and had to reset.
Wheras on linux artix that has newer kernel, it never froze but well nouveau for nvidia sucked as it appeared, nouveau with my gpu model of nvidia sucks so maybe the outdated kernel is not that big issue, if even on newer kernel i couldnt get nouveau making nvidia gpu in laptop is use perform better than intel (optimus). also i read something that kernel 417 had some crap from nsa and google

However i have to say if you mentioned devuan being bigger than ubuntu i have to say this, from what i noticed and my personal experience majority of linux users, especially beginners, the most important thing they care about is how they desktop environment look like. I noticed that in general linux users will choose bloated distro with great candy graphics rather than devuan xfce.
If devuan team wants to be better than ubuntu, it should tweak a bit with xfce to make it look sweetier, so majority of ubuntu or gnome users will feel like yeah devuan xfce desktop looks much better than this fedora or ubuntu i have, lets hop to devuan . Its like im gonna use this distro cuz it has cool desktop environment better than others.
Whos gonna like devuan xfce if majority of people are used to candy manjaros, androids or apple iphones.... sad but true (or even windows 7)

Also what also helps is some distros have this option install alongside certain distro. if somebody is not familiar with partitioning and has been using some distro for a while then he probably doesnt wanna delete his current system, so this is when install alongside comes in handy.
And also popular distros autodetect gpu drivers so majority of users will use distro that gives them steam and their nvidia gpu configured out of the box...

Unfortunately i am the same, but most of linux users doesnt wanna unix experience or simplicity, i noticed average linux user feels great and superior over those who use windows, im super cuz i play steam games on linux and valve is amazing cuz i can play their games. i dont care about open source free games though for free open source system i use.
Whats even harder is almost everywhere they will sell you pc or laptop designed for windows 10. I went to store i wanted to buy some decent laptop with 8gb ram at least, and they sold me 4gb ram and some nvidia optimus gpu with intel . while intel 620 is not that bad for some games i have to say, i wish i could replace this geforce for more ram memory... Sad truth is sad, modern popular linux distros are becoming another windows or macos, and debates what should i use linux or windows??

edit; so basically if theres some war against systemd, i believe linux and microsoft are close to each other, so there isnt war against systemd there is war against microsoft and systemd itself, lets say microsoft and red hat, well government google and other counts too??

Last edited by cynicfm (2018-12-15 16:42:44)

nixer · 2018-12-15 17:10:04

Greetings Mr. ESR,

I am another nobody just moving along at my own pace, and doing my own thing, especially with linux. I too read your initial statement :

Sit up and pay attention...It was supposed to...

And got the same reaction as Miyo:

Good grief man. Some of us don't know who you are...and telling us that we should respect you simply by declaring so is...well...

Well, it did not portray you as a humble or appreciative person. Granted, a lot of times forum boards do not accurately portray someone. Miscommunications are easy and do happen. However, after reading your homepage, I think you are more humble and appreciative than you first appeared to be (within this forum board anyway). I do disagree with your "personal shooting rig" though. I prefer something different, I thank you for your contributions to free software, and I thank you for your ideas presented in this thread.

I think all that is needed is a short write-up on the different installation medias available, and what will be installed by each. Most of the content needed for this write up has already been presented within this thread. This write-up could also be as a single Read Me text file placed with the downloadable files. A short explanation of each media would be informative and this would help new users.

And thank you Devuan devs for all your efforts! I like what you have done, and have enjoyed using your product for over 4 years!

golinux · 2018-12-15 17:19:19

cynicfm wrote:

There is something about devuan kernel being outdated, the newest is like 419 i think, as far as i remember devuan had 410.

Devuan is about STABILITY not cutting edge. Newer kernels are available from backports or you can build your own.

I noticed that in general linux users will choose bloated distro with great candy graphics rather than devuan xfce. If devuan team wants to be better than ubuntu, it should tweak a bit with xfce to make it look sweetier, so majority of ubuntu or gnome users will feel like yeah devuan xfce desktop looks much better than this fedora or ubuntu i have, lets hop to devuan . Its like im gonna use this distro cuz it has cool desktop environment better than others.

We are not trying to be "better" than Ubuntu or any other distro. We offer an alternative. And desktop users are NOT our target audience and we are NOT trying to attract users who want shiny, shiny. As I said before . . . there was a time when we considered shipping Devuan as a core system without ANY desktop.

And also popular distros autodetect gpu drivers so majority of users will use distro that gives them steam and their nvidia gpu configured out of the box...

You just don't get that Devuan is not an OOTB experience (and neither is Debian). If you want that feature, use Ubuntu or Mint or better yet lobby to have an Ubuntu or Mint Devuan Edition. Please stop trying to turn us into something we aren't (and hopefully will never be).

golinux · 2018-12-15 17:22:51

nixer wrote:

I think all that is needed is a short write-up on the different installation medias available, and what will be installed by each. Most of the content needed for this write up has already been presented within this thread. This write-up could also be as a single Read Me text file placed with the downloadable files. A short explanation of each media would be informative and this would help new users.

Revisions to the website to further explain and clarify are in process.

cynicfm · 2018-12-15 17:27:31

golinux i was only being sarcastic, that's it .

i mean just majority of linux users care about candy desktop environment or out of the box experience as i said. author of the topic mentioned being devuan bigger than ubuntu.
i doubt it that lots of people care about things like init system or non bloated distribution.

Last edited by cynicfm (2018-12-15 17:28:06)

golinux · 2018-12-15 17:38:41

cynicfm wrote:

golinux i was only being sarcastic, that's it .
i mean just majority of linux users care about candy desktop environment or out of the box experience as i said. author of the topic mentioned being devuan bigger than ubuntu.
i doubt it that lots of people care about things like init system or non bloated distribution.

Ah, OK. For most people a computer in any form is a device like a refrigerator or a microwave. They don't understand or care about the technology. Sadly, they only care about the appearance. Their collective ignorance is bringing much harm to our social fabric and governance but they are blind to that. Unfortunately, there is no cure for stupidity. And so we slide further down the rabbit hole . . .

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#26 2018-12-08 23:32:59

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#27 2018-12-10 21:51:12

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#28 2018-12-10 22:44:33

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#29 2018-12-11 21:01:54

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#30 2018-12-11 21:56:46

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#31 2018-12-12 00:26:27

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#32 2018-12-12 00:44:03

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#33 2018-12-12 10:39:09

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#34 2018-12-12 10:41:51

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#35 2018-12-12 16:47:56

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#36 2018-12-12 19:58:42

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#37 2018-12-12 20:21:18

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#38 2018-12-12 20:45:49

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#39 2018-12-13 06:37:40

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#40 2018-12-13 11:59:20

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#41 2018-12-13 14:33:10

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#42 2018-12-13 15:59:23

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#43 2018-12-14 00:12:41

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#44 2018-12-15 15:14:23

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#45 2018-12-15 16:37:29

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#46 2018-12-15 17:10:04

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#47 2018-12-15 17:19:19

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#48 2018-12-15 17:22:51

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#49 2018-12-15 17:27:31

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

#50 2018-12-15 17:38:41

Re: A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to

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