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@cakamity,
no, i don't take it personally;
just dislike if my comments are edited out by someone else that has got no authority to do so.
(certainly not you).
keep on running!
@Calamity, have you ever tried Rassoul Clay? Honestly, it's the best treatment!
just wished sometimes it could make the ahair grow back.
(minimalistic comment)
think it would be reasonable to put ap a poll to kindly ask user "rations" to come up with a more sensible "signature" ~ poll yes + no ~ non-binding decision ~ so he could accomodate with the spirit of devuan.
ediT ~ just kiddin' (not too much, of course),to nudge, thinkin', on the power of words.
not to be chming out of tune, but be glad if the KDE on X11 or plasma could be enhanced ~
not sure if it is related to KDE, but the main computer was freezing on me twice lately (admittedly running Boinc and several programs at the same time) ~ it quite never happened to me in the same fashion otherwise (still, had other problems, though, mostly with Caja or FileManagers etc.)
This on fresh installation of Devuan Excalibur 6 KDE on X11; not sure what to make out of it, but for the moment i have switched to a minor partition running XFCE and no issues since (besides the Thunderbird getting really slow / unresponsive at times in unified folder view, but that may be related to one specific account).
if you need games , you could test-install the steam.deb that could solve additional dependencies for you=?
afterwards you could just remove the steam, and the driver might remain for you.
wine usually install from wine hq, but there is also program "crossover" if you need specific support (never brought myself to buy a license for it, yet)
Hello ,
today i have installed the Excalibur anew;
with standard setting and standard DE Xfce.
just noticed that the browsing in network is still not supported by default.
maybe this can be amended on the fly for the .iso?
did need install additional package
gvfs-backends gvfs-fuse samba smbclientthank you very much.
@rolfie,
glad you could get ir running; i couldnt find it in the repos.
thescript is not mine, it is just lent from the net (seems it is derived from crouton , which is used in the past for chromebook on acer, nice project).
if it is not in the repos, the one outlined, it is a viable path.
best of wishes,
ricci
This is a writeup on how install Virtualbox on Devuan 6, but should function also for Devuan 5 or 7.
Found that the process can be a bit tricky, so thought it could be helpful to have the information at hand on one page.
This has only been properly tested on a recent AMD system, with KDE as GUI, so i may not function on your Computer likewise.
Please correct if any error or otherwise not functioning;
Download the Software
https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads
(Linux Distributions) > select (All distributions)
Download also (VirtualBox Extension Pack)!
(Preparatory Steps)
Install Kernel Headers
sudo apt install linux-headers-$(uname -r)For XFCE additional package needed
sudo apt install libxcb-cursor0sudo apt-get install qt6-base-dev1. Install the Software
sudo sh ./VirtualBox-7.2.20-175154-Linux_amd64.run1.1 Install the VirtualBox Extension Package
sudo virtualbox(GoTo > Extensions > Install)
1.2 initial configuration
sudo /sbin/vboxconfig2. Register Software for SecureBoot
(This step is necessary only if the System is booting with SecureBoot inplace)
sudo mkdir -m 0700 -p /var/lib/shim-signed/mok
sudo openssl req -nodes -new -x509 -newkey rsa:2048 -outform DER -addext "extendedKeyUsage=codeSigning" -keyout /var/lib/shim-signed/mok/MOK.priv -out /var/lib/shim-signed/mok/MOK.der
sudo mokutil --import /var/lib/shim-signed/mok/MOK.der
sudo reboot(give easy password to remember) > reboot > enroll MOK - Key with password you gave
2.1 re-configure virtualbox
sudo rcvboxdrv setup sudo /sbin/vboxconfignow in terminal there should be no more error when evoking "virtualbox;
3. enable external USB-devices functionality
when you start virtualbox most likely you will get error notice "usb not enumerated etc."
create "vbox.sh" with following content
#!/bin/bash
#
# Heavily inspired by https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton/wiki/VirtualBox-udev-integration
#
vbox_usbnode_path=$(find / -name VBoxCreateUSBNode.sh 2> /dev/null | head -n 1)
if [[ -z $vbox_usbnode_path ]]; then
echo Warning: VBoxCreateUSBNode.sh file has not been found.
