OpenBSD

GNUser · 2018-12-20 04:03:54

GNU/Linux is changing, and not for the better. Think systemd, linux development process caving to political correctness, Microsoft infiltrating the Linux Foundation, Debian considering dropping SysVinit support. There is much to be worried about. This video is funny but also quite depressing:
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments … s_forever/

Devuan is my favorite OS and I hope it lives forever, but if Debian and/or the linux kernel implode...then what? Until recently I never even considered BSD but lately I've been dual booting Devuan and OpenBSD and must say I am pleasantly surprised: The OpenBSD userspace feels much more comfortable and familiar to a GNU/Linux user than I had expected.

Some reasons a Devuan user would like OpenBSD:

1. Its developers are fanatically committed to the UNIX philosophy of each piece of software doing one thing well
2. Its developers have a strong stance on free software (they tolerate non-free software only for firmware running in peripherals--no non-free software is allowed in the kernel or anywhere in the base system). With minimal attention (e.g., making sure your wireless card does not require proprietary firmware), your OpenBSD installation can consist of 100% free software. (BTW Libreboot, which I have in my system, can handle booting OpenBSD: https://libreboot.org/docs/bsd/openbsd.html)
3. OpenBSD maintains its own kernel, init, X server, and repository of third-party packages. It is therefore fairly immune to poor outside decisions.
4. Their third-party packages are ported directly from upstream, without an intervening parent distro
5. The base installation is minimalistic: Kernel, init, X, networking stack, and administrative tools are all part of the OS, so you start out with 0 (!) packages. (My OpenBSD + MATE + everything-I-could-possibly-want-in-a-laptop installation has a total of 70 manually-installed packages, grand total of 385 packages including manually installed plus dependencies.)
6. Scrupulous attention to code correctness and documentation

If you want to read more, this is a nice overview: https://www.cambus.net/why-openbsd/

I just wanted to put OpenBSD on your radar. Again, I am faithful to (and have faith in) Devuan, but it is good to have a backup plan in case Devuan's underlying technologies (Debian and the linux kernel) have a total meltdown.

[P.S. If you decide to install OpenBSD to give it a try, I would strongly recommend installing it to a non-production machine or, if to your production machine, to a second harddrive. The installer is quite spartan and it took me a few tries, some reading, and two accidental wipes of my hard drive before a successful install. Fortunately I am paranoid about backups, so no real harm done except for the slight inconvenience of having to restore my Devuan partition and my personal data. Now that I know how to use it, I must say their installer is a marvel of simplicity.]

Last edited by GNUser (2018-12-20 04:21:39)

MiyoLinux · 2018-12-20 07:25:39

I agree. I've been "multi-booting" with FreeBSD for about a year now (?). Although, I somewhat prefer OpenBSD...I could never figure out how to install it on a single partition on my multiple partitioned hard drive. LOL! So, I put FreeBSD on that computer and OpenBSD on a computer all to itself.

The BSDs take some time to learn, but once you "get it", they're a joy to use.

Last edited by MiyoLinux (2018-12-20 07:26:16)

KatolaZ · 2018-12-20 09:51:49

I agree *BSD are a good alternative to GNU/Linux (with caveats about some of the choices of the dev teams). I have used them myself in the past, and feel totally at home, especially with OpenBSD.

I don't agree on the motivations though: the only way to not need a contingency plan is to do whatever is possible to make the current plan work :-) In other words, the only way to avoid to have to migrate to *BSD is by helping ensuring that Devuan and similar distros continue delivering on their mission. If we give up hope and commitment, eventual failure is certain.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

cynwulf · 2018-12-20 10:08:06

MiyoLinux wrote:

Although, I somewhat prefer OpenBSD...I could never figure out how to install it on a single partition on my multiple partitioned hard drive.

Refer to fdisk(8), which has a good explanation of how GPT and MBR partitions are handled by OpenBSD.

OpenBSD can install to either type, but the partition still has a disklabel(8) created. So in either case the GPT or MBR partition serves only as a "container" for OpenBSD's native disklabel partition layout.

The OpenBSD installer will assume by default that you are installing the OS on a whole block device as the sole OS. For other scenarios, it's necessary to read the documentation before making any hasty decisions or assumptions.

I'm hardly an authority on multi-booting as I run OpenBSD, on both my computers as the sole OS.

https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting

MiyoLinux · 2018-12-20 10:53:26

cynwulf wrote:

MiyoLinux wrote:
Although, I somewhat prefer OpenBSD...I could never figure out how to install it on a single partition on my multiple partitioned hard drive.
Refer to fdisk(8), which has a good explanation of how GPT and MBR partitions are handled by OpenBSD.
OpenBSD can install to either type, but the partition still has a disklabel(8) created. So in either case the GPT or MBR partition serves only as a "container" for OpenBSD's native disklabel partition layout.
The OpenBSD installer will assume by default that you are installing the OS on a whole block device as the sole OS. For other scenarios, it's necessary to read the documentation before making any hasty decisions or assumptions.
I'm hardly an authority on multi-booting as I run OpenBSD, on both my computers as the sole OS.
https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting

Thank you. I remember reading over that multiboot page, but I never pursued the other links provided by that page (or you).

GNUser · 2018-12-20 12:31:55

KatolaZ wrote:

I don't agree on the motivations though: the only way to not need a contingency plan is to do whatever is possible to make the current plan work :-)

Totally with you there, KatolaZ. I will do everything within my power to help Devuan. It is my favorite OS and I want it to thrive. I just think it's good to have a contingency plan because some things are much bigger than us and well beyond our control.

siva · 2018-12-20 14:18:47

Its developers are fanatically committed to the UNIX philosophy of each piece of software doing one thing well...The base installation is minimalistic: Kernel, init, X, networking stack, and administrative tools are all part of the OS...

Their stock utilities are exceptional -- its variant of ifconfig is god-tier compared to Linux.

OpenBSD maintains its own kernel, init, X server, and repository of third-party packages. It is therefore fairly immune to poor outside decisions...Scrupulous attention to code correctness and documentation.

"Poor outside decisions" is the key phrase here, although the whole quote should really be revised to say something like, "prioritizes user control over applications." (I've been told they're similar to gentoo/slackware in this way, but I've never used either distro.) The ports and package manager is legit, just a little tedious to learn at first.

P.S. If you decide to install OpenBSD to give it a try, I would strongly recommend installing it to a non-production machine or, if to your production machine, to a second harddrive.

Salient advice. The way it partitions may be unusual to someone venturing from stock Debian-based systems.

MiyoLinux wrote:

I could never figure out how to install it on a single partition on my multiple partitioned hard drive.

A trick is, in your Linux/Devuan system, use fdisk/cfdisk, to mark a predefined partition as "openbsd" (I think it's A6). Then, the openbsd installer will ask you if you want to install to OpenBSD space. iirc, post-installation, you'll have to reinstall grub if you still want to use grub.

Side note, if anyone's interested, I wrote a few scripts (including a wifi utility) for openbsd: https://github.com/souperdoupe/crunkbon … er/openbsd

Last edited by siva (2018-12-20 14:19:55)

Ogis1975 · 2018-12-20 15:26:10

Its developers have a strong stance on free software (they tolerate non-free software only for firmware running in peripherals--no non-free software is allowed in the kernel or anywhere in the base system).

It only proves how advanced their sectarian paranoia is.

Its developers are fanatically committed to the UNIX philosophy of each piece of software doing one thing well

These stubborn sectarians categorically withdrew Nvidia video card support. Nvidia is not supported in this so-called "system." Neither open source drivers nor closed code. So, they can interfere with their sectarian operating system in their asses.

I just wanted to put OpenBSD on your radar.

Apparently your radar is spoiled. I would suggest paying attention to FreeBSD. Recently, a new version-12 has come out. I think this is a good alternative for Devuan and Debian (obviously, if things go wrong).

siva · 2018-12-20 15:45:03

^"stubborn sectarians" just sounds like a capcha.

nvidia drivers have always been a pain, foss or otherwise (especially the otherwise). Given their aims, it isn't worth their time. If you want it to be, then become the "unofficial" nvidia contributor (or fork openbsd) and be the change you complain about.

cynwulf · 2018-12-20 15:52:11

Ogis1975 wrote:

It only proves how advanced their sectarian paranoia is [bla, blah, blah]

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

------------------------

siva wrote:

nvidia drivers have always been a pain, foss or otherwise (especially the otherwise).

