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#26 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-03-03 07:52:30

No, I don't have to delete 'user', and noautologin does work with or without persistence. I've been doing it this way for about 15 years. Before devuan existed I was doing this with debian. I guess we're not doing the same thing.

Are you talking about basic Poor Man's install (PMI) here? That is my use case, and it seems yours is different.

Here is the situation straight from Devuan boot on my ordinary PMI. I haven't had the chance to login...

user@devuan:~$ cat /proc/cmdline
boot=live config quiet splash initrd=(hd0,0)/boot/dev611/initrd.img  bootfrom=/dev/sda2 live-media-path=dev611/live0 persistence persistence-path=dev611s/pers0 keyboard-layouts=no noautologin 
user@devuan:~$ whoami
user

In a PMI, the live squashfs is copied to hard disk, a persistence volume is prepared, and the original kernel and inird is used for booting. I haven't done any modifications, and if the noautologin directive is honored, which it is not at present, there is no need for further modifications for a rather general use case.
The only way for me to make it work 'out of the box', is deleting the user 'user'. Which is not defined by default in Devuan, I created it for testing. So the bug (which may very well be intentional from the Debian live team) is masked in the default setup.
But it is prepared for 'user', this is the unmodified content of the sudoers extension file:

user@devuan:~$ sudo cat /etc/sudoers.d/live
user ALL=(ALL) NOPASSWD: ALL

#27 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-03-03 07:27:00

Each live-config script writes a  'state' file to /var/lib/live/config/ . Each script is configured to exit doing nothing if it's own state file exists, meaning it has already run OR another script has written it's state file in order to disable it (example: slim writes a state file for xinit so xinit's script won't run and cause a conflict)

Thank you for pointing to the mechanisms in use here!

#28 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-03-03 07:19:29

You know this is a Devuan forum? Why do you pick here on the Debian live behaviour? If its a bug file it against the Debian bug tracker.

Because it is relevant for the startup issue this thread is about. Furthermore, the Debian live  team may not consider it a bug. E.g. if they are against permanent use of live images with persistence, it may be intended behavior. It makes safe use of this more difficult.
Furthermore, we are here to work on alternatives to upstream decisions. At least that was my understanding.

#29 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Two HDDs: Which is sda1? » 2026-03-01 19:41:17

On boot, I can tell one from the other by it's name (one is Seagate, the other is some weird combination of letters and numbers). My current OS is installed on Seagate and I don't want to wipe it away (yet), but the other has an old version of another distro that I would replace with Devuan.

Boot order is Seagate first, then ST1234whatever. Does that mean the first boot disk is sad1 and the other - the one I want to install Devuan on - would be sda2?

If you download the live Xfce ISO and transfer it to a USB stick, you get (at least I get) an ordinary Xfce user interface on boot. If you click on the terminal icon (may be done as many times as needed), you get a terminal where you can run fdisk

sudo fdisk -l

The listing will tell you how the live Devuan has mapped the drives it has found, and it should be easy to figure out which disk to choose for install. You may post the listing and ask here, if you are not sure. Sda is the drive, sda1, sda2 etc are partitions

Here is the fdisk listing of the sda on the machine I write this (with Devuan 6.1.1 running :-))
It's an 1 TB Samsung SSD SATA disk with 'oldfashioned' MBR partitioning. Fdisk today handles both this and 'modern' GPT partitioning.

Disk /dev/sda: 931.51 GiB, 1000204886016 bytes, 1953525168 sectors
Disk model: Samsung SSD 870 
Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
Disklabel type: dos
Disk identifier: 0xed595e8a

Device     Boot      Start        End    Sectors   Size Id Type
/dev/sda1  *          2048   41945087   41943040    20G  c W95 FAT32 (LBA)
/dev/sda2         41945088   83888127   41943040    20G 83 Linux
/dev/sda3         83888128  230688767  146800640    70G 83 Linux
/dev/sda4        230688768 1953525167 1722836400 821.5G  5 Extended
/dev/sda5        230690816 1677725695 1447034880   690G 83 Linux
/dev/sda6       1677727744 1814042623  136314880    65G 83 Linux
/dev/sda7       1814044672 1953525167  139480496  66.5G 83 Linux

#30 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-03-01 19:12:36

I don't get the same results as you. The noautologin option is working correctly here on two different live-isos.

