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#1 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice » 2021-08-01 22:05:34

If you go to a smorgasbord and eat everything offered

1. It's enough to select 2 items to achieve this effect; that does not count as "eating everything offered".

2. There was no lack of self control in the scenarios I mentioned

3. The point of a "Cancel" button is to cater to the user which has not exerted sufficient control or good sense in the first place, and selected something that, in hindsight, they should not have.

#2 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice » 2021-08-01 20:48:20

golinux wrote:

That would depend on the definition of "reasonable person".  Installing multiple desktops with a distribution that strives for simplicity and doing one thing and doing it well seems like a user/distro mismatch to me.

Which distribution strives for simplicity? Debian? Don't know how you figure that, considering the immense number of packages in the main repository.

Also, the user gets the tasksel dialog. In that dialog s/he is offered to select multiple items. There is no cue - visual, auditory, textual - that there's any problem with selecting multiple items. If doing so is considered unreasonable, there would have been radio buttons for the different desktop environments. So, that's one argument for reasonableness.

The other argument is that the person installing does not know which desktop environment the user will prefer. And - it could be more than one user, each with a different preference (e.g. one who is accustomed to Lubuntu with LXQt, and another that's accustomed to Mint with Cinnamon). That's a second argument why it is reasonable to select multiple DEs.

A final reason for this selection is wanting to make available apps originating in the different DEs to users of all DEs.

#3 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice » 2021-08-01 19:22:01

I'm pretty sure that dialogue is only displayed because you had more than one compatible window manager installed.

Oh, yes, for sure. But it is not some clever hacker's trick to select a few more items on the tasksel list. What I'm saying is that it's not enough that newbie-friendly behavior be exhibited when following the most common path through the installer (e.g. not change almost anything on the task selection dialog); it should be exhibited for every path through the installer which a reasonable person performing the installation may follow.

#4 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice » 2021-07-31 20:21:30

Too many complicated choices - it would overwhelm the average user.

The user should not be offered any of these choices. Just a "Cancel" button in addition to "Ok". Or, as suggested in this post - no dialog at all, and just a login into the default window manager.

It is not reasonable to force a first-time user to make a selection in a dialog they do not expect, between items they don't recognize, without an option to get cold feet and say "cancel".

#5 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice » 2021-07-31 17:30:34

The only way "back" would be to kill the desktop that's in the middle of loading itself and restart the display manager to log into one of the other desktops.

I had actually assumed that window comes up before the session starts. But even with this being the case, then, yes, you should be able to abort, restart the display manager and reconsider your options. Maybe you want to log in as a different user? Choose a different display environment? Change some language or accessibility settings? Or just ask some other person to come help you? You should have that choice.

... that is, if you get that window at all. If a default WM were to be chosen, it would be a different matter.

#6 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice » 2021-07-30 20:06:29

Are you sure that the "culprit" here is lxqt upstream? More specifically, are you saying that I shouldn't even reportbug against the lxqt package?

#7 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice » 2021-07-30 19:57:47

@Head_on_a_Stick: Openbox is fine. Another choice would also be fine. The issue here is that if somehow the window manager selection dialog has been opened, you can't abort/cancel, that's all. Also, I can manage - but it shouldn't be the case that every Devuan Chimaera user (who has selected a few desktop environments with tasksel), logging in the first time, gets stuck in this dialog.

#8 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice » 2021-07-30 18:43:38

@Head_on_a_Stick can you be a little more explicit? fsmithred posted a link only because he(?) made a single reply on two threads. With your link - I'm not sure what exactly you're telling me, plus it's off-site.

#9 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #10: We will take Jerusalem! » 2021-07-29 19:28:16

@fsmithred: I should mention I did not check the time in the Console before changing the preferences. So it's possible the timezone was set correctly, but the pref dialog somehow got messed up.

#10 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #10: We will take Jerusalem! » 2021-07-27 17:03:29

bgstack15 wrote:

You could try to confirm that /etc/timezone is a symlink to the relevant file under /usr/share/zoneinfo.

Actually, I couldