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#101 Other Issues » To X or not to X ? » 2023-12-25 12:21:27

chomwitt
Replies: 0

I read in the news that X seems to be getting into the freeze. By studying X's history(0) i think a better phrasing would be:
'Certain companies , developers and maintainers' of Xorg X11 implementation are switching their focus and energy
from X11 to Wayland' . I think that phrasing is more just because X doesnt seem to me that is a certain person(s)'s project
as it is presented usually in many news articles that seem historically blind. X has a long long history that isnt rooted only on a certain
coorporation's agenda to grab a market.  So i think with great care that history should be studied in order to better understand the present.

So in that spirit i found and old paragraph on the book  The Joy of X by Nial Mansfield (1993) that i found it interesting and helpful in giving us a better persective on what X is :

1.4 How X compares with other systems :

Microsoft Windows for DOS give you a true windowing system on PC with a consistent GUI,and multiple applications which can be more or less active simultaneously. Like X is not part of the operating system,but is a separate optional piece of software which you run on top of the operating system.
It differs from X in two important ways:
1. The user interface is fixed and build into the system, so you cannot change it. For example , if you wanted to emulate the Macintosh interface, you just can't do it with MS Windows.
2. You can only run local applications ,which means that you can only use applications written for DOS PCs. You cannot compile a program for VAX VMS , say , with the Windows GUI built into it, and run it on the VAX displaying to your PC.

That quote first highlights that initially the MS Windowing system was not part of the main OS (DOS) . That it's interesting because lately (1)  i was troubled about the relation that a Display Server can have with an OS. And looking back we see that computational functionality doesnt belong somewhere by it's nature. The relation that X or MS Windows's windowing system  has with a OS are fluid and susceptible to human and organizational needs.

Initially there was MS DOS and the first windowing system on it was VisiOn(1983) and Windows 1.0.

Secondly that quote highlights that what once was presented as a strength not available at other OSes (network transparency ,policy-free, separation from the OS -OS independence - ) now there are presented as flaws that must be get rid of.  But by doing that.. in a similar future comparison would that put a Linux windowing system more close to the MS view of how and where a windowing system works ?

Could it be that X is a functionality nucleus suitable for a distributed-network and flexible  centric-view of computing and by abandoning  it libre software community is loosing a gift that was once handed to it ? 

Wouldnt it be better to have both Wayland view on what a windowing system is and X's views ?   

(0) How X started?
(1) Should a display server contain a drawing API ? 

#102 Re: Off-topic » Should a display server contain a drawing API ? » 2023-12-24 14:13:40

Thinking it a little more i think i can try a first answer to one of my questions:

Also what is the relation of NHDS to the kernel ?

Sure NHDS must access OGDDs . But does it need something more? Access to memory ? To filesystem ? But if kernel controls access to memory how GM is different ? Isn't it memory ? Isn't that strange ? Kernel mediates and supervise access to memory to hundreds of processes and GM supervision could be NOT part of the kernel ?

If we assume that each user has his own graphical workstation with certain resources then we could say that the X server is a part of distributed OS . Lets call it Z !   

The reason X wasn't part of an OS at the start and afterwards could be that it was running closer to the resources that it was meant to supervise.
But we could draw new imaginary user-kernel boundaries and imagine that a user program calls a distributed OS's (Z) services to access an Xtty . And Z would initiate calls to its X part running at a remote workstation . Like drawpolyarc(x,z..,IDwindow,IPworkstation).

Also in project Athena they wanted that part (X server) to be independent of the OS of the available IBM and DEC workstations. So there lies the second part of my answer:

The weak to non-existent organization-integration coupling of two OS is manifested in the weak integration (towards either or those OSes) of a new software component that must work with both of these OSes.

So my guess is that all those 'merits' that were advertised back then for X (device independence, minimal dependence of server,network transparency) cant be part of Wayland not because of technology efforts but because of organizational issues . 

All that effort that was put in Project Athena , ( ref2 , ref3 ) to coordinate MIT,DEC,IBM and infuse in the project a future flexibility in integration with various third party systems can not be found in the efforts and motives that initiated the Wayland project.

One the one hand i feel an aura or coolness  towards X and its "environment" that gave rise to it.  But i see that even MIT Athena has move to other Virtual Desktop solutions instead of trying an X12 or Z solution.

So i guess that the libre community must try to maintain X and keep it's culture alive. Wayland is a solution that maybe needed for a  desktop centric view of personal computing but it maybe not the road that must be taken for a networked-interconnencted approach . Maybe X can find a better home inside a push for distributed-micro-kernel OSes.

GM: Graphics Memory
NH-DS : NucleusHarmonyDisplayServer
OGDD: Output Graphics Device Driver

#103 Off-topic » How X started .. » 2023-12-24 06:59:20

chomwitt
Replies: 1

First there was : VGTS by Nowicki et al [1]  Partitioning of Function in a Distributed Graphics System William I. Nowicki

Then W. W is a bit mysterious as not much public information exist on internet. But from the quote below two persons are credited for W ,Paul Asente and Chris Kent.

We acquired a UNIX based version of W for the VS100 (with synchronous communication over TCP produced by Paul Asente and Chris Kent at Digital’s Western Research Laboratory.

But if W was ported to the DEC's VAX-11 computers in order to be used with the VS100 (which was a graphic terminal) from the V operating system  then what was the use of Workstation Graphics Architecture documented in  document on WGA from Henry M. Levy  who for 8 years from 1975-1983 was Engineer at VAX/VMS  ?   I get a satoshi vibe on W..

It could be that W is just the initial letter of Workstation Graphics Architecture created for DEC's VS100 ? Maybe Henry M. Levy created W and Paul Asente[ and Chris Kent did the porting of W to Unix (because DEC was also selling a Unix like OS?  All three were working at DEC ..


Paul Asente
was also involved later in the X toolkit development. (see also X Toolkit Intrinsics - C Language Interface. )
The Western Research Laboratory (WRL) was a computer systems research group that was founded by Digital Equipment Corporation in 1982.

(1983)  In May 1983 MIT announced the establishment of a five-year program to explore new innovative uses of computing in the MIT curriculum. This program was Project Athena.
Aside from educational goals additional technical objectives were:
- support of a heterogeneous hardware configuration
- provide a user interface independent of hardware.
- provide a software development enviroment independent of hardware
- maximize the exportability and importability of hardware
Also one umbrella requirement was that the system created should have ''coherence'' . Coherence meant  that Athena should act as unifying glue allowing sharing of computational resources . That need couldnt but lead to the requirement for indepedence. So we could say that Athena had in it's dna a distributed soul since it mean to unify diverse computational resources across a networked campus.
Michael Dertouzos is credited for that idea . Dertouzos was also Director of MIT/LCS and is also credited as one of the heads that initiated and supported Project Athena..
It's interesting also to note that for some applications( Athena Laboratory Data System )  the 'coherence' requirement was abandoned and the Unix thin workstation couldn't meet real time requirement of certain hardware (multiple signal processing)  in favor of an  integrated IBM PC.
I think that means that if  you need more control on the peripherals added that can not  be done on the thin client and wait for all the signals to propagate to the server to process them.  That could be an argument against a fixed division of computational labor implemented in X.  Although i am not sure if real time computational requirement can be met by any future distributed system. When  you distribute work far away across a shared network you win in sharing and economy but you lose real time requirements.

Finally many many people in MIT, DEC,IBM are credited for making the Athena Project a reality . Combining various things i guess is like genetic merging ... :-)  . Some times can be fun and productive ! But lets also not forget that all Project MAC (project was a misnomer in purpose, it was a lab) was funded by DARPA.

( ref )

(1984) X was announced . It was based on W .  Initial development by Robert W Scheifler  and   Jim Gettyref )

19 June 1984

From: rws@mit-bold (Robert W. Scheifler)
To: window@athena
Subject: window system X
Date: 19 Jun 1984 0907-EDT (Tuesday)

I've spent the last couple weeks writing a window
system for the VS100. I stole a fair amount of code
from W, surrounded it with an asynchronous rather
than a synchronous interface, and called it X.

The X Window System by Robert W. Scheifler and Jim Gettys

(1985) An X11 License (precursor to MIT License) was added to X version 6 . .X was originally under a proprietary license but what we would now call an open source license was added to X version 6. 
(ref )   Computer Systems Research (CSR) Group of the  MIT–LCS (precursor to CSAIL) had developed several pieces of network software that were generating outside interest and requests for both information and copies of the code. That was the environment that created the fertile ground for MIT License. Jerome H. Saltzer seem to had a crucial role in the initial push for open licenses.  Also that guy had Fernado J. Corbato as Doctoral advisor (Corbato was a pioneer in timesharing) he was a team leader to Multics (the Unix precursor) , led MIT's MIT-LCS/CSR and was techical director to Project Athena that gave X.
Keep in mind that moden MIT's CSAIL formed in 2003 by merger of : The Laboratory for Computer Science (LCS) and the Artificial Intelligence Laboratory (AI Lab). LCS has central role in Project Athena and has its roots at Project MAC and AI Lab was a lab where hacker like Richard Stallman thrived. ( ref )  .

In the fall of 1985, the question arose of how to license the X Window System[20] that was being developed by Jim Gettys[21] and Bob Scheifler[22] for MIT Project Athena.[23] In discussions parallel to those of two years earlier, they had noticed that proprietary licensing of early versions of the X Window System was becoming a hassle both for them and for prospective recipients and had the potential of interfering with widespread adoption. There were significant contributions made by early adopters, but that only made it more apparent that it was important to minimize the licensing friction.

Jerome H. Saltzer,   The Origin of the “MIT License”

 

(1988-1993) MIT X Consortium formed as a non-profit vendor group, with Robert Scheifler as director. ( wikipedia )
Also the same year Keith Packard joined in March 1988 as senior developers. (i mention him because 15 years later it seems he had probably central role in the XFreee86 split and X.Org foundation )

(1993-1996) X Consortium, Inc is formed (a non-profit corporation) formed as the successor to the MIT X Consortium. ( ref ) X11 R6 (16/5/1994). According to that analysis of the negatives  of the pro-paid work model used were : a) volunteer labor was crowded out  b)  drop in transparency in X to most of its developers c) change the direction of the project in ways that do not always serve the interests of users.

Because toolkits, desktop environments, and 3D were each controversial or proprietary areas among the funders, staff was not paid to work on these areas. The result was several major gaps in the X11 platform that restricted the ultimate usefulness of the software. Had the workers been working as volunteers, these were problems that would have been addressed early on — there was high demand from users. However, the introduction of paid labor directed the project in other directions.

(1999) X.Org is formed by Open Group.

(1991) X386 was an implementation of the X Window System on x86 arch.
X386 was created by Thomas Roell while at Technische Universität München . (  LJ Interviews Thomas Roell ),( Announcement of release 1.1 (as X386 1.1, based on X11R4) in 11/02/1991  .( ref )  (for reference 25/08/1991 Linux was announced.. so i guess that is a merit of os independence. The kernel came after the display server).

(1992) XFree86 project was formed to continue X386 probably from 1.2+ . initial release. 
The project  was originally founded  by David Dawes, Glenn Lai, Jim Tsillas and David Wexelblat.  ( an interesting archived interview with David Dawes that offer valuable insights about the funding of XFree86. Like for example the support from Tungsten Graphics that was co-founded by Brian Paul developer of Mesa library. )

(2003) A split happened in XFree86 core team. Keith Packard an X11 developer from 1988 was removed from XFree86 project ( ref1 ). Some months pass and the core team left sorf of disbands it self!  ( Why a history of the X.org fork?)

(2004) X.Org foundation is founded and release X.Org X11 server.( wikipedia/X.Org) .  X.Org foundation seem to be the continuation of

Interestingly i found that quote from David Wexelblat (XFree86 initial founders) from that 2003-2004 era:

"X is obsolescent," he wrote in a mailing list posting.

"I've been working in the Windows world for years now, and client-server display systems are utterly irrelevant to the majority of real-world computer users. X needs to be replaced by a direct-rendered model, on which a backwards-compatible X server can be reasonably trivially implemented".

It seems that at some point 3d accelerated graphics in personal computers created a 'gold rush' era that expanded and in the GNU/Linux t. Echoes of that era still makes waves by repeating old arguments and division about X and its role.

I wonder if the solution would simple enough. Those who dont care about the destktop intergrated style of windowing systems (DIWS) to step forward and maintain and improve X.

Ironically the XFree86 and the XOrg seems to represent a majority that favors DIWS. But at the same period 2002-2003 you could find stories about Linux thinclients networks that saved the budget of whole cities!

So i hope that short X history study of mine highlights that  X is not only an old an inadequate 2d,3d renderer. X was a first of its kind successful open software distributed-networked windows system designed from day one to be platform independent and network native.
. An X12 or Y should improve on all that accounts. Why not an extensible NeWS like display server  that can be part of a microkernel of a distributed OS ? (see also Why X is Not Our Ideal Windows System.)  But surely an all in one solution that puts as priority the rendering aspect is for me a different window system. Not X like but Windows like.

The bad news is that it seems that from day one, in Linux land,those who worked to bring X to x86 , probably had in mind not X but a Wayland-like solution investing more of their energy mainly in the rendering-gpu-support aspect. Who knows.. maybe that was a job that HAD to be done before exploring other venues..  Its nice to have cool graphics in your windowing system in you GNU/Linux pc. But that is not in X tradition. That is something else.

Now seeing the more slowly rate of Wayland adoption it could mean that the Wayland-type window-system push although is a welcomed addition to the libre land and should be welcomed and encouraged nevertheless it could be that libreland and it's inhabitants are not an ms-window alternative land.
I think some want that . Steam wants that. Propably RedHat and many developers since there is where the more users are. But i think that over-done push could be also a mark of a certain stagnation..

On the other hand what did we expect ? When Thomas Roell started porting X11 to x86  PC i don't think he had in his mind the VS100 connected to a VAX 11 superminicomputers.  IBM PCs were never meant to be thin clients.

It could be the case that X11's distributed soul in the process of being ported to a PC-oriented platform  has been ''hijacked'' in favor for a PersonaWindowSystem PC's PWS . And it makes more sense to pay more attention to having fast and eyecandy graphics in a PWS than pay any attention to (as the wayland proponets call it)  niche use cases that nobody cares for!.. And it makes sense in developing a  PWS to want WS developers that can deliver that aspect.

Reading emails and articles from the Xfree86 - X.orgs 2003 (''split'') i havent found (so far) any trace of arguments in between Xfree86 developers regarding the use-cases that must be worked on the most.  Instead the  differences were on licenses and the organization efficiency to keep pace with rapid changes in the gpu - market. 

In this view and context its seems logical (and a dream come true if you read the aspirations of the PWS developers mentality 30 years back)  for a Wayland PWS to emerge.

What i dont like  is that there are not any Distributed Windowing System  (DWS) devs to come forward and claim X11's legacy.  Since that was not the case from day 1 of the X386 port that explains the fact that X is being abandoned in favor for Wayland!!!.
That is happening because of the circumstances that i describe here.  While it would make much more
sence for PWS proponent devs to split and create their own PWS project and dont tarnish X11 DWS aura. 

Now we are stuck with X11/amd64 users (minority) that  rely on X11/amd64 's DWS dna and indepedence form day1  (1980-83) era  and X11/amd64 developers with a PWS mentality and abilities that are controlling (or that it seems to me so far) its development fueled by a strong flux of money and interest by GPU mammoths that see in games and AI huge market grow opportunities.

So the minority seems to be slowly getting thrown out of the AMD64/x86 Linux bus...

I wonder why Linux desktop virtualization (or DaaS)  solutions of companies like NX-based solutions (nomachine),  vmware ,teamware dont   have any interest on the development of  X11  i mean in a way to feel the necessity to be part of X.Org.

If they build X11 forwarding proprietary protocols shouldn't they want also to have a voice in the X.Org BoardOfDirectors ?  Isnt it strange to have Valve and Codeweavers as guardians of X11 ?  Or as i said before , it could be the case the X11's distributed spirit is long dead. That hypothesis could be tested also easily by looking at the sources to see the changes in various areas. Or could it be the case that Wayland can also function without any deficiances as Distributed Diplay server by its own extensions mechanisms ?

Speaking of distributed souls have you heard of Sun Ray. Sun's thinclient solution (1999-2013) that was based on  separate network display protocol, Appliance Link Protocol (ALP)?  SunRay was a successor to JavaStation a previous attempt (1996-2000) from Sun to create a thinclient market.

Is there any plan by Wayland to incorporate ssh forwarding?  2019 , Interesting discussion about X11 forwarding and Wayland . I think the discussion centers on one 'architectural' difference between X11 and Wayland. X11 has graphics primitives and that can beat a framebuffer 'forwarding' approach. But still couldnt wayland offers as extension Cairo primitives ? 

A short timeline of X

#104 Re: Off-topic » Should a display server contain a drawing API ? » 2023-12-23 11:30:25

siva wrote:
chomwitt wrote:

But why should it have a drawing api ?

I misunderstood your intention. I think what you're asking about is closer to Cairo or DRM. ....

Thank you very much for the links!
My intention is to find a more coherent way perhaps to make sense of display servers and the pros and cons. Now , i read about wayland vs x and my head aches.

I found thought that quote from LPC: Life after X by Jonathan Corbet (05/11/2010):

But things have changed in the 25 years or so since work began on X. Back in 1985, Unix systems did not support shared libraries; if the user ran two applications linked to the same library, there would be two copies of that library in memory, which was a scarce resource in those days. So it made a lot of sense to put graphics code into a central server (X), where it could be shared among applications. We no longer need to do things that way; our systems have gotten much better at sharing code which appears in different address spaces.

So that it's interesting. X server's drawing functionality being part of the display server because the other option (each client having the drawing api as a staticaly linked lib) would put pressure on memory usage.

So we have architectural choice (on display server)  based on a resource constraint.  A resource constraint leads to simpler designs with less choices (less drawing apis).
We dont want each app to have each own drawing api. Choices and variety is not inherently bad but need memory.

In that light we could say that the choice to leave a drawing API outside a DS protocol makes the protocol  compatible with a computational enviroment that can support and-or want more choices.  Interestingly focusing only on the drawing api it seem that the wayland protocol is more unix-like .

The fun part is that X didnt include UI toolkits (in contrast to other window systems of the 80s like SunView 'selling' that as a feature of the 'mechanism not policy' mantra ! 

Wait a minute! .. We have a memory restricted enviroment and we say lets dont put drawing APIs in the clients (in contrary to the 'mechanism not policy' mantra ) BUT lets allow clients to have UI toolkits because we promote the ''mechanism not policy' mantra ! ...

#105 Re: Off-topic » Should a display server contain a drawing API ? » 2023-12-23 08:53:23

quickfur wrote:

Depends on what you include in said drawing API.

By drawing API i had in mind primitives shapes like drawline , drarcircle , printtext , etc .

I've read that wayland protocol doesnt include such drawingAPI and i wonder if we're playing with words and boundaries.

I mean, lets say in a wayland based compositor  i create a drawing API library for the wayland clients with the same primitives as X11 .   So we can say then that wayland is more minimal protocol and more flexible and maybe more modular since it could accomodate more drawing APIs than X11 ?.Or we can say that there is no big difference , and that even X11 can by extensions accomodate thirdparty drawing APIs but it has a default one?

#106 Re: Off-topic » Should a display server contain a drawing API ? » 2023-12-22 20:06:02

siva wrote:

Assuming also the simplest b/w OGD supporting one resolution how difficult would be to implement it ?

It may take some elbow grease.

Should NHDS support also a drawing API ?

yes.

should it ... leave a user app draw whatever it likes directly to the portion of the GM thats was handed to it

no.

But why should it have a drawing api ?

#107 Off-topic » Should a display server contain a drawing API ? » 2023-12-22 13:47:31

chomwitt
Replies: 8

Trying to make better sense of Wayland vs X11server comparison the more i read the more confused i feel.
So i figured to try to approach that as general as possible.

What is a display server? Wikipedia says:

A display server or window server is a program whose primary task is to coordinate the input and output of its clients to and from the rest of the operating system, the hardware, and each other.

So when a resource (graphics memory GM) is shared ,then not having a process to coordinate the GMRequests coming from different user apps would mean basically that there is not rules imposed and each program could draw everywhere and anytime. So i guess that is the most fundamental restriction that somehow it must be imposed .

A user program should not be allowed to draw anywhere it wants!..

So the most rudimentary display server should accept requests from GM-clients and have a fixed partition of its GM. That elementary GM would accept only lets say 4 apps. Also the GM would need to impose a certain data format to the incoming GMRs and being able to send the appropriate formatted-typed request to the OutputGraphicsDevice Drivers (OGDD).

Lets say someone wants to implement that rudimentary DS ..lets call it  :Nucleus Harmony Display Server (NHDS) .
Assuming also the simplest b/w OGD supporting one resolution how difficult would be to implement it ?

Should NHDS support also a drawing API ? If not should it support drawing API's as extensions or leave a user app draw whatever it likes directly to the portion of the GM thats was handed to it ?

Also what is the relation of NHDS to the kernel ?