exit 1
fi
chmod 755 $vbox_usbnode_path
chown root:root $vbox_usbnode_path
vboxusers_gid=$(getent group vboxusers | awk -F: '{printf "%d\n", $3}')
vbox_rules="SUBSYSTEM==\"usb_device\", ACTION==\"add\", RUN+=\"$vbox_usbnode_path \$major \$minor \$attr{bDeviceClass} $vboxusers_gid\"
SUBSYSTEM==\"usb\", ACTION==\"add\", ENV{DEVTYPE}==\"usb_device\", RUN+=\"$vbox_usbnode_path \$major \$minor \$attr{bDeviceClass} $vboxusers_gid\"
SUBSYSTEM==\"usb_device\", ACTION==\"remove\", RUN+=\"$vbox_usbnode_path --remove \$major \$minor\"
SUBSYSTEM==\"usb\", ACTION==\"remove\", ENV{DEVTYPE}==\"usb_device\", RUN+=\"$vbox_usbnode_path --remove \$major \$minor\""
echo "$vbox_rules" > /etc/udev/rules.d/virtualbox.rules
rm -f /etc/udev/rules.d/*-virtualbox.rules
udevadm control --reload
adduser `logname` vboxusers
echo All actions succeeded.
echo Log out and log in to see if the issue go fixed.make executable
chmod+x vbox.shlaunch script
sudo ./vbox.shreboot
4. now virtualbox should be ready for your virtualmachines
create virtual-machine to your liking
start virtualmachine
with AMD you will most likely not be able to launch virtualmachine since there is conflict with kvm module?
5. blacklist kvm_module
sudo modprobe -r kvm_amdnow it should function, you can start virtualmachine properly.
5.1 make blacklist permanent
sudo nano /etc/modprobe.d/mykvmblacklist.confblacklist kvm_amd
save & quit.
in the past i have sometimes used vmware workstation pro, but for some reason or another it does not seem function any longer well on my computer, it always quits after some time on AMD system; but this software is free and easy to download so for the moment will use it when needed, hope it can be helpful.
thank you,
happen to be in the fortuante situation tho have
1. relatively fresh install of devuan 6 excalibur
2. third nvme that is about to be purged of botched OS
3. wanted to test-try refracta for quite some time
am i right in assumption that with this tool could:
1. make a bootable clone of my fresh install onto a 128 GB usb stick? (would need to exclude only the virtualbox vm's to fit onto 128GB ust-stick)
2. deploy this copy-clone afterwards onto the nvme?
remember to have used knoppix in the past on a portable usb, that was when firefox was still in early version numbers and iceape was still roaming around, and i kinda liked it.
sudo chown -R root:root /usr
ERROR: ld.so: object 'libgtk3-nocsd.so.0' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded (cannot open shared object file): ignored.but now sudo seem no longer operational
sudo apt update
sudo: /usr/bin/sudo must be owned by uid 0 and have the setuid bit setthe AI friend can bhe helplful ~ normally consult only on "technical" issues, everything else is out of range, of course (well, he's is listening, and not amuesed, ![]()
edti: have recoverred from "sudo chwon -R root:root /usr" with the
chown root:root /usr/bin/sudo && chmod 4755 /usr/bin/sudo
however the issue still stands; am wondering if such a one-liner can have such destrcutive effect; but for now would have to answer affirmative; he has played me, again.
thanks, it fucntioned after applieing
sudo apt modernize-sources
The following files need modernizing:
- /etc/apt/sources.list
- /etc/apt/sources.list.d/boinc.list
Modernizing will replace .list files with the new .sources format,
add Signed-By values where they can be determined automatically,
and save the old files into .list.bak files.
This command supports the 'signed-by' and 'trusted' options. If you
have specified other options inside [] brackets, please transfer them
manually to the output files; see sources.list(5) for a mapping.
For a simulation, respond N in the following prompt.
Rewrite 2 sources? [Y/n]
Modernizing /etc/apt/sources.list...