It does not work when user 'user' is defined, as I noted. This is common behavior on Debian live for years. As long as persistence may be used, this is a bug.
You have to delete 'user' to make noautologin work.

#31 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-27 11:35:49

See 'man live-build' and 'man live-config' for details about the options for the live system.

Sure.
Still, there have been uncovered two bugs here:
1. Lacking noautologin parameter makes live image only run in failsafe mode. Extremely simple to fix.
2. When user 'user' is defined, noautologin does not work, 'user' is logged in. Whatever the Debian live people write in their manuals, this is wrong behavior.
None of these bugs should be left for ordinary users to fix.
But, of course doing nothing about it is also an option.

#32 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-27 09:20:54

Small update: This is really hard-coded on Debian's part. Even with noautologin, user 'user' is automatically logged in when it exists! ;-)

#33 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-27 08:54:33

The default user already exists in devuan live isos. In debian live isos, the default user is created during boot if the option 'config' is included in the command line. I think if you remove that, you'll have the default user again.

The user 'devuan' is not what the Debian live build procedures expect. I just created the default Debian user  'user'  in my PMI install. Works fine. With autologin: User 'user' is logged in.
But I think it may be quite good practice to disable autologin. I just activated it to demonstrate that the problem is there.

#34 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-26 16:04:04

This problem may be solved. And it may seem a bit embarrassing.
Here is the current cmdline

root@devuan:~# cat /proc/cmdline
boot=live config quiet splash initrd=(hd0,1)/boot/dev611/initrd.img  bootfrom=/dev/sda3 live-media-path=dev611/live0 persistence persistence-path=dev611s/pers0 keyboard-layouts=no noautologin 

The only 'failsafe' directive left is noautologin. Because, it seems, the default user is not created. Without any user to serve, the display does not come up.
I should have suspected this yesterday, when only root login was accepted. But I couldn't believe it was that simple.
With the default user in place, I would guess this will work out of the box ;-)

#35 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-26 13:33:57

And I noticed that in the grub menu created by live-sdk, the failsafe entry is missing 'nomodeset'. It's only in the syslinux menu. In refractasnapshot, 'nomodeset' is in the failsafe entries in both menus.

I tried first with that, no luck.
And now I'm happily running 'failsafe' without nomodeset ;-)

#36 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-26 13:31:42

Here is the output from my 'failsafe' PMI on a Probook 440 G6 i5/24G:

root@devuan:~# inxi -G
Graphics:
  Device-1: Intel WhiskeyLake-U GT2 [UHD Graphics 620] driver: i915 v: kernel
  Device-2: Quanta HP HD Camera driver: uvcvideo type: USB
  Display: x11 server: X.Org v: 21.1.16 driver: X: loaded: modesetting
    unloaded: fbdev,vesa dri: iris gpu: i915 resolution: 1: 1920x1080~60Hz
    2: 1920x1080~60Hz
  API: EGL v: 1.5 drivers: iris,swrast platforms: gbm,x11,surfaceless,device
  API: OpenGL v: 4.6 compat-v: 4.5 vendor: intel mesa v: 25.0.7-2
    renderer: Mesa Intel UHD Graphics 620 (WHL GT2)
  Info: Tools: api: eglinfo,glxinfo de: xfce4-display-settings x11: xdriinfo,
    xdpyinfo, xprop, xrandr

It does not tell me much, so I would be happy to be informed about anything interesting here! :-)

I don't use legacy Grub interactively on startup, partly because the same can be done reproducibly by a set of different stanzas.
Here is the basic 'failsafe' version. Apparmor is omitted,

title Devuan 6.1.1 64 bits Xfce live sda3 v0  persistence sda6 
      root(hd0,0) 
      kernel  (hd0,1)/boot/dev611/vmlinuz boot=live config quiet splash initrd=(hd0,1)/boot/dev611/initrd.img  bootfrom=/dev/sda3 live-media-path=dev611/live0 persistence persistence-path=dev611s/pers0 keyboard-layouts=no noapic noapm nodma nomce nolapic nosmp vga=normal noautologin 
      initrd (hd0,1)/boot/dev611/initrd.img
 

Any other 'no'-parameters that seem superfluous?