Sure NHDS must access OGDDs . But does it need something more? Access to memory ? To filesystem ? But if kernel controls access to memory how GM is different ? Isnt it memory ? Isnt that strange ? Kernel mediates and supervise access to memory to hundrers of processes and GM supervision could be NOT part of the kernel ?

#108 Re: Other Issues » runit services : Trying to create an emacs service » 2023-12-05 17:38:30

i had an issue with the service not opening a socket at reboot. I think maybe it has to do with the export XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=/run/user/1000.
Maybe is not set up until i log on ? In which case what should i do ? Try it as a user service ?

#109 Re: Other Issues » runit services : Trying to create an emacs service » 2023-11-29 16:38:00

Ok. Here is the run script that allows emacsclient to connect without a full 'socket' name:

#!/usr/bin/env /lib/runit/invoke-run
export HOME=/home/chomwitt
export XDG_RUNTIME_DIR=/run/user/1000
exec 2>&1
cd $HOME
exec chpst -u chomwitt:chomwitt  emacs --fg-daemon=chomwitt-emacsd

#110 Re: Other Issues » runit services : Trying to create an emacs service » 2023-11-29 10:19:15

I've managed to start emacslient .

$ lsof -c emacs
emacs   623 chomwitt    6u     unix 0x000000006612cb3d      0t0  1292858 /tmp/emacs1000/chomwitt-emacsd type=STREAM (LISTEN)
$ emacsclient -s /tmp/emacs1000/chomwitt-emacsd -c  .

when started from the command line it uses a different 'socket'.

$ lsof -c emacs
emacs   27340 chomwitt    6u     unix 0x00000000d0fa297b      0t0  1696185 /run/user/1000/emacs/chomwitt-emacsd type=STREAM (LISTEN)
emacs   27340 chomwitt    4u     unix 0x00000000331e1ac8      0t0  1518638 type=STREAM (CONNECTED)

My guess is that from command line emacs --fg-daemon=chomwitt-emacsd uses $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR
$ echo $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR
/run/user/1000

So i will try to make  $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR visible to my /etc/sv/emacs/run script

#111 Other Issues » runit services : Trying to create an emacs service » 2023-11-29 07:11:08

chomwitt
Replies: 3

I can start the emacs service and then start an emacs frame as a client with:

$ emacs --fg-daemon=chomwitt-emacsd 
$ emacsclient --socket-name=chomwitt-emacsd

$ ps -aux | grep emacs
chomwitt   494  0.0  0.0   6692  2088 pts/0    S+   09:05   0:00 grep emacs
chomwitt 31778  0.0  0.2 679544 139624 pts/4   Sl+  Nov28   0:01 emacs --fg-daemon=chomwitt-emacsd

Now i tried to create a service with:

$ less /etc/sv/emacs/run 
#!/usr/bin/env /lib/runit/invoke-run
export HOME=/home/chomwitt
exec 2>&1
cd $HOME
exec chpst -u chomwitt:chomwitt /usr/bin/emacs --fg-daemon=chomwitt-emacsd 

And then i start the service with:

$ sudo ln -s /etc/sv/emacs /etc/service/emacsd
$ ps -aux | grep emacs
root       622  0.0  0.0   2344  1040 ?        Ss   09:07   0:00 runsv emacsd
chomwitt   623  5.5  0.1 224348 110176 ?       S    09:07   0:00 /usr/bin/emacs --fg-daemon=chomwitt-emacsd
chomwitt   660  0.0  0.0   6692  2088 pts/0    S+   09:07   0:00 grep emacs

But now triying to start a client i get a 'cant find the service' error:

$ emacsclient  --socket-name=chomwitt-emacsd -c
emacsclient: can't find socket; have you started the server?
emacsclient: To start the server in Emacs, type "M-x server-start".
emacsclient: error accessing socket "chomwitt-emacsd"

My sources that i initially based my effort:
  Lorenzo Puliti 's   runit-services
  Emacs daemon as a runit service by  Hristos N. Triantafillou
(Hristos has blogged also Emacs daemon as a runit "user service" but
i decided to try first the option that it seems to me more common and simple and suit me since i dont share my computer)

#112 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » What games do you play on Devuan?? » 2023-09-24 11:15:54

Ogis1975 wrote:

I don't play games at all. It's a pointless waste of time.

