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#1 2022-11-18 22:23:34

devuanuser
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 40  

Devuan: Existential issues.

DEVUAN VERSION
chimaera
SYSTEM:
Linux version 5.10.0-19-amd64 (debian-kernel@lists.debian.org) (gcc-10 (Debian 10.2.1-6) 10.2.1 20210110, GNU ld (GNU Binutils for Debian) 2.35.2) #1 SMP Debian 5.10.149-2 (2022-10-21)
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Trying Devuan again after about 4 years, and it is definitely an improvement.
Two years ago it was really problematic and i moved to MX on my servers as MX at least still boots sysV, but unfortunately still has systemD for other tasks than booting.
As it is time to upgrade my rackservers which still runs systemDUH, systemD bugs  makes Devuan or equiv non systemD distros priority.
The amount of garbage that the ever encroaching systemD introduces are just mind boggling.
I need to permanently get rid of the nonsense.

However:
I have some problems with "devuan_chimaera_4.0.0_amd64_desktop"

1) Installing using the LIVE version "devuan_chimaera_4.0.2_amd64_desktop-live" I can create capitalized user names great !!
However installing "devuan_chimaera_4.0.0_amd64_desktop" , suddenly ONLY lower case usernames are allowed. This makes it incompatible with my existing filesystems and useraccounts and loads of scripts. This is not acceptable.
So why the difference between the two versions of install media with one allowing uppercase usernames and the other not ?? Seems odd and inconsistent.
MX as an example switched hard back to allowing uppercase usernames as they realize restricting to lowercase chase away server based users.
Fine i can do the useradd and configure the files to allow uppercase, but the user-config interfaces makes permissions and templates and such really transparent and I prefer that.

2) Trying to create new users in the  "devuan_chimaera_4.0.0_amd64_desktop" installation yields the alarming state that; There is no "user-config" program available to add and alter users.

Unless it is hidden in some ungodly place that I could not find ok, but ls |grepping the /usr/bin for "user" gives me no executables.

What on earth ?   ... and why was it left out of the install. This is a serious oversight unless  I miss something.

Devuan is critical important to Linux and I support you 100% in light of systemDUH, but sheesh, !!!!  The two basic incidents above scares away any person managing rackservers.

or ... did I overlook something and my criticism is unfounded?

I have way more anomalies I can list, but let's address the two I listed above first. Maybe there is a good explanation for this, as i didnt use Devuan since 2019.

Last edited by devuanuser (2022-11-18 22:48:18)

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#2 2022-11-18 22:47:33

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 778  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

So why not look for programs where they are rather than looking at some arbitrary place and then complaining when they aren't there?

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#3 2022-11-18 22:50:04

devuanuser
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 40  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

And exactly where are they and what are they called. ?

Rather be specific than add more clouds.

There is NO User-manager program in the menu at all..... so I must guess right ??

Could not find it in MENU from desktop
NOT in /usr/local/bin
NOT in /usr/bin
NOT in /sbin
NOT in /bin

Path says all that is left is "games" that I did not try
bash: /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/games:/usr/games:

or does it go by somer other program name than *user* ?

This is the desktop version not the server version install.
For a desktop distro I would expect a user-config program rather than to revert to the server, adduser deluser newusers useradd userdel usermod  secfacta.

Last edited by devuanuser (2022-11-18 23:22:23)

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#4 2022-11-18 23:21:29

GlennW
Member
Registered: 2019-07-18
Posts: 298  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

Package name... adduser*.deb

I have not had to do this, but, and just in case you didn't know...

Would editing this line sort it.. ?

the file /etc/adduser.conf

# check user and group names also against this regular expression.
# Default: NAME_REGEX="^[a-z][-a-z0-9_]*\$?$"
#NAME_REGEX="^[a-z][-a-z0-9_]*\$?$"

I don't run servers, (so) you probably already know this stuff.

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#5 2022-11-18 23:25:28

devuanuser
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 40  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

Thanks GlennW
the point is, this is a desktop version not a server distro that is installed therefore it must definately have a user-manager gui program. A desktop user is generally not supposed to do server work.
If it was the server version then you would use

adduser deluser newusers useradd userdel usermod

to configure users.
I want to use the desktop version as the user-manager apps have great permission templates that takes forever to set up by hand. Usually there are over 20 permissions all different for specific user accounts and is a pain to set up by hand using adduser deluser newusers useradd userdel usermod addgroup etc.

Furthermore

apt install user-manager 

is NOT in the repository.
in fact

apt install *user* 

Yields absolutely no configuration program in the entire Devuan repository.
I will have to install from outside the Devuan Dstro repositories, which is really an odd requirement for something this crucial.

I added that to my previous post before seeing your post.

Last edited by devuanuser (2022-11-18 23:35:38)

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#6 2022-11-18 23:48:03

GlennW
Member
Registered: 2019-07-18
Posts: 298  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

ok, fair enough.