Well OpenBSD have not ported the reverse engineered nouveau driver, nor does there seem to be any interest in doing so, but that's not to say that it's been expressly prohibited. There is the nv(4) driver which works for some, for some older hardware (which hasn't been removed), but that's about it. In all other cases it's the VESA driver or buying supported hardware (hint: as is often the case with any OS).

It's worth noting that FreeBSD haven't ported the Linux nouveau kms driver either. There was an effort, as I recall, about a decade ago which stalled and there has been little or no interest ever since (partially because there is the well maintained vendor BLOB and partially due to lack of interest/developer time). I remember reading that early non kms xf86-video-nouveau did kind of half work at one stage as I recall, probably around 7.0-release (just a little before I first started using FreeBSD).

nouveau has been recently ported to NetBSD however and has been enabled by default since 8.0 release. So some progress and now a real possibility of future cross porting to other 'BSDs (if someone wants to do it).

The nvidia proprietary UNIX (BLOB) driver is available to a particular OS entirely at the discretion of nvidia corporation - so is therefore a moot point and not worth further discussion.

Even if the BLOB were on offer, the OpenBSD project would not sign any NDAs and not permit the loading of the BLOB as a kernel module regardless, as that would be completely at odds with the objectives, history and goals of the project.

Last edited by cynwulf (2018-12-20 16:39:51)

Ogis1975 · 2018-12-20 16:35:39

siva wrote:

Given their aims, it isn't worth their time.

Given the huge market share of Nvidia, it is understandable why the sectans do not have time for it. Thanks to God, Debian and Devuan are not so sectarian.

siva wrote:

If you want it to be, then become the "unofficial" nvidia contributor (or fork openbsd) and be the change you complain about.

Do you think I have nothing to do? Man, I'll tell you a terrible secret. In FreeBSD 12, I can install the Nvidia driver very easily with simple command

pkg install nvidia-driver

And do not even need to compile it.

cynwulf · 2018-12-20 16:39:08

You're making an outstanding idiot of yourself and should just stop now before it's too late.

Ogis1975 · 2018-12-20 16:43:01

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

I do not care about your clown's opinion.

discretion of nvidia corporation - so is therefore a moot point and not worth further discussion.

Quite right. Nvidia has neither the time nor the desire to work with tedious sectarians who consider themselves elite.

siva · 2018-12-20 16:46:15

Ogis1975 wrote:

discretion of nvidia corporation...
Quite right. Nvidia has neither the time nor the desire to work with tedious sectarians who consider themselves elite.

This makes me wonder how often Theo de Raadt assumes an alternate online persona and strategically troll-posts against his own distro.

Ogis1975 · 2018-12-20 16:46:49

cynwulf wrote:

You're making an outstanding idiot of yourself and should just stop now before it's too late.

Do you threaten me? I will repeat. I do not care about your clown's opinion.

Last edited by Ogis1975 (2018-12-20 16:47:33)

cynwulf · 2018-12-20 16:50:34

If you perceive that statement as a "threat", you're clearly an even bigger idiot than I had first assumed.

Just stop making an even bigger ass of yourself and run along and play with your FreeBSD.

Last edited by cynwulf (2018-12-20 16:50:47)

Ogis1975 · 2018-12-20 17:02:47

troll-posts

Apparently you did not understand the essence. The author proposed an alternative operating system that apparently works well with its hardware. However, it is well-known that this operating system does not work well for various hardware components. And worse, the author of this system refuses to correct the situation. In that limited sectarian community, so small that they can not test their operating systems in a wider range of hardware, they have the easiest way to offer-fork it.

siva · 2018-12-20 17:09:59

Ogis1975 wrote:

the easiest way to offer-fork it.

Then fork it already.

Ogis1975 · 2018-12-20 17:11:47

cynwulf wrote:

before it's too late.

Calm down man and take medicine for nervous tension. Yes, yes, of course. This is not a threat. Your thoughts are as strange as the inability to recognize a simple fact. Hardware support of this operating system is tragic.

cynwulf · 2018-12-20 17:21:18

Ogis, you're spewing a continuous stream of bullshit. It's not getting any better as it goes on.

Your "opinions" are not worth entertaining, as they fall well short of the level to be considered valid opinions.

Ogis1975 wrote:

tragic

Very.

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#1 2018-12-20 04:03:54

OpenBSD

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