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I wonder how the poster will fair on the Slackware forums.
Poorly, if they expect there to be a preinstalled GUI tool for every administrative task and throw a "but mah desktop-iso" wobbly when people point them to CLI utilities and manual pages.
remember to make an effort to man up and actually answer the OP questions
Sure, I'll get right on that. As soon as somebody starts paying me to man the helpdesk.
In case you have somehow missed the memo, nobody here is obliged to be nice to you, answer your posts exactly the way you like, or try to help you at all for that matter.
Devuan is not obliged to provide you with anything either, let alone pander to your pedantic expectations, and the included software comes with no warranty of any kind. If you don't like it the way it is, either do something constructive about it or don't use it.
Throwing a tantrum over such trivial matters as covered in this thread is entirely on you. If you're going to behave that way, then I expect this community is better of without you anyway.
Sheesh, the entitlement of some people. All over an "alarming" lack of gnome-user-manager preinstalled FFS.
my dial-up internet did not allow it
I was on 33kbps dialup at the time, IIRC... And I had to fight for the phone line with a bunch of weirdos who wanted to use it to talk to people, of all things.
Waste of perfectly good bandwidth that, I mean I even set up an old 486 as a router so they could IRC at the same time.
in my opinion there are two views on the computer. Either he is a tool for work, or it is in itself the subject of this very work.
I don't really make that distinction TBH, at least not any more. You can effectively break any system if you try, binary or otherwise, and the same goes for, well, not breaking it so you can get work done.
Personally I prefer to spend the time up-front getting my machines how I want them, so I can get work done later without being distracted by all the annoyances I would otherwise encounter.
These days gentoo doesn't really require more maintenance than any other rolling-release... updates just take a bit longer and use more power.
This is v43.1 though, it's lighter & seems more responsive
I don't usually go for horror flicks myself, but if you're saying the sequel is even better...
I am out of here.
So long, and thanks for being todays entertainment.
Noxious attitude aside, surely I'm not the only one who finds amusement in this prima-donna wailing, gnashing of teeth, and claims of "existential issues" over a minor discrepancy in the installer and some random GNOME management tool not being installed by default.
Especially when none of this is really a problem if one were to, shock and horror, just use the CLI tools.
So you've never tried apt-build(8) then?
I wasn't being particularly serious, which I thought was obvious.
Of course one can build debian packages with custom flags, same as any other distro. It's just a lot easier to build the whole system that way when that's how it's intended to be installed in the first place.
FWIW, I once rolled my very own distro, with LFS and RPM. It was entertaining to be sure, and infinitely customisable... but once you try it the gentoo way with the gentoo tools, you realise just how powerful portage is.
I was converted in 2004 and I'm still running gentoo today, for a variety of excellent reasons... Ricing compiler flags isn't actually one of them though.
such WMs only way is unusual and uncomfortable. Or i am wrong?
The only way to find out if you will like dwm is to try dwm... With an open mind and a willingness to fiddle with it a bit.
I disabled the APT option to always install the recommended packages.
I've been doing that forever, but it's not something I'd suggest to new users since it tends to result in mysteriously missing/broken functionality in most "normal" desktop configurations.
That's not a problem if you're wiling to spend time playing which-package-provides-libfoo from time to time of course, but does require some familiarity with apt and the software in question.
As for metapackages... Most metapackages in Debian/Devuan pull in a ridiculous quantity of cruft IMO, and it's been that way for a long while.
it feels just like Gentoo
Heresy! Sacrilege! No binary distro compares to Gentoo, they can't even build world with -fomg-speed and -fbroken-math
I don't have a beowulf install to play with right now... But lynis appears to have very few dependencies, so it should be amenable to a simple local backport. That's far less likely to make a mess than trying to install the chimarea binary package anyway.
The real question is why... Is there actually some change that you need, or is it just "newer must be better"?
OTOH, you could just dist-upgrade to stable. You're going to sooner or later, and this might be a suitable excuse to get on with it.