There is a package called ...

accountsservice*.deb

query and manipulate user account information

in my repo, but I am using daedalus(5) not chimaera(4)...
but the names should be similar.

I havent used it, It's just me here on these machines. :-)

hope this helps.

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#7 2022-11-18 23:57:07

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 778  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

@devuanuser: I'm sure you have a reason for not looking into /usr/sbin/

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#8 2022-11-19 01:59:30

devuanuser
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 40  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

ralph,

Of course I did, all you find are the command line userconfigs as i stated and listed them clearly in my previous answer to you and the cli user configs are not what I am after. Maybe read ?

That is

 # ls |grep -i user
adduser
deluser
newusers
useradd
userdel
usermod

That is unless it goes by some other incognito moniker ?
I am out of guesses. maybe it lurks in /dev/null  ?? I wont be surprised.
You make a lot of counter claims but never backed up by data.

So again,
But, to find what exactly in /usr/sbin?
And, even more importantly why is there no user config gui application in the menu system for a Desktop Install ?

Last edited by devuanuser (2022-11-19 02:06:25)

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#9 2022-11-19 02:11:45

devuanuser
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 40  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

GlennW wrote:

ok, fair enough.
There is a package called ...
accountsservice*.deb

query and manipulate user account information

hope this helps.

Hi Glenn,
AccountsService is a D-Bus service for accessing the list of user accounts and information attached to those accounts, so it wont be a gui for adding and configuring users.
I installed it anyway, but it is clearly not for that purpose.

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#10 2022-11-19 02:14:54

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 778  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

It's vaguely interesting that you want to whine so incessantly about what you have and haven't installed.
Please go on.

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#11 2022-11-19 02:21:25

devuanuser
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 40  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

ralph.ronnquist wrote:

It's vaguely interesting that you want to whine so incessantly about what you have and haven't installed.
Please go on.

I try a last time.
Give factual answers please and not just innuendo and vague opinions.

1) Why is there no gui-based User config in Devian Desktop.
You claim there is ... please provide program name and directory
2) Why does the Live version allow capitalized user names but the Desktop version only allows lowercase.

Thanks

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#12 2022-11-19 02:56:28

ralph.ronnquist
Administrator
From: Clifton Hill, Victoria, AUS
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 778  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

1) Afaik there is no "Devuan Desktop", and anyhow even if there were, the intent of developer choices are not always documented and readily available.

Most likely you are referring to the Desktop that you have installed with the desktop installer iso, and therefore that question might partly be answered by introspection.

2) Again, the intent of the developer choices underpinning the behaviour of "the Live version" or "the Desktop version" (i.e. "Your Desktop version") are not documented and readily available.

I also don't know what you mean in the claim that the one version allows something and the other doesn't;  presumably both are Devuan GNU/Linux systems of the same kernel version? Therefore they would offer the same potentials with respect to names of users.

Perhaps you mean that the programs you use in the two cases for adding users impose different constraints on their inputs?

E.g., if you would use adduser for adding users then it imposes constraints as documented in its man page.

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#13 2022-11-19 03:58:59

devuanuser
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 40  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

With all due respect.
You dont seem to want to answer constructively.
Everything has to be dragged out of you.
Just babble, looking for righteous argument.

First of all, the Devuan iso is called
devuan_chimaera_4.0.0_amd64_desktop.iso

So there, it clearly says DESKTOP version. can you read?

Fine I assume then from your answer that there is no user-manager gui installed at all and will not be.
It seems to be very difficult for you to state that fact as you prefer to be  vague for posts on end.

That is ok, I will just install one from debian.

Secondly. The stupidity between the live version and the direct install versions as they are packaged is obvious.
One allows upper case and the other only allows lower case usernames.

I will be blunt, the same way as you have been of the bat.

You clearly have no clue about the workings of Devuan or the packaging anomalies.
If you are the packager, it would explain absolutely everything.

Cheers, no need to try and converse with you.
A random mole on my lawn would be easier to get a straight answer from.

Last edited by devuanuser (2022-11-19 04:00:13)

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#14 2022-11-19 07:35:25

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 39  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

As I understand Linux, you are looking in the wrong place. smile
The GUI is provided by DE.
I use Trinity and it has literally everything to configure, from user management, sysinit system services to interface language and package management.
The same is in KDE5, probably in others.

Regards.

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#15 2022-11-19 09:02:40

GlennW
Member
Registered: 2019-07-18
Posts: 298  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

devuanuser wrote:
GlennW wrote:

ok, fair enough.
There is a package called ...
accountsservice*.deb

query and manipulate user account information

hope this helps.

Hi Glenn,
AccountsService is a D-Bus service for accessing the list of user accounts and information attached to those accounts, so it wont be a gui for adding and configuring users.
I installed it anyway, but it is clearly not for that purpose.