- Writing /etc/apt/sources.list.d/devuan.sources
- Writing /etc/apt/sources.list.d/devuan-backports.sources
Warning: Could not determine Signed-By for URIs: http://deb.devuan.org/merged/, Suites: excalibur-backportssudo apt update
Hit:1 http://deb.devuan.org/merged excalibur-backports InRelease
Hit:2 http://deb.devuan.org/merged excalibur InRelease
Hit:3 http://deb.devuan.org/merged excalibur-security InRelease
Hit:4 http://deb.devuan.org/merged excalibur-updates InRelease
Hit:5 https://boinc.berkeley.edu/dl/linux/alpha/trixie trixie InRelease
All packages are up to date.
Notice: Missing Signed-By in the sources.list(5) entry for 'http://deb.devuan.org/merged'sudo apt -t excalibur-backports install linux-image-amd64
Upgrading:
linux-base linux-headers-amd64 linux-image-amd64 linux-libc-dev linux-sysctl-defaults
Installing dependencies:
cpp-14-for-host linux-binary-7.2.6+deb13-amd64 linux-kbuild-7.2.6+deb13
gcc-14-for-host linux-headers-7.2.6+deb13-amd64 linux-modules-7.2.6+deb13-amd64
linux-base-7.2.6+deb13-amd64 linux-headers-7.2.6+deb13-common
linux-base-amd64 linux-image-7.2.6+deb13-amd64
Suggested packages:
debian-kernel-handbook firmware-linux-free linux-doc-7.2
Summary:
Upgrading: 5, Installing: 10, Removing: 0, Not Upgrading: 129
Download size: 191 MB
Space needed: 290 MB / 739 GB availableHello ,
i have tried to install virtualbox-7.2 lately and initially run into some issues;
since friendly AI was eager to help out, did let him go easily on this, or rather took him to seriously ~
well , in short, i messed up the system.
since the virtualbox-extensions would not install, and if yes, give error, asked for advice, that coame very forthcoming;
probably the entry
sudo chown -R root:wheel /usrkilled it, since then have lots of issues on this partition, like
Error: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Spawn.ExecFaild: Failed to execute program.org.freedesktop.PackageKit: [b]Permission Denied[/b]and lots of permission denied error;
also, the start-menu has shrunken, and there is no longer option to shutdown or restart , just "leave", eg. "lock" "log-out" and "switch-user".
Hopefully someone know of a good method to set the permission back straight, so can continue use the OS properly;
Thanks.
Hello ,
have accidentally shot down my partition so it took me some time to recover
have noticed that on another partition the kernel is already above 7 (for excalibur, via bpo)
now on this new install, the kernel via backports does not seem wanna install;
maybe i did something wrong, otherwise please consider it as an "error bugreport" posted here instead of official bugreport.
getting this
sudo apt -t excalibur-backports install linux-image-amd64
Solving dependencies... Error!
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:
Unsatisfied dependencies:
linux-base-amd64 : Depends: linux-base-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 (= 7.1.13-1~bpo13+1) but it is not installable
linux-image-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 : Depends: linux-base-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 (= 7.1.13-1~bpo13+1) but it is not installable
Depends: linux-binary-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 (= 7.1.13-1~bpo13+1) but it is not going to be installed
Depends: linux-modules-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 (= 7.1.13-1~bpo13+1) but it is not installable
Error: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
Error: The following information from --solver 3.0 may provide additional context:
Unable to satisfy dependencies. Reached two conflicting decisions:
1. linux-base-amd64:amd64 is selected for install because:
1. linux-image-amd64:amd64=7.1.13-1~bpo13+1 is selected as an upgrade
2. linux-image-amd64:amd64=7.1.13-1~bpo13+1 Depends linux-base-amd64 (= 7.1.13-1~bpo13+1)
2. linux-base-amd64:amd64 Depends linux-base-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 (= 7.1.13-1~bpo13+1)
but none of the choices are installable:
[no choices]Unsatisfied dependencies:
linux-image-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 : Depends: linux-base-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 (= 7.1.13-1~bpo13+1) but it is not installable
Depends: linux-binary-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 (= 7.1.13-1~bpo13+1) but it is not going to be installed
Depends: linux-modules-7.1.13+deb13-amd64 (= 7.1.13-1~bpo13+1) but it is not installablehave updated the benchmark result for devuan 6,
the devuan box is upping the bar over the previous kubuntu result.