Designing a User Interface is not an easy task. Seriously, they were taken care of by Microsoft back in the days of MS3xx.
To be fair, MS swiped most of their core GUI designs from Apple and Xerox to begin with.
I have no problem with copying UI designs, so long as they're good UI designs. Changing just to keep up with the latest cosmetic trend, or worse still just to be different... Yeah, that doesn't improve anything.
kde settings won't allow Capitals in usernames either
Egads, what's with all the fuss over this trivia? User management is an infrequent administrative task, just use the CLI.
TBH I don't get why one would want capitalisation in a username anyway, all it achieves is making it more difficult to type and easier to confuse... Which is probably why, since the early days of *NIX, 99% of usernames have been lower-case and nobody really cared.
If you want to add your real name with correct capitalisation and whatnot, there are dedicated fields in the user record for that stuff.
I know you don't like GNOME but you are in fact completely wrong. It's great.
My dislike for GNOME dates back to 1999 or thereabouts, when they replaced the lightning-fast (g)mc file manager with that abortion commonly known as "nautilus". I'm probably a bit biased.
it's nice to have a polished, professional desktop in which there is actually a design principle.
If the holy HIG is going to give us such wonders as CSDs and removal of global theming support, you can have it. All of it, i don't even want a lick.
I'm pretty sure there's a secret design principle behind KDE too, it's "make it optional and let the user decide".
In all honesty though, i have tried the GNOME 3... And I hated every second of it. I don't like the workflow, and I'm stubborn enough to expect my environment to conform to me, not the other way around...
Also the file-picker is a meme.
KDE on the other hand has enough options that i can turn off all the newfangled idiocy and get a traditional desktop with a minimum of fuss... Then probably fullscreen a terminal window and not really look at it for the rest of the day.
GNOME also tends to pull in all the other systemd/wayland/pulseaudio/networkmanager nu-linux crap, and if I didn't hate the design philosophy enough already that too would be a dealbreaker.
But that's probably a rant for a different thread.
Free software should be for everyone, everywhere to use and participate.
Indeed.
It's a personal matter, of course.
It's also obnoxious and irrelvevant to the topic at hand, of course.
A well-meaning dude walks into a bar free-software community to share his contribution...
Cue a bunch of meatheads dogpiling and turning the thread into a political flamewar, just because he happens to live in a country whose current politics they disagree with.
Politics be damned, some days i'm ashamed to be a member of this species.
And this garbage is exactly why i don't post here very often. Too many nutters with political and/or ideological axes to grind, and too may conspiracy wackos.
Anton started a Devuan discussion board for Russian speakers, that is all. More power to him for doing something far more constructive than you squabbling children are right now.
Dutch_Master in particular, please take your political bullshit someplace else. This is a technical board, not a soapbox.
To pick on just one sliver of the considerable nonsense in here: Why on earth would you want to disable filesystem checks?
They do nothing to general system responsiveness and we haven't had actual boot-time forced fscks for anything but "oh-shit-your-fs-is-fscked" scenarios since journalling became a thing... somewhere around 2001.
Fsck is fine, leave the poor thing alone.
So is cron for that matter. Cron is nice, and cron is useful. Cron uses about 2MB of memory, and unless you have something really dumb in your crontabs it won't do anything at all to performance.
Trinity DE and its much faster than default xfce de.
Color me not at all surprised. Almost anything is faster than the default XFCE desktop. KDE 3.x was awesome of course... but It's also pretty ancient now.
If you want to see a responsive DE though, what you really want is KDE 1.1. That's what my Pentium MMX machine runs, and it runs it swimmingly.
General performance tips: Avoid DEs. Avoid GTK3. If anyone or anything mentions GNOME or GTK4, panic.
Also 99% of things written in python/pygtk seem small on-disk, but run like a gut-shot pig compared to their C/C++ counterparts. It's a trap.
Pro-level performance on almost anything: Don't install a GUI at all. If you really must fondle a rodent, use a standalone window manager.