As Roger Caillois sum it up in  Man, Play and Games (1961):

Summing up the formal characteristics of play we might call it a free activity standing quite consciously outside "ordinary" life as being "not serious," but at the same time absorbing the player intensely and utterly. It is an activity connected with no material interest, and no profit can be gained by it. It proceeds within its own proper boundaries of time and space according to fixed rules and in an orderly manner. It promotes the formation of social groupings which tend to surround themselves with secrecy and to stress their difference from the common world by disguise or other means.

So your stance is in accordnance with the above characterization.

But what about the 'fun' element that is also hightlighed above .( time absorbing the player intensely and utterly ).
I mean if someone say : 'I dont play games at all . It:'s pointless and fun' that would sound strange ? Doesnt it?
What about if somebody said : 'I dont play video games at all. It's pointless and no fun at all' would that sound less strange?

#113 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » What games do you play on Devuan?? » 2023-09-23 15:29:35

Libre :  Longturn (freeciv longplay) , Oolite , FreeOrion , CDDA .  TanksOfFreedom 1 and 2 .
From itch.io : Celeste , Overland
From gog : The Red String Club (wont run but there is a way) , Rimworld
Stellaris also (there are non steam options too).
Pico 8:  Celeste (the first celeste).

Also I'd like to propose an devuan initiative in the spirit of https://libregaming.org/  because playiing games together is more fun.

#114 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Sway with seatd » 2023-09-23 14:58:26

System : Daedalus , sway+seatd+libpam-ck-connector

I find a way to install Calibre without pulling elogind  .

(due to past command: sudo dpkg --add-architecture i386 we see also various i386 packages)

$ sudo apt-get install calibre
     The following packages will be REMOVED:
       libasound2-plugins:i386 libpam-ck-connector libpulse0:i386
       libsdl2-2.0-0:i386 libsystemd0 libsystemd0:i386
     The following NEW packages will be installed:
       blt calibre calibre-bin eject elogind 

After we lowering apt priority to -1 for elogind in /etc/apt/preferences :
$ sudo apt-get install calibre
     The following packages will be REMOVED:
       libpam-ck-connector libsystemd0 libsystemd0:i386
     The following NEW packages will be installed:
       blt calibre calibre-bin eject elogind:i386   

After we lowering apt priority to -1 for elogind:i386 in /etc/apt/preferences : 
$ sudo apt-get install calibre
     The following packages will be REMOVED:
       libpam-ck-connector
     The following NEW packages will be installed:
       blt calibre calibre-bin dummy-logind ..

I didnt found how to keep 'libpam-ck-connector' from being removed in /etc/apt/preferences
but that command worked:
$ sudo apt-mark hold libpam-ck-connector
$ sudo apt-get install calibre
 // now libpam-ck-connector was not listed for removal but
 // neither dummy-logind for installation. But calibre was installed and seems to work ok.

Checking afterward in cases i missed something:
$ sudo apt-cache policy elogind
elogind:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: (none)
$ sudo apt-cache policy elogind:i386
elogind:i386:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: (none)

And here is my /etc/apt/preferences
Althougth as i noted  the libpam-ck-connector didnt work.

                                                
Package: elogind
Pin: release a=stable
Pin-Priority: -1

Package: elogind:i386
Pin: release a=stable
Pin-Priority: -1

Package: libpam-ck-connector
Pin: release a=stable
Pin-Priority: 1001

Please for anyone usiing  Daedalus with sway , seatd] and libpam-ck-connector it would be great to hear how you installed packages that try to remove libpam-ck-connector or pull elogind.

#115 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Default dhcp client floods my syslog » 2023-09-17 15:44:15

Its a clean netinstal installation. I did nothing out of the ordinary. Except now that i installed udchpc.

#116 Hardware & System Configuration » Default dhcp client floods my syslog » 2023-09-16 23:18:28

chomwitt
Replies: 6

Devuan release: Daedalus
Installed on: PC

dpkg -l  | grep dhcp
ii  isc-dhcp-client                        4.4.3-P1-2                      amd64        DHCP client for automatically obtaining an IP address
ii  isc-dhcp-common                        4.4.3-P1-2                      amd64        common manpages relevant to all of the isc-dhcp packages

Trying to tail my /var/log/syslog i see that is constantly flooded with messages:

2023-09-16T21:06:58.845413+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18775]: Failed to get interface index: No such device
2023-09-16T21:06:58.845422+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18775]:
2023-09-16T21:06:58.845426+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18775]: If you think you have received this message due to a bug rather
2023-09-16T21:06:58.845430+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18775]: than a configuration issue please read the section on submitting
2023-09-16T21:06:58.845434+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18775]: bugs on either our web page at www.isc.org or in the README file
2023-09-16T21:06:58.845438+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18775]: before submitting a bug.  These pages explain the proper
2023-09-16T21:06:58.845441+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18775]: process and the information we find helpful for debugging.
2023-09-16T21:06:58.845445+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18775]:
2023-09-16T21:06:58.845449+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18775]: exiting.
2023-09-16T21:06:59.885543+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18786]: Internet Systems Consortium DHCP Client 4.4.3-P1
2023-09-16T21:06:59.885550+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18786]: Copyright 2004-2022 Internet Systems Consortium.
2023-09-16T21:06:59.885553+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18786]: All rights reserved.
2023-09-16T21:06:59.885556+03:00 enous-devuan dhclient[18786]: For info, please visit https://www.isc.org/software/dhcp/

Those lines keep repating.
For now i will try to instal   udhcpc.
Interestingly udhcpc wont show any conflicts with isc-dhcp-client   . Shouldnt it?

Also i noticed that
$ update-alternatives --get-selections doenst have a dhcp entry. But couldnt have one since there are more than one dchp clients and deamons?

#117 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Sway with seatd » 2023-09-14 10:57:48

thanks stopAI .
I see the broad picture now . How PAM is a common authentication functionality library-service .
I ll try to dig little deeper and see how seatd- consolekit2-pam and greetd work together. Because in first glance apt depents fields dont offer any insigths and reading the project's sites seems that consolekit2 functonality overalps seatd.

ps: how to stop AI ? I think by creating p2p AI and fediverse AI ?

#118 Re: Desktop and Multimedia » Sway with seatd » 2023-09-11 16:01:48

but why do i need PAM to access my pc that i am the only user ?

#119 Re: Installation » suspend on straight Wayland setup » 2023-09-10 22:59:59

i have created also the Index» Desktop and Multimedia» Sway with seatd post. Perhaps we could share our experiences with sway on Daedalus there in one thread ?

#120 Desktop and Multimedia » Sway with seatd » 2023-09-10 22:40:55

chomwitt
Replies: 7

I was happy to read in Daedalus release notes:

### Wayland GUI without elogind

Users can now enjoy a wayland desktop without elogind by installing
libpam-ck-connector, sway and seatd.

The main reason is that i like to have options and secondly (but not least important) i like to have a system that feels less opaque regarding the functionality offered by each package.

So i started a desktopless fresh installation into my PC and i gradually installed various packages in order to setup a decent , ligthweight desktop based on sway but without elogind and using seatd.

For reason that i dont currently undrestand sway wont start unless  libpam-ck-connector
is installed. (that package is mentioned also in  'Devuan without elogind' by Iggy64 but again with no much explanation.

So sway starts by command line and  i am happy but various application try to pull elogind and also to remove libpam-ck-connector.
Example:

$ sudo apt-get install calibre
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  libpam-ck-connector libsystemd0
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  blt calibre calibre-bin eject elogind ...

So i try:

$ sudo apt-get install calibre elogind-
..
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  libpam-ck-connector
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  blt calibre calibre-bin dummy-logind
...

What can i do in that case ?

#121 Re: Devuan » Devuan without elogind » 2023-09-04 22:38:11

In a fresh install of Daedalus with no desktop i installed:
$ sudo apt-get install elogind-  seatd sway
$ sway
XDG_RUNTIME_DIR is not set in the enviroment , aborting.

$ ps -aux | grep seatd
root  - - - -  /usr/sbin/seatd -g video

$ id
... (sudo) .. (video) ..

Strange.. but after installing :libpam-ck-connector  i saw some progress.
I say 'strange' because i have not a clue what that package does..

Ok after also installing firmware-amd-graphics , i can start by $ sway

Now although sway runs ok when ever i try to install a file manager like pcmanfm , pcmanfm-qt, thunar , dolphin
i get 'libpam-ck-connector ' will be removed. And when that happens sway wont start.

I also installed 'greetd' but i dont know how to start the login gui screen.

#122 Re: News & Announcements » Daedalus is stable » 2023-09-04 20:04:28

Congratulations to the Devuan team.

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