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jue-gen wrote:Unfortunately, nobody writes HTML in the editor these days.
I'm pretty sure that a few people in this very forum still do. And I'm one of those
Ahhh, that feels good ... 👍
jue-gen wrote:Do I see it right that you can only use KDE Plasma in Devuan if you want Wayland for security reasons?
I believe you can use GNOME on Devuan (which uses Wayland by default) but I don't think you want that. LOL.
If you want to use KDE with Wayland, I would recommend waiting for Daedulus or using Ceres because 5.26+ has far better support than 5.20. Its still buggy, but far less than the version in Chimaera.
Yes, that's right, I don't really want Gnome. Apart from that, it probably doesn't run that well on Devuan either.
I use KDE Plasma 5.26.90 with Wayland on Daedalus. Strangely, I get error messages when I start it with X11. When I start it with Wayland, they don't appear.
So far I am quite satisfied. There are minor problems I have with it: The memory requirement is high, but that is more a theoretical problem. What has annoyed me is the clipboard, which I use intensively. I prefer to work with Diodon, because in Diodon I only have to select and click an entry and it is already pasted. I haven't been able to do that with the Plasma clipboard. Then, for example, there are also problems with a black screen, which also occurs in connection with mounting external USB storage devices. I then have to go to a TTY and reboot.
Yes, Gnome is supposed to work very well with Wayland. But -I think- if you want Gnome, you can also use Debian with systemd. Therefore Mate was interesting for me. But that is not yet so far. It's like LXQt. There is also already intensively prepared for Wayland.
Well, I sometimes fluctuate a lot from one to the other. I might just stay with KDE Plasma with Wayland for now.
MATE is not usable as a Wayland session. ...
Yes, I discovered that this morning after installation as well. Do I see it right that you can only use KDE Plasma in Devuan if you want Wayland for security reasons?
Do you know about Project Gemini? Produces sane web pages . . .
Some time ago I heard about it. Yes, that is interesting ...
Oh, what I just found is quite interesting in this context after all (it's in German, but the charts are probably globally understandable):
https://gnulinux.ch/ressourcenverbrauch … umgebungen
Addendum: I missed an English source, it's here:
https://itvision.altervista.org/linux-d … usage.html
... But the main "intruder" is modern sites, with their "decorations", browsers are forced to support them, although, in most cases, they are completely unnecessary.
Yes, I see it the same way. Unfortunately, nobody writes HTML in the editor these days. For many pages that would be enough and it would be better for the eye and orientation than those horrible pages created with CMS tools like Wordpress. If the actual information of a page in the source code is only 0.5%, then something is wrong. This code bloat is sick and it costs masses of electrical energy. We have the same thing with HTML mails. I once read that 1 less nuclear power plant would be needed on earth if everyone composing HTML mails switched to TXT mails.
... Chimaera with 2G and 5G ... Daedalus with 2G and 5G
Yes, there is no difference or no significant difference.
For me it looks like this with Daedalus:
free -h
total used free shared buff/cache available
recovery mode 14 Gi 473 Mi 14 Gi 1.1 Mi 172 Mi 14 Gi
KDE Plasma Wayland 14 Gi 1,5 Gi 13 Gi 35 Mi 750 Mi 13 Gi
I find 473 Mi in recovery mode relatively high. That was the memory consumption including Xfce4 in the past. Less was used with LXQT and even less with LXDE.
Well, of course you also get something for this increased memory consumption. I don't want to grumble. But if you want an up-to-date system with Wayland for security reasons, it starts to get difficult with older systems.
... Therefore, I decided long ago to simply trust in my kernel memory management overlords. Or something like that. :-)
Yes, exactly. I have also reached that point. Why shouldn't the RAM be used? It is there and it should not be there uselessly. That's why I don't worry much anymore when KDE Plasma consumes a bit more, especially when there is so much RAM. The system is probably intelligent enough.
It's all not so simple. During my research I found that unused memory is actually wasted memory. Linux keeps data in main memory (RAM) as long as it is not needed for running or restarted programs. This data in RAM does not interfere, but it speeds up a lot when it is needed. The memory management regulates this. Therefore, the output of free is difficult to interpret. free says how much memory the system is using in advance, free does not say how much is actually needed at the moment. I just found this out in my research. Whether I have represented it all correctly, I don't know. Anyway, I mean that the result of free does not represent what the system actually needs right now.
amd64 devuan desktop-live isos (xfce) in qemu with 3G ram. ...
Each release uses more resources. Run ps_mem.py to see that each program uses more resources in each release. I've been watching this for over 20 years and it's consistent.
Yes, but now it would be interesting to know if 3G ram uses less memory than 8G ram or 16G ram or 32G ram.
... EXE - Devuan with TDE https://exegnulinux.net/ ...
Wow, lots of stuff to think about. EXE GNU/LINUX: I hear about it for the first time ...
... but i believe that KDE Plasma have the best and newest support for Wayland.
Yes, it could be. But Gnome causes less problems than KDE Plasma with Wayland and maybe the Mate people got the technology for Wayland from Gnome. Maybe I should just test it.
I'm also not sure if Wayland has been implemented in Mate as fully as in KDE Plasma yet.