FWIW, I played a round of the "got a cheap decade-old laptop" game recently, and ya know what? A fully-functional (though akonadi-free) plasma install uses 200-300MB less memory than the refracta XFCE setup, and is noticeably more responsive. Got more knobs and shiny bits too.
I really have no idea why XFCE is Devuan's default desktop TBH, if I had to guess "gnome without systemd is too hard, so this is as close as we can get" is the best i have.
It sure ain't because it's fast.
RIP XFCE, the mouse got fat... Ate too many gnome libraries most likely.
Trivia: You used to get a whole GUI OS (including a web browser) in less bytes than most "modern" distros kernel + modules.
You also used to be able to fit a functional GNU/Linux system on a single 1.44MB floppy disk.
Wirth's law is all too real.
Have you ever actually tried it?
To follow up on that, I just installed chimaera on a thinkpad X230, from the default live image, with refracta...
My opinion remains unchanged - What a clunky, janky, unprofessional POS.
Random terminal windows and GTK dialogs spawning all over the screen, uncloseable windows, dialogs with no content... Then I cancelled the debconf for keyboard layout to see what would happen - and the thing just started copying the system anyway, with no further interaction or chance to back out.
Speaking of that, there's no "go back" in any of the questions at all. Seriously, I think I could write a better install process myself in zenity and bash.
Slackware had a better installer in 1999 FFS, it even such shockingly "modern" features as navigable menus and package selection.
Remind me how this disaster is an improvement over d-i again?
At least the default desktop configuration is almost sensible, though I could really do without all the networkmanager/pulseaudio/garbage-kit bloat TBH.
Aside, and a minor niggle to be sure, but why exactly do LARGER FONTS and SMALLER FONTS need priority placement on the desktop and their own icons? XFCE had a fine settings app last time I looked, and clearing redundant trash off the desktop really shouldn't be the very first activity after a clean install IMO.
Isn't choice the point of free software?
Actually it's... Freedom. Choice is just a side-effect of the "freedom to modify" bit.
Choice is, on the other hand, the reason I moved away from Debian, and the reason I'm steadily moving away from binary distros in general. Primarily, that's the choice to not install 500lbs of crap I don't want or use.
For example: Want to install ffmpeg just for CLI transcoding? Too bad, guess you'll need a bunch of X libraries, GLX stuff, fonts you'll never use, and vulkan headers (FFS) as well... Because Debian / Devuan compiles against every possible thing, and seems to be more and more aimed at desktop deployments by the day.
For another, have a look at the unholy mess in /etc on a "modern" binary distro, and ask yourself: How much of this do I use, and how much do I even know what it's for?
Frankly I find this all extremely annoying, and If I have to recompile a bunch of stuff just to get a simple, understandable OS without a heap of redundant kitchen-sink functionality and 50 abstraction layers for everything, I might as well just build the whole system from source to begin with.
Anyway, this is horribly off-topic. Maybe if the OP replies someday...
Have you ever actually tried it?
Somewhere around 2010, yeah, sure. I was aghast at the lack of questions and spent more time removing stuff later than it would have taken me to just do a netinstall to begin with.
It felt like a slightly janky desktop-centric toy for one-man remixes TBH, the defaults were not even remotely what I wanted, and a netinst image + rsync already served nicely for backups. So I've ignored it ever since.
Then again, I don't run Devuan on any desktops and I never have. I haven't used anything but netinstall for as long as I can remember, and I currently have exactly one Debian box with a GUI... And that's Etch on a K6-2.
So yeah, "easy" live desktop installers that don't ask enough questions aren't my thing, at all. I want my installers to ask me what I want to install (with verbosity and granularity), otherwise what's the point?
Wow, this is turning into an ordeal. Really not sure why, it should be as simple as:
apt install linux-headers-amd64 zfs-modules zfsutils
All three are metapackages, and should select linux-headers-{version}-{arch}, zfs-dkms, and zfsutils-linux respectively... Or at least they do on my minimal chimera install, with both recommends and suggests disabled.