#37 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-26 12:59:19

If you want to boot the ISO in a VM, then obviously it is the VMs (emulated) hardware that is interesting, and not at all the host hardware.

No, that's not at all obvious, because any emulation has to be output through the host hardware. It may be important in some situations, but through nearly 30 years of running OS in emulators, I have never needed to dig deeply into the emulated hardware to solve problems.
The VM's emulated hardware may not even be that well defined.

Furthermore, I responded to a posted native inxi-G listing with my own.  You can obtain the corresponding listing from the VM by installing and running inxi there. To me, the information is of little help, as the real problem seems to lie elsewhere:
Behavior problems under kvm and running natively were identical, as far as I could see.
When failsafe mode worked perfectly both under emulation and - when tried - running natively, what is the probable relevance of digging into the emulated hardware?

So what does the "failsafe" boot use that is different from other boot options?

Quite a lot. You may check it in the grub.cfg on the ISO.  Maybe vga=normal is an important parameter.

#38 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-26 12:16:48

Update:
Adding the kernel parameters for the failsafe alternative to legacy grub's booting menu for a similar Debian entry, running the squashfs copied from the ISO to disk goes very well. Even persistent store, Debian-style, worked on the first attempt. So, now I seem to have a working Poor Man's Install, using legacy Grub.
The failsafe problem is still not sorted out, but at least there is a good workaround for now.
After a slew of complaints about wrong image sizes, wxmaxima seems to work. Not bad!

#39 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-26 10:07:46

Here are instructions for live-sdk:
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=551

I wonder if recreating Debian 13.3.0 live with the SDK version they have used, and then adapting the procedure to the Devuan 6.X context could be a viable way to proceed? From the end products, there does not seem to be large differences from 11.X to 13.X. The same kernel parameter setup works, for example.

#40 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-26 09:58:42

So those where reports of the graphics setup of the virtual machines?

Please tell me what makes you believe that. If you read what I have reported, you will see that I have used a Probook 450 i5/24 GB G5 and a Probook 440 i5/24G G6. The listing is from the G5, running Debian 11.2.0 LXDE. The G6 is running either  Debian 11.2.0 LXDE or Debian 13.3.0 Lxqt.
Identical results wrt the ISO, failsafe mode works perfectly everywhere. I also tested the nonfree image uploaded. Same results.

I can't see this questioning is getting anywhere.

#41 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-26 08:34:05

In which world are those two logs "much the same"??? Maybe in a world where you ignore differences...

Please tell which of the differences are clearly relevant for the issue we are discussing.
The important context here, is that nobody seems to get the graphics on the ISO running under QEMU/KVM in any simple way, and we wonder why.
While failsafe mode works perfectly for me, as I have reported. I have also pointed out that two different pc's, with different displays, behave the same for me.

#42 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-26 08:17:45

Mine: Much the same, it seems. On HP Probook 450 G5  Debian 11.2.0 LXDE

Graphics:  Device-1: Intel UHD Graphics 620 driver: i915 v: kernel 
           Device-2: Lite-On HP HD Camera type: USB driver: uvcvideo 
           Display: server: X.Org 1.20.11 driver: loaded: modesetting unloaded: fbdev,vesa resolution: 1: 1920x1080 
           2: 3440x1440~50Hz 
           OpenGL: renderer: Mesa Intel UHD Graphics 620 (KBL GT2) v: 4.6 Mesa 20.3.5 

#43 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-25 23:51:59

Thanks a lot for the responses! Useful!
Still, no explanation why failsafe option and root login works like a charm in the simplest setup:

sudo kvm -m 2048 devuan_excalibur_6.1.1_amd64_desktop-live.iso &

Now I have tried it on two Probooks, 440/450 i5 24GB G5&G6, with Debian 11.2 LXDE and 13.3 Lxqt. Exactly the same results. And trying to run from RAM ends in kernel panic.
Is 'failsafe' kind of kernel parameter so I can use it in the GRUB kernel stanza?
The nonfree-ISO behaved the same way for me: Everything works in failsafe mode, otherwise black screen.