Thanks Nili, I can do something with that.
I thought so, but I didn't know it for sure:
The more RAM you have installed, the more it going to use.
On my desktop, where I'm writing right now, RAM may be consumed quietly. I don't begrudge the system that. But I also have other computers where RAM has to be saved. There startx / openbox is actually interesting. But here the memory consumption is mainly caused by browsers like Firefox. Then also other browsers etc. must be chosen.
I'm not interested in saving as much RAM as possible, but I'm still interested in the correlations. This is a purely technical interest.
Best regards
I read that Mate 1.26 implemented Wayland for Atril, System Monitor, Pluma, Terminal and other components of the desktop. In Daedalus Wayland 1.26.0-1 is available. My question: who do you think supports Wayland better, KDE Plasma or Mate? I just want to use the desktop environment that supports Wayland better.
... I don't think 420 MB used is that bad in this day and age.
No, it's actually not bad. And it fits with how I experienced it with Chimaera. The jump came for me only with Daedalus.
Using XFCE/Firefox, & having been on the internet for some time now, here is my memory usage.....
$ free -m total used free shared buff/cache available Mem: 3731 993 1693 255 1044 2251 Swap: 255 0 255This shows that the problem is really the KDE desktop.
This is how it looks here:
$ free -m
gesamt benutzt frei gemns. Puffer/Cache verfügbar
Speicher: 15359 1547 13331 36 786 13811
Swap: 979 0 979Yes, KDE requires a lot. Gnome but even more, I think. In the past, LXDE needed about 300, Xfce4 about 430, LXQt about 400 directly after startup. But as I said, it also depends on which services are started. I used to have KDE Plasma running at about 600 right after startup.
Maybe it has nothing to do with it, but I mean, at least at the same time as the 6* kernel arrived, the memory consumption went up.
I am undecided where to put this topic. Therefore, I simply put it here. It also affects the future development of Devuan:
I increasingly notice that the need for memory is growing. I use Daedalus. Right now KDE Plasma needs 1.5Gi right after startup. Of course this depends on everything that is started with the desktop environment. Therefore I don't want to compare hard numbers here. But my impression is that the system with KDE Plasma demands twice as much RAM, Xfce4, LXQt and LXDE roughly two or three times. I observed this on a ThinkPad with 8 Gi and a desktop with 16 Gi. About 1.5Gi right after startup I think is worth mentioning. What do you guys think?
lxdm and sddm both run X as root. To check that, run
ps aux |grep X
Thanks for this! It looks like I'll have to give it some thought. I would be interested in more information on this topic and strategies for improvement.
... The default Xfce desktop for Devuan uses SLiM or LightDM and both run X under the root user so both are vulnerable to this exploit.
Starting the desktop via GDM or startx will cause X to be run under the normal user and so avoid this vulnerability completely. ... )
Perhaps I have not understood the problem correctly. SLiM or LightDM is clear. But I am thinking about it:
How is it with SDDM?
When I start Plasma Wayland, that is o.k.
But if I start e.g. LXDE with SDDM, how is that.
... I like KDE applications, I do not like KDE Plasma. ...
Yes, I can understand that very well.
Wayland is apparently more secure. By the way, I liked to use KDE applications in LXDE or Xfce. Of course it was also very nice in LXQt. Now I came back to KDE (I started with KDE in 2001 [SuSE 7.2]) because I wanted Wayland and I like the KDE applications. Right now I like it quite a bit.
Have a nice rest of the weekend - best regards
Addendum: in continuous use, however, I now actually notice some problems. For example, the taskbar is gone from time to time, nothing can be inserted from the cache, etc. In LXQt, which I use in parallel on the same computer, these problems do not occur ... but there again I have no Wayland ![]()
... I just stuck with KDE.
I always had trouble with KDE Plasma and Wayland. I've cursed it and wished it to hell. But your post triggered me yesterday to try it again (Daedalus). At least no crashes I noticed. And Wayland runs. I'm still reluctant, but I'm also optimistic and hope that it will be a usable and recommendable system when Dadalus becomes stable....
Yes (No???
), it doesn't work on my chimaera installation. The OP referenced Debian unstable, so it probably hasn't worked its way down yet. If it does work its way down.
Unfortunately, I don't have a daedalus installation to try it on, but it does work on ceres.
With Daedalus (descended from Bookworm) it is available.
I have added the line and commented out everything else for now until Daedalus is stable:
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged daedalus main non-free contrib non-free-firmwareNala works well with it:
nala update && nala upgrade && nala clean && nala autopurge && nala autoremoveEverything looks good.
Debian apparently now recommends users who already have non-free and/or contrib in their sources to add the non-free-firmware entry to ensure that future access to non-free software continues:
deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ unstable main contrib non-free non-free-firmwareDo I have to do the same for the Devuan-sources-list?
Devuan has something missing in the alsa department, there's a value not saved in mate-media : Sound Preferences -> Hardware -> Profile, not persisting over reboot.
Ah, o.k., thank you. It does not affect my work with the computer. However, it is strange that I have the message on desktop PC, but not on my ThinkPad, although it is exactly the same system.
Best regards