KDE/Plasma has user controls in systemsettings, but only lets me choose admin or user.

should be able to buy one somewhere.

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#16 2022-11-19 09:56:11

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 245  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

devuan_chimaera_4.0.0_amd64_desktop.iso

This .iso is for installing desktop systems, you get a selection of WMs & DEs; which you choose is up to you; & your 'needed' program is down to the DE you choose.

Most people just use the command line to add & remove users, it's been done that way since before GUIs, even I, as just a desktop user, use the command line tools when needed.

If you need a server distro then use one, & add a DE to it, it's that simple.

Devuan is just Debian without systemd & it takes a lot of work to remove it - we appreciate the teams efforts.

Last edited by Camtaf (2022-11-19 10:00:17)

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#17 2022-11-19 10:12:27

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,730  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

For a user accounts GUI install the gnome-system-tools package and run users-admin.

Nothing wrong with adduser though, any claims to the contrary are clearly nonsense.


"Who's the idiot in charge?" — ralph.ronnquist

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#18 2022-11-19 11:47:17

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,107  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

Hello:

devuanuser wrote:

... With all due respect.
... mole on my lawn would be ...

I have followed this thread on and off, more than anything out of curiosity and to see just how far it would go.

There's not much to add to the more than suitable/correct answers you have received, save this:

I take personal exception to the tone in your posts, which I consider both unwarranted and absolutely out of place.
I would appreciate your showing more respect to those who volunteer their time and efforts to keep both Devuan and this site working.

I'm sure my words represent the opinion of an overwhelming majority here at Dev1, so please do take them into account.

And stop behaving like a five year old.

Best,

A.

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#19 2022-11-19 12:03:15

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 177  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

+1^


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#20 2022-11-19 13:04:09

Evenson
Member
Registered: 2022-09-08
Posts: 19  
Website

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

Devuan has a way to go before being a turnkey buntu installation, it does require some prior knowledge all of which is very well documented at devuan.org.


"A stop job is running..." - SystemD

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#21 2022-11-19 18:33:52

devuanuser
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 40  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

Altoid wrote:

Hello:

I have followed this thread on and off, more than anything out of curiosity and to see just how far it would go.


Well.. just answering my questions directly would avoid all this.
Apparently you are more interested in observing the fight than just to answer the 2 questions I posted.

This shows the petty corrupt attitude of the Devuan UG management and it's followers.

No interest to even consider the blazing username capitalization discrepancy between two iso versions.

I am out of here. No reason to entertain a bunch of wannabe Sages who refuse to directly answer questions. See for example the first response to my original post and ask yourself if that is the way to treat a user. ?

Read the answers from GlenW.
Learn from him how to try and solve a problem constructively

I will use alternative non-systemD distros. I'm done with Devuan

Good day, and I sincerely hope the corruption will be sorted out.

Last edited by devuanuser (2022-11-19 18:36:02)

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#22 2022-11-19 18:56:03

andyprough
Member
Registered: 2019-10-19
Posts: 271  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

devuanuser wrote:

I am out of here. ...

I will use alternative non-systemD distros. I'm done with Devuan

Since this was an "Existential Issue", does this failure mean that mankind will all now perish?

When future races look back and write our history, they will say, "humanity had a pretty good run, but was destroyed by two competing versions of the Devuan installer ISO failing to agree on capitalization options".

Not quite as dramatic or heroic as "a giant meteor destroying all dinosaurs", but probably appropriate for our silly race to die out in a very silly and forgettable manner.


I visit the Dev1Galaxy using 3 different browsers: 1) links2 in a terminal; 2) self-compiled Pale Moon; 3) Mull from the F-Droid store. If you want Pale Moon with no dbus dependency or with sndio support, I can help.

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#23 2022-11-19 21:22:23

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,730  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

devuanuser wrote:

I will use alternative non-systemD distros

I think you'll find it's spelled "systemd". A surprising mistake for somebody so obsessed with capitalisations...


"Who's the idiot in charge?" — ralph.ronnquist

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#24 2022-11-19 21:50:08

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 177  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

devuanuser wrote:

I am out of here.

So long, and thanks for being todays entertainment.

Noxious attitude aside, surely I'm not the only one who finds amusement in this prima-donna wailing, gnashing of teeth, and claims of "existential issues" over a minor discrepancy in the installer and some random GNOME management tool not being installed by default. 
Especially when none of this is really a problem if one were to, shock and horror, just use the CLI tools. lol


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#25 2022-11-19 23:03:00

devuanuser
Member
Registered: 2019-03-14
Posts: 40  

Re: Devuan: Existential issues.

No problem.
Good riddance.

Once you kids grow up, remember to make an effort to man up and actually answer the OP questions

Bye.

Last edited by devuanuser (2022-11-19 23:03:22)

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