Add
apt install zfs-zed
if you want event monitoring (you do),
apt install zfs-auto-snapshot
if you want automatic snapshotting from cron, and
apt install zfs-initramfs
if you want to be able to do root-on-zfs.
Aside, you might also prefer the 2.1.5 packages from chimera-backports, there have been some improvements...
Otherwise, yeah, full output needed to see why the zfs and spl modules are not being installed.
FWIW, I did have a bit of fun getting my filesystems mounted at boot after a beowulf -> chimaera upgrade, it would appear the init scripts for 2.0.3 and 2.1.5 are both kinda broken (WRT LSB depends and ordering), this commit puts things back how (IMO) they should be.
Refracta
On that note... Any particular reason we're moving to that (unmentionable, IME) thing instead of using the venerable debian-installer? I mean, we kinda have a serviceable wheel already, no?
Huh? apt-mark is included with apt, it's never been a separate package AFAIK.
cat /etc/devuan_version
chimaera
dpkg -S `which apt-mark`
apt: /usr/bin/apt-mark
Fringe browser labels Devuan a fringe OS...
Pot, meet kettle
If the site in question isn't running some pile of "browser check" javascript trash, you can probably cheat by just changing your user-agent...
Then again Palemoon is kinda garbage anyway, as is the general attitude of the developers.
Because deb.devuan.org failed to update due to an expired GPG key.
See this topic regarding expired keys, or the 50 bazillion general search hits regarding this kind of error on any number of Debian-based distros. This is why we read the "new and announcements" section, no?
You're running unstable with a bunch of third-party repos enabled, so surely you can read those errors and warings from apt just as well as I can too...
You also appear to have a number of duplicates and errors in your sources in general, but that's another matter.
Both screen and tmux are available from the repositories
And unavailable early in the boot process, the initrd, or by default on many minimal installs.
Shift+pgup is both ingrained muscle-memory and a lot less annoying (IMO) than the likes of vi-style keybinds, and screen is gratuitous bloat when all you want is a fully functional VT.
Console scrollback has been around forever, and it's one of the very first things that made me go "wow, this is way better" when transitioning from DOS.
Frankly this "everyone just uses the GUI (or laptop/phablet/whatever trendy disposable junk is FotM) these days" rubbish is getting extremely annoying. I for one use real VTs on a real PC every day, and have since the late '90s.
Now I' guess I'm just waiting for GNU/Linux to remove VTs altogether, make touchscreens mandatory, and replace all kernel output with inane spinning widgets and emojis.
I'm sure all the windows refugees will just love it, since there'd be no need to learn to read and no keyboard to clean the drool out of.
a VT does NOT have a mouse
apt install gpm
nor history support
Used to have scrollback, removed recently (Grrr) because "nobody was using it" (which is bollocks).
Patches exist to restore this functionality, but Debian/Devuan does not include them.
$ tty/dev/pts/0
Psuedo-terminal virtual filesystem, used by GUI terminal emulators. Predates systemd by about a decade.
Well that was quick.
We have a weiner, and really, I should have seen it coming...