#44 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-25 17:43:19

Seemed to work exactly the same way. Using

sudo qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -m 2048 devuan_excalibur_6.1.1_amd64_desktop-live.iso &

did not help at all with the graphics problem. That has to be sorted out.
If I can get some tool use instructions, I might be able to make that Lxqt-live-ISO I wish for myself ;-)
I need a runnable setup than can be used almost everywhere, therefore squashfs'ing  an ordinary install won't do for me.

#45 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-25 17:24:09

Small update:
I could even run

apt-get update 

and

apt install rxvt-unicode.

From ISO under kvm. Install went fine, wherever that landed...
Could I then run

urxvt &

and get a working terminal window? Yes.

#46 Re: Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-25 17:09:55

Thank you very much! From your advice, I have experimented some more,  and I have (partially) good news.
This simple use of kvm has always worked, and in recent years, I have only used kvm in a very primitive way, just checking the functionality of the ISO image. E.g. 12.7.0:

sudo kvm -m 2048 debian-live-12.7.0-amd64-lxde.iso &

So, i tried the same for 6.1.1:

sudo kvm -m 2048 devuan_excalibur_6.1.1_amd64_desktop-live.iso &

Opening screen comes up. No luck in ordinary graphics mode, BUT when I now tried failsafe and root login, everything seems to work! Even web browsing with Firefox (- a standard test with Debian images). And even smoother with image run from m2 disk than from USB flash. Very good.
So, next question is, how to fix this in the more general display case, and get it up and running in a Poor Man's Install (PMI)?
I'm happy to start with with Xfce, but Lxqt should be a choice, I think :-)

#47 Installation » [SOLVED] Display problems with 6.1.1 live » 2026-02-24 21:21:06

tyder
Replies: 46

I have tried 6.1.1 from USB stick. - After a bit of strange behavior and a couple of writing attempts, which others have also reported, I booted a HP Probook 440 G6, and XFCE looked very nice. No problems with WIFI either. Mounting internal and external partitions went just fine, but I often got r/w error messages at ordinary administrative tasks.

Trying to run the squashfs image was worse. I can boot and run the Debian 13.3.0-Lxqt ISO just fine in kvm, that's the first check of such images for me. 
But doing the same with the Devuan ISO produced neither error messages nor display output. I think this should be possible.
Booting itself was likely not the issue. When setting up the squashfs image with kernel and initrd, and starting it with legacy grub, everything seems to go just fine with the init processes until X11 startup. The display goes black - looks like the same behavior as with kvm. All the Debian images back to 6 have worked with this procedure, and I'm writing this on a remastered 13.3.0-install.  So it simply can't be that troublesome to fix.

So, I would be extremely happy with a release where this works out of the box, and just out of greed, I also wish for an Lxqt live companion to the Xfce-ISO.
If I can help in any meaningful way, that would be very fine for me. I think the Trixie/Excalibur releases could be a point where several long time Debian users, like myself, start to phase in Devuan. Poor Man's Installs, like the ones I use, are a nice low-threshold approach to such conversions.

#48 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » How are 'live' disks that can boot on many systems created? » 2026-02-24 10:25:35

Is it so impossible to create an HDD that can boot on multiple systems like a "live" CD, that no one can even comprehend the question?

I have just set  up HDDs to work like 'live' CDs, with persistence. It's not hard at all. And the inevitable disk crash problems become almost trivial to handle. Full system backup may amount to copy one file.

Has anybody tested exactly how much is won by doing this driver selection and tailoring vs just running a live system with persistence?
A live system with persistence may, generally, be moved around with small problems. And when the compressed 'live' part is < 10 GB, space is not a problem. Slower running might be, but even 15 years ago, that was not a problem for me, with adequate RAM and good disks.
Booting should not be a problem when a small selection of hardware is targeted, and in any case, there seem to be several solutions to that.

