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#1 2020-05-15 21:09:54

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 231  

The point of Devuan?

You know, I've been thinking (ouch!). It seems to me that Devuan, while still a relatively small project, is attracting more and more new people all the time, and many of them are perhaps unclear as to what Devuan is. In fact, some people seem to assume that Devuan is the answer to their personal Hopes and Dreams or something. A Rorschach test, as it were.

When I first encountered Devuan years ago, it seemed pretty clear: it was a project to create and maintain a systemd-free Debian. That's really all I wanted - pretty straightforward. But as the time went on, and I spent time on the forum and IRC, it became clear that different folks were forming rather different ideas as to what was the point of Devuan. There seems to be a contingent that feels that Devuan is/ought to be a super-minimalist system, and those who feel that it should be 'libre' to the max. Etc., etc.

Then come the SJW types. Devuan's association with Dyne I think might have contributed to this...

Dyne seems to be a very 'socially conscious' outfit (for lack of a better term). There is definitely a SJW vibe there, and some of the statements made by Jaromil and others strengthen that impression. Sometimes at the expense of the technology, such as the time Jaromil said that he didn't care if the repos were down for months at a time so long as the workers felt mellow and unstressed and fulfilled (or something - I don't remember the exact words). Now, as admirable as that might be, some folks/shops might not be real comfortable with that sentiment.

But others resonate with that, and next thing you know, you have folks like silver2 coming on trying to remake the IRC channel to his liking, appearing most thoughtful and gentle, and then flouncing off in a bitter cloud of invective when he receives pushback. To me, his proposals sounded like control-freakery, but whatever.

Me, all I ever wanted was a systemd-free Debian. That's really the point of Devuan, right?

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#2 2020-05-17 04:19:51

wdq
Member
Registered: 2018-03-15
Posts: 55  

Re: The point of Devuan?

Yes my opinion is that devuan is a systemd-free debian and much more .
Just looking at other distro's you can see how gnome is getting more and more space, memory and bugs all I wanted was a system that just works when you see the problems you get with the damned systemd you just say thank you devuan.
Even if I am still at my begining of creating and programing I am very happy that devuan has a great community here .
I was not a Irc person but I will start joining the channel and see what is the atmosphere there , all I can say is that on this forums is all perfect

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#3 2020-05-17 06:56:28

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 144  

Re: The point of Devuan?

Yes, the point of Devuan was and remains to provide people a systemd-free Debian system. And IMO it's best for the project to stay as close as possible to that mantra. For me, all I care about is having a comprehensive, easy-to-install systemd-free apt-based Linux system for everyday use that's not just easy to install but also use, maintain and update. And as I have ab-so-lute-ly zero interest in playing personal politics I tend to stay away from the 'social' aspect of this by'n large friendly community, although as and where I can I'm more then happy to help out.

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#4 2020-05-17 13:12:35

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,570  

Re: The point of Devuan?

Yeah, our primary goal is to provide systemd-free debian. For those who want minimalist or libre or some other combination of packages, configs or whatever, there are derivative distros that fulfill some of these needs, and there are several ways of making your own, and there's a community of people already making their own who will offer ideas and advice and will help you solve problems you run into.

That brings us to a secondary goal - to accomplish the first goal with the least amount of work. We have a team of around a dozen people to keep up with the hundreds of debian developers. All are volunteers. We like to keep it simple and easy wherever possible.

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#5 2020-06-26 11:08:59

Shadow_I
Member
From: München
Registered: 2020-06-26
Posts: 1  
Website

Re: The point of Devuan?

In my opinion a Linux distro is needed which is easy to maintain, so no systemd, no bloatware. Too many packages tend to grow fat and slow. Programming should be done with speed in mind.  And if there are problems, I want ASCII log files and not DB held errors. Also I want ASCII configuration files and not a registry-like DB.
I hope Devuan will achieve this. In my opinion Debian took the wrong path.
I will try Devuan now on my systems: Servers and desktops.
Just my 5 Ct, Shadow_I

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#6 2020-06-26 11:15:28

larsH
Member
Registered: 2020-05-05
Posts: 85  

Re: The point of Devuan?