OPERATING SYSTEM: Devuan 6
Kernel: 6.12.111+deb13-amd64 (x86_64)
Desktop: KDE Plasma 6.3.6
Display Server: X Server 1.21.1.16
Compiler: GCC 14.2.0 Current Description: AMD Ryzen 7 9700X 8-Core testing with a ASUS PRIME X670-P (3881 BIOS) and Sapphire AMD Radeon RX 7600 8GB on Devuan 6 via the Phoronix Test Suite.
New Description:
HPL Linpack 2.3:
pts/hpl-1.0.0
Test 1 of 1
Test Profile Status: Experimental
Estimated Trial Run Count: 3
Estimated Time To Completion: 1 Hour, 14 Minutes [09:38 UTC]
Started Run 1 @ 08:24:56
Started Run 2 @ 08:26:50
Started Run 3 @ 08:28:45
Test Results:
833.55
830.88
829.02
Average: 831.15 GFLOPS
Deviation: 0.27%
Comparison of 393 OpenBenchmarking.org samples since 6 March 2021; median result: 84.49 GFLOPS. Box plot of samples:
[#*!#*##*---------------------*---------------------------------------------------------------------------------| ]
^ This Result (94th Percentile): 831
^ Intel Core i7-10750H: 213
^ AMD Ryzen 3 3200G: 60
^ Intel Xeon E-2288G: 135thanks, that functioned!
possibly had them already on hold, since i followed your guide-manual, but it may have been "overwritten" by a sneaky update.
(or possiblier the apt-mark hold was not fully implemented since it might have missed the pulseaudio and hence the new updates could fool me around)
thanks ever so much, invaluable help.
it is just loosely connected,
but am using devuan 7 and have noticed in latest "updates" the pipewire crept back in.
now it functions like on raspi os it seems , when you uninstalling pipewire, it automatically installs pulseaudio for you , and viceversa.
can someone please offer a highway out of this dilemma? thanks.
sudo apt remove pipewire
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
libconfig++15 liblua5.5-0 libpipewire-0.3-modules libwireplumber-0.5-0
libffado2 libopenfec1 libroc0.4 pipewire-bin
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove them.
Installing dependencies:
pulseaudio
Suggested packages:
pavumeter pavucontrol paprefs
Recommended packages:
dbus-user-session
REMOVING:
pipewire pipewire-pulse wireplumber
Summary:
Upgrading: 0, Installing: 1, Removing: 3, Not Upgrading: 8
Download size: 1,195 kB
Space needed: 5,734 kB / 22.6 GB available
Continue? [Y/n]
Get:1 http://deb.devuan.org/merged freia/main amd64 pulseaudio amd64 17.0+dfsg1-3 [1,195 kB]
Fetched 1,195 kB in 5s (231 kB/s)
(Reading database… 567154 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing wireplumber (0.5.17-1)…
Selecting previously unselected package pulseaudio.
(Reading database… 566991 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack …/pulseaudio_17.0+dfsg1-3_amd64.deb…
Unpacking pulseaudio (17.0+dfsg1-3)…
dpkg: pipewire-pulse: dependency problems, but removing anyway as requested:
plasma-pa depends on pipewire-pulse | pulseaudio; however:
Package pipewire-pulse is to be removed.
Package pulseaudio is not configured yet.
libcanberra-pulse:amd64 depends on pipewire-pulse | pulseaudio; however:
Package pipewire-pulse is to be removed.
Package pulseaudio is not configured yet.