#49 Re: Other Issues » Is it possible to install a package permanently on Live ? » 2026-02-24 09:29:57

I haven't tried with Devuan yet, but I have handled Debian 13.3.0 with complete success. Both on USB sticks and external SSD disks.
I have found legacy grub to be the most reliable companion, and I haven't needed any special tools.
I use three partitions (minimally)

1. An ext2 partition for booting
2. An ext4 partition for compressed live images
3. An ext4 partition for persistent storage
All these partitions can hold several OS versions, and one version (I have used Debian 11.2.0 as the basis for the last 4 years) may go through several iterations (typically 3-6) of compressed live images during a lifetime of 2-5 years.

This can be done on a 32+ GB USB 3.X stick with 30+ MB/s writing times. Using a slower stick is hardly worthwhile. A SATA disk or an m2-disk in an external case is simpler in daily use, but hardly necessary. 64GB is a practical mimimum, 256 GB kind of sweet spot. If you think you need more, you haven't really tried to be space efficient. If you are sure you need less, you have probably not lived through the full OS version upgrade blues.

Using live versions with persistent storage are, traditionally, called Poor Man's Installs (PMI). There is a tradition going back (at least) to Klaus Knopper and KNOPPIX. He made a 32-bit version-hybrid Debian derivative, therefore very hard to upgrade, but very, very useful for a couple of years.

In the Debian context, a Poor Man's Install is based on 4 files:

1. vmlinuz - the kernel. Which does not have to be changed during the lifetime of an OS version, but of course, YMMV.
2. initrd.gz - often Busybox-based init code. Hackable, I once made a pure 64-bits Knoppix version starting with a modified initrd.
3. filesystem.squashfs - the compressed live image. Which you may recreate as needed. I just expanded the original Debian 3.2 GB Lxqt image to 8.8 GB, including ca 250 R-cran packages plus GIMP, VLC, WXMaxima etc. If you think you have to grow the image way above 10 GB, consider Docker for some of the large components.
4. persistence. A loop-mounted overlay file system, typically 2-20 GB. No, you don't have to restrict yourself to small programs when you work based on a live system. Oracle XE, Postgresql and even Axiom (math theorem proving etc) work just fine.

In the booting partition, booting files are organized in directories by OS releases. For example. I have  deb910 (LXDE) , deb1120 (LXDE), deb1330Qt (LXQt) to mention a few. Upgrading kernel/initrd is of course possible here, and may be best practice. But I have never experienced an urgent need for that, and I think it is safer to start a new OS version install than upgrading the kernel. This partition is mostly read-only.

The live image partition is read-only in everyday use. But it may be updated several times.

The persistence partition holds 1-2 persistence files for each OS version, union mounted with the compressed image: The one in current use and eventually the previous. When it starts to get full, it is time for 'remastering', simply copying the whole union file system into a directory, squashfs-compressing it into a new live image and setting up a new persistence file.

Surprisingly, old legacy grub is just fine for booting in this context, and it even works on a USB stick set up with three (or more) Linux partitions. Here is the booting stanza for Lxqt Debian 13.3.0 with one 'remastering'. This is on an internal disk, using a stick would be similar.

title Debian 13.30 64 bits lxqt live sda3 v1 persistence sda6 
      root(hd0,0) 
      kernel  (hd0,1)/boot/deb1330Qt/vmlinuz boot=live config quiet splash initrd=(hd0,1)/boot/deb1330Qt/initrd.img  bootfrom=/dev/sda3 live-media-path=deb1330/live1 persistence persistence-path=deb1330Qts/pers1  keyboard-layouts=no
      initrd (hd0,1)/boot/deb1330Qt/initrd.img

#50 Re: News & Announcements » How you can help Devuan » 2017-09-14 06:15:16

To bridge the gap between package maintainers and users, maybe we could organize some kind of interest groups with maintainer(s) and more deeply interested users?  I think that would also be a way to more easily recruit new package managers. 
A concrete example: R has a rapidly growing plethora of packages. They may be downloaded and installed from within R, but that often implies extensive compilation.  So packages in wide use should be offered as native, like they to a wide extent are in Debian/Devuan.  So far, I don't have the time or the competence to take responsibility for any package, but I'd be happy to assist, and over time "upgrade" myself to maintainer level.

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