Hi

Welcome
I am sure you will find what you want in Devuan

Have a nice day
Lars H

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#7 2020-06-26 13:52:02

Tatwi
Member
From: Canada
Registered: 2018-10-24
Posts: 31  
Website

Re: The point of Devuan?

sgage wrote:

Me, all I ever wanted was a systemd-free Debian. That's really the point of Devuan, right?

That's all I want.

Debian is the root of many distros, because it's such a stable base that is easy to add layers of customization onto until one reaches their desired results. Want minimal? Start with a netinstall base system and add only what you want - heck, even remove some stuff after first boot if you'd like. Want a Ubuntu clone? Well, that's possible too with some effort. And anything in between. That doesn't mean it's going to be easy for new people, but Debian has never been easy for new people; If you want "easy" or specific to your personal needs/desires, you should use something else.  That's the entire reason why derivative distros exist.

Debian is pretty cool, but it was cooler without Systemd, hence Devuan. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.

----

That said, obviously the direction and oversight of Debian has changed, else we wouldn't be here, so I think it would make sense if the spirit and direction of Devuan was the same as Debian's was back in the days of Wheezy and earlier. For instance, if the next version of Debian was entirely based on Snap packages, I think that a Devuan version of that would go over like a lead balloon with most of us. I like the standard library/binary/file management system of Linux, it's kinda what makes GNU/Linux, well GNU/Linux, to me anyway. So if new Debian did away with it and Devuan followed suit, because "Devuan is Debian without Systemd", then that I guess would be the end of my use of either project. Not for some philosophical reasons, just because container madness is not what I want from a GNU/Linux system.

But what I want doesn't matter; Devuan is Debian without Systemd.

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#8 2020-06-29 15:03:53

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 7  

Re: The point of Devuan?

I first got into Devuan two years ago when there was talk of non-Systemd distros in the market. Having used GNU/Linux Mint 18.3 (the last one to allow "some" sort of init choice), I kept waiting for the right moment to jump right in. I tried Devuan when ASCII was out, but I had problems with metapackages (i.e. removing SLiM affects essential system functions, such as UDisks), so I left it alone and went back to my daily driver. Come Beowulf, it FINALLY showed promise, but I still didn't quite feel right with it.

That's when I'd heard that a Devuan spin by the name of Refracta existed, so I honestly gave it a go. I was surprised how lightweight it was, and the necessary drivers were provided to me in the form of binaries (I definitely needed those for my AMD GPU). On top of that, its default sound drivers shipped with ALSA (instead of PulseAudio, which I can't quite wrap my head around for such a non-Systemd distro to use as default). Even better is that you get to create your own live installer with ease.

After spending all of yesterday tweaking my Refracta system to how I see fit, I can safely say that this will tide me by for a really long time. Surprised how stable it is, and it's superior to other non-Systemd champions Artix GNU/Linux, MX GNU/Linux,  and Void GNU/Linux.

So, to sum it up, the "point" of using Devuan is to get away from Red Hat and Poettering bollocks by ways of Systemd, PulseAudio, and other such rubbish. Canonical putting the final nail in the coffin was when they announced Snap. Well, at least GNU/Linux Mint's developers had enough common sense to reject that, but it looks like they will continue to use Systemd, even on GNU/Linux Mint Debian Edition (here's their perfect chance to join forces with Devuan and usher in the best of both worlds).

Last edited by brocashelm (2020-06-29 15:33:19)

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#9 2020-06-29 22:26:00

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 231  

Re: The point of Devuan?

brocashelm wrote:

I first got into Devuan two years ago when there was talk of non-Systemd distros in the market. Having used GNU/Linux Mint 18.3 (the last one to allow "some" sort of init choice), I kept waiting for the right moment to jump right in. I tried Devuan when ASCII was out, but I had problems with metapackages (i.e. removing SLiM affects essential system functions, such as UDisks), so I left it alone and went back to my daily driver. Come Beowulf, it FINALLY showed promise, but I still didn't quite feel right with it.