(Reading database… 567234 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing pipewire-pulse (1.6.9-2)…
Removing pipewire:amd64 (1.6.9-2)…
Setting up pulseaudio (17.0+dfsg1-3)…
Processing triggers for libglib2.0-0t64:i386 (2.90.0-1)…
Processing triggers for dbus (1.16.2-5devuan1+b1)…
Processing triggers for man-db (2.13.1-1)…
Processing triggers for libglib2.0-0t64:amd64 (2.90.0-1)…sudo apt remove pulseaudio
Installing dependencies:
pipewire pipewire-pulse wireplumber
Suggested packages:
libspa-0.2-libcamera wireplumber-doc
REMOVING:
pulseaudio
Summary:
Upgrading: 0, Installing: 3, Removing: 1, Not Upgrading: 8
Download size: 277 kB
Freed space: 5,734 kB
Continue? [Y/n]
Get:1 http://deb.devuan.org/merged freia/main amd64 pipewire amd64 1.6.9-2 [117 kB]
Get:2 http://deb.devuan.org/merged freia/main amd64 pipewire-pulse amd64 1.6.9-2 [15.4 kB]
Get:3 http://deb.devuan.org/merged freia/main amd64 wireplumber amd64 0.5.17-1 [144 kB]
Fetched 277 kB in 4s (64.7 kB/s)
Selecting previously unselected package pipewire:amd64.
(Reading database… 567213 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack …/pipewire_1.6.9-2_amd64.deb…
Unpacking pipewire:amd64 (1.6.9-2)…
Selecting previously unselected package pipewire-pulse.
Preparing to unpack …/pipewire-pulse_1.6.9-2_amd64.deb…
Unpacking pipewire-pulse (1.6.9-2)…
dpkg: pulseaudio: dependency problems, but removing anyway as requested:
plasma-pa depends on pipewire-pulse | pulseaudio; however:
Package pipewire-pulse is not configured yet.
Package pulseaudio is to be removed.
libcanberra-pulse:amd64 depends on pipewire-pulse | pulseaudio; however:
Package pipewire-pulse is not configured yet.
Package pulseaudio is to be removed.
(Reading database… 567234 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing pulseaudio (17.0+dfsg1-3)…
Selecting previously unselected package wireplumber.
(Reading database… 566997 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to unpack …/wireplumber_0.5.17-1_amd64.deb…
Unpacking wireplumber (0.5.17-1)…
Setting up pipewire:amd64 (1.6.9-2)…
Setting up wireplumber (0.5.17-1)…
Setting up pipewire-pulse (1.6.9-2)…
Processing triggers for libglib2.0-0t64:amd64 (2.90.0-1)…
Processing triggers for libglib2.0-0t64:i386 (2.90.0-1)…
Processing triggers for dbus (1.16.2-5devuan1+b1)…
Processing triggers for man-db (2.13.1-1)…even
sudo apt remove pipewire --no-install-recommends
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
libconfig++15 liblua5.5-0 libpipewire-0.3-modules libwireplumber-0.5-0
libffado2 libopenfec1 libroc0.4 pipewire-bin
Use 'sudo apt autoremove' to remove them.
Installing dependencies:
pulseaudio
Suggested packages:
pavumeter pavucontrol paprefs
Recommended packages:
dbus-user-session
REMOVING:
pipewire pipewire-pulse wireplumber
Summary:
Upgrading: 0, Installing: 1, Removing: 3, Not Upgrading: 8
Download size: 1,195 kB
Space needed: 5,734 kB / 22.6 GB available
Continue? [Y/n] thanks
@forsoothplays,
fair enough, have noticed the AI "responsd" anyways,or is trying as such, depending on configuration of course.
here is how it looks on my laptop.
lspci -nnk | grep -iA3 vga
ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgtk3-nocsd.so.0' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded (cannot open shared object file): ignored.
ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgtk3-nocsd.so.0' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded (cannot open shared object file): ignored.
00:01.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Wani [Radeon R5/R6/R7 Graphics] [1002:9874] (rev c9)
Subsystem: Lenovo Device [17aa:5120]
Kernel driver in use: amdgpu
Kernel modules: amdgpuglad however if you solved it for you, also Ubuntu can make a laòptop user happy.