Via auditd (yeah, it's better than fnotifystat):
proctitle=/usr/bin/python3 /usr/bin/systemctl list-units --full --all
type=PATH msg=audit(11/06/22 05:16:39.046:1736) : item=1 name=/var/run/samba/nmbd.pid inode=41571 dev=00:15 mode=file,644 ouid=root ogid=root rdev=00:00 nametype=NORMAL cap_fp=none cap_fi=none cap_fe=0 cap_fver=0
type=PATH msg=audit(11/06/22 05:16:39.046:1736) : item=0 name=/var/run/samba/ inode=16650 dev=00:15 mode=dir,755 ouid=root ogid=root rdev=00:00 nametype=PARENT cap_fp=none cap_fi=none cap_fe=0 cap_fver=0
type=CWD msg=audit(11/06/22 05:16:39.046:1736) : cwd=/root
type=SYSCALL msg=audit(11/06/22 05:16:39.046:1736) : arch=x86_64 syscall=openat success=yes exit=3 a0=0xffffff9c a1=0x7f257ac19050 a2=O_WRONLY|O_CREAT|O_TRUNC|O_CLOEXEC a3=0x1b6 items=2 ppid=16701 pid=16702 auid=steve uid=root gid=root euid=root suid=root fsuid=root egid=root sgid=root fsgid=root tty=pts2 ses=16 comm=systemctl exe=/usr/bin/python3.7 subj==unconfined key=rundir
Sure enough:
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Jun 11 05:16 /var/run/samba/nmbd.pid
And it's not even some dodgy crap I backported myself this time:
Package systemctl:
i 1.4.4147-1~bpo10+1 oldstable-backports 200
This particular footgun was installed to satisfy some crappy postinst stuff in the packages from zmrepo (which actually works fine without systemd but was clearly packaged by a muppet).
I thought it would be relatively safe in that context as all the postinst does is a 'systemctl status zoneminder' and nothing else should use it (this is Devuan after all, and we don't use systemd, right? RIGHT?)... But if it's on the system it looks like it gets called by a bunch of other things too - in this case, somewhere downstream of a 'service apache2 reload'.
Said zmrepo package was only installed because there's nothing for beowulf... Which is odd and kinda annoying, as there is a backport for ascii.
Anyone care to speculate why a command that is supposed to simply list units is stomping all over everything? Or why there is a loaded footgun in the devuan repos without a depends !sysvinit safety catch?
Conclusions:
1) That standalone systemctl package is an extremely nasty trap. I don't know why it's nuking my pidfiles and I don't really speak python, but I might have a look later. For now it goes in the naughty corner where it belongs.
2) Installing zoneminder on this box was probably a bad idea to begin with. It's nominally a mailserver (with roundcube webmail via apache), but it had disk space to burn, a webserver already installed, and it was convenient at the time. 'twas intended to be a temporary solution, but you know how that usually goes.
Oh FFS. Just when I decide to let it cook for a bit...
Ignore dovecot for the minute, that's behaving itself right now. smbd and nmbd on the other hand:
Are running right now, and working fine.
Have a PID file...
But that PID file is empty. I know it contained a valid PID ~2 days ago, because I checked after I had to restart it.
The smbd and nmbd processes are ~2 days old (Jun 8 17:26), but the modification date on the PID file is 'Jun 10 17:49'.
Grepping the logs for that time and date (and an hour before) reveals... Nothing of any interest.
Sure enough, the init scripts can't stop those services.
Killing them manually and restarting with the init scripts writes out the correct PID, and all is well again.
And it gets better, it's not just dovecot and samba, they're only the canaries:
# find /var/run/ -iname '*.pid' -empty | xargs ls -la
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Jun 10 17:49 /var/run/apcupsd.pid
-rw------- 1 root root 0 Jun 10 17:49 /var/run/fail2ban/fail2ban.pid
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Jun 10 17:49 /var/run/php/php7.4-fpm.pid
-rw-r--r-- 1 redis redis 0 Jun 10 17:49 /var/run/redis/redis-server.pid
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Jun 10 17:49 /var/run/samba/nmbd.pid
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 Jun 10 17:49 /var/run/spamd.pid
What the? Seriously? How did I miss that?
So it's not the init scripts at fault, It's been aliens all along.
I think it's also safe to say my initial statement that /var/run/dovecot/master.pid was missing is incorrect. I expect I looked after I had already run the dovecot init script, which of course fell through to that rm -rf on account of having no PID to work with.
I can't exactly prove it right now, but I bet you a cookie the pidfile was present but empty like all the others.
I'm still none the wiser as to what's fingering my files behind my back, and it's high time I went to sleep right now. But hey, data point is data point.
If you have any idea what that data point points to... I'm all ears.
I just sicced fnotifystat onto /var/run/, so let's see if it catches anyone...