That's when I'd heard that a Devuan spin by the name of Refracta existed, so I honestly gave it a go. I was surprised how lightweight it was, and the necessary drivers were provided to me in the form of binaries (I definitely needed those for my AMD GPU). On top of that, its default sound drivers shipped with ALSA (instead of PulseAudio, which I can't quite wrap my head around for such a non-Systemd distro to use as default). Even better is that you get to create your own live installer with ease.

After spending all of yesterday tweaking my Refracta system to how I see fit, I can safely say that this will tide me by for a really long time. Surprised how stable it is, and it's superior to other non-Systemd champions Artix GNU/Linux, MX GNU/Linux,  and Void GNU/Linux.

So, to sum it up, the "point" of using Devuan is to get away from Red Hat and Poettering bollocks by ways of Systemd, PulseAudio, and other such rubbish. Canonical putting the final nail in the coffin was when they announced Snap. Well, at least GNU/Linux Mint's developers had enough common sense to reject that, but it looks like they will continue to use Systemd, even on GNU/Linux Mint Debian Edition (here's their perfect chance to join forces with Devuan and usher in the best of both worlds).

The stated purpose of the Devuan Project from the get-go was to produce a systemd-free Debian. That's all. They mostly use the Debian repos and general system of meta-stuff except for those packages that absolutely needed to be forked to work without systemd. A lot of that is pretty tricky infrastructure/plumbing type stuff. They do not have an army of developers - what they have done so far is incredible, and I fear the job doesn't get easier going forward...

All the other minimalism and such that people project upon it is just that - their projection. Devuan encourages derivatives, so you get things like Refracta and others, which is great. But Devuan has done really tricky stuff just to get a systemd-free Debian, and that's their mission, and their plate is pretty full. That was the point of my original post to start off this thread.

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#10 2020-06-30 15:06:28

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 7  

Re: The point of Devuan?

sgage wrote:
brocashelm wrote:

I first got into Devuan two years ago when there was talk of non-Systemd distros in the market. Having used GNU/Linux Mint 18.3 (the last one to allow "some" sort of init choice), I kept waiting for the right moment to jump right in. I tried Devuan when ASCII was out, but I had problems with metapackages (i.e. removing SLiM affects essential system functions, such as UDisks), so I left it alone and went back to my daily driver. Come Beowulf, it FINALLY showed promise, but I still didn't quite feel right with it.

That's when I'd heard that a Devuan spin by the name of Refracta existed, so I honestly gave it a go. I was surprised how lightweight it was, and the necessary drivers were provided to me in the form of binaries (I definitely needed those for my AMD GPU). On top of that, its default sound drivers shipped with ALSA (instead of PulseAudio, which I can't quite wrap my head around for such a non-Systemd distro to use as default). Even better is that you get to create your own live installer with ease.

After spending all of yesterday tweaking my Refracta system to how I see fit, I can safely say that this will tide me by for a really long time. Surprised how stable it is, and it's superior to other non-Systemd champions Artix GNU/Linux, MX GNU/Linux,  and Void GNU/Linux.

So, to sum it up, the "point" of using Devuan is to get away from Red Hat and Poettering bollocks by ways of Systemd, PulseAudio, and other such rubbish. Canonical putting the final nail in the coffin was when they announced Snap. Well, at least GNU/Linux Mint's developers had enough common sense to reject that, but it looks like they will continue to use Systemd, even on GNU/Linux Mint Debian Edition (here's their perfect chance to join forces with Devuan and usher in the best of both worlds).

The stated purpose of the Devuan Project from the get-go was to produce a systemd-free Debian. That's all. They mostly use the Debian repos and general system of meta-stuff except for those packages that absolutely needed to be forked to work without systemd. A lot of that is pretty tricky infrastructure/plumbing type stuff. They do not have an army of developers - what they have done so far is incredible, and I fear the job doesn't get easier going forward...

All the other minimalism and such that people project upon it is just that - their projection. Devuan encourages derivatives, so you get things like Refracta and others, which is great. But Devuan has done really tricky stuff just to get a systemd-free Debian, and that's their mission, and their plate is pretty full. That was the point of my original post to start off this thread.

...and Devuan does it pretty well. I was surprised how responsive it was without garbage code. I wasn't originally a Debian user, but I could only imagine how much more excited I would've been at the time when Devuan was fairly recent.