(noticed that the forum overhaul is not fully inclusive, but that may just be a observation tad out of place)
hello ,
would not like to look like a fool around here, but what "error" message made you conclude that the firmware is not correctly "deployed"?
that you could not login properly or not get a working GUI with the 7700s attached, or how else did you come to that conclusion?
having a hard time believing that hte 7700s would not funciton on Devuan 6 or 7, but am open to amazement.
if you however tried to install those drivers here
https://www.amd.com/en/support/download … ivers.html
that however could explain having issues since those drivers normally odnt function onn devuan linux , and are only since lately supported on debian (at least last time i tried it functioned).
i am surprised at the turn of the events. where you being offered a new mainboard or what prompted the replacement?
this is what AI overview offered
Die AMD Radeon RX 7700S ist direkt im Linux-Kernel und im freien Mesa-Grafikstack integriert; es müssen keine proprietären Treiber manuell installiert werden
Das Paket firmware-amd-graphics muss auf Ihrem System installiert sein (bei den meisten Distributionen standardmäßig vorhanden
lspci -nnk | grep -iA3 vga
there should be mention of "amdgpu" in the result. also recommended by friend AI what the "vulkaninfo --summary".
so much for a fools errand.
@ fwiw
Devuan 6 Excalibur Benchmark
https://www.passmark.com/baselines/V11/ … 2639353735
Hardinfo2 results - 9700X Generic System
Devuan 6 Excalibur - KDE on X11 -
https://sudden-bronze-ugdw17r5.edgeone.dev/
sorry for the interruption.
@chomwitt
the shortcut proposed should suffice for the task at hand;
here are some hardinfo2 result for comparision
------
hardinfo2
------
(result not so relevant for Devuan)
CPU Blowfish (Single-thread) 16x 5582.00 MHz 58.44|
CPU Blowfish (Multi-thread) 16x 5582.00 MHz 556.95 |
CPU Blowfish (Multi-core) 16x 5582.00 MHz 441.33
SysBench CPU (Single-thread) 16x 5582.00 MHz 6342.99
SysBench CPU (Multi-thread) 16x 5582.00 MHz 50505.06
(these probably more influenced by OpenSource Drivers)
funnily GPU drawing got values for RX 7600 in the realms of NV 4070TI
GPU Drawing
(AMD Radeon RX 7600 2454.93) < (NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070 Ti SUPER/PCIe/SSE2 2513.84)
and for GPU OpenGL Drawing came out one top?
(AMD Radeon RX 7600 4595.50) > (Radeon RX 7900 XTX 3512.29)
GPU Vulkan drawing not so fast
(AMD Radeon RX 7600 26607.16 ) < (AMD Radeon 8060S 43247.77)
Cache Memory
AMD Ryzen 7 9700X 163008.08|16x 5582.00 MHz
-------
@GlennW , thanks , yours got to be the new benchmark!
Found out i am still bit afraid of heights
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/common_cpus.html
@chomwitt you can use this shortcut
sudo ln -s /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libncurses.so.6 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libncurses.so.5have you tried installing the latest system drivers?
i reember found it difficult to find the proper driver packages for one NUC i bought 11th gen one time ] there should be one file that has them all, maybe you need a BIOS update;
uneducated guess, sorry.
ah, you got a ASUS NUC, that made it possibly more asiy to find the system driver. if anything, thats my guess.
one recent for
Devuan GNU/Linux 7 (freia/ceres)
https://www.passmark.com/baselines/V11/ … 2609603226
Search Baselines Matching:
OS: NA
you could do "sudo tasksel" and install from within xfce4 the cinnamon; maybe it got mixed up, and is missing some items; so you could clear it for you. with dual or more GUI things tend to becom messy, sometimes, unfortunately.
it may be irrelevant with the task at hand , but with captcha i normally click once twice forwared to get to the section where it asks me to pick from the 9 quadrants all several those that match the [requested] until finished.
i may be stupid but those other quesits where it asks me to select the quadrants where is a say a bike from a whole picture of 9 quadrants, i quite always dont succeed, it must be just too technical for me. (or i dont get the whole picture on those)