I also say that Devuan is the only distro using APT that has a promising future ahead, whereas other Debian bases might fall short on snappiness. So, even that alone is reason enough to back Devuan. They are pretty serious about init choice, which I think is far more amplified than any other distro not using Systemd. The more vocal, the better. That's how you change things (for the better).

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#11 2020-07-08 17:14:30

Digit
Member
Registered: 2017-02-20
Posts: 1  

Re: The point of Devuan?

A systemd free Debian.  Yup. 
A Debian not taking that path of Lennartware.
But how much of the rest of Debian comes along?  Where (as one diasporan pointed as their reason to still prefer Debian) is the social contract?  ... Which I think just goes to satirically highlight how undermined that social contract is, given the direction taken and need of remedy by a fork.  Gave me more confidence in Devuan. 

As for what else others see in it, and consider it should be... to me it seems much simpler when not trying to grasp tight on some narrow definition of purpose of existence, and instead allow it to be many things to many people.  Just like Debian is/was.

Lets not get caught up in what it is to me, as what it should be to everybody else.

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#12 2020-07-08 20:01:50

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 231  

Re: The point of Devuan?

"Lets not get caught up in what it is to me, as what it should be to everybody else."

Exactly. and let's not get caught up in 'it really needs to implement/include these features and defaults that I think are best'.

Devuan is intended to be used as the base for derivatives, and many are springing up, with different approaches to features and minimalism, etc. This is a very good thing!

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#13 2020-07-09 04:16:01

LambOfNothing
Member
Registered: 2017-10-08
Posts: 7  

Re: The point of Devuan?

sgage wrote:

You know, I've been thinking (ouch!). It seems to me that Devuan, while still a relatively small project, is attracting more and more new people all the time, and many of them are perhaps unclear as to what Devuan is. In fact, some people seem to assume that Devuan is the answer to their personal Hopes and Dreams or something. A Rorschach test, as it were.

When I first encountered Devuan years ago, it seemed pretty clear: it was a project to create and maintain a systemd-free Debian. That's really all I wanted - pretty straightforward. But as the time went on, and I spent time on the forum and IRC, it became clear that different folks were forming rather different ideas as to what was the point of Devuan. There seems to be a contingent that feels that Devuan is/ought to be a super-minimalist system, and those who feel that it should be 'libre' to the max. Etc., etc.

Then come the SJW types. Devuan's association with Dyne I think might have contributed to this...

Dyne seems to be a very 'socially conscious' outfit (for lack of a better term). There is definitely a SJW vibe there, and some of the statements made by Jaromil and others strengthen that impression. Sometimes at the expense of the technology, such as the time Jaromil said that he didn't care if the repos were down for months at a time so long as the workers felt mellow and unstressed and fulfilled (or something - I don't remember the exact words). Now, as admirable as that might be, some folks/shops might not be real comfortable with that sentiment.

But others resonate with that, and next thing you know, you have folks like silver2 coming on trying to remake the IRC channel to his liking, appearing most thoughtful and gentle, and then flouncing off in a bitter cloud of invective when he receives pushback. To me, his proposals sounded like control-freakery, but whatever.

Me, all I ever wanted was a systemd-free Debian. That's really the point of Devuan, right?

I find it best not to contextualize technical endeavors in the language of morality. I've never considered Devuan or Dyne as necessarily SJW-driven, more so that their developers design and act with a socio-political emphasis that is much more unobjectionable than say, the monopolistic endeavors of systemd or the monetary incentives of Windows/Apple. From the perspective of those involved in these projects, they are equally as forward-thinking and ethical as members in this community. Whether or not they're totally delusional, is neither here nor there.

The emphasis of Devuan has always been hammered home as a systemd-free distribution upholding the tenants of Unix philosophy and init freedom, but I find that the value of this project and similar projects, is in its mounted antagonism as an entity that refuses to "bend the knee" in a space that seems to be doing so to a monopolistic design concept with proven flaws and detrimental long term effects. Having a space that acts as a counterbalance keeps the Linux sphere open and from being simply braindead as to the other side of technical arguments.

Last edited by LambOfNothing (2020-07-09 04:18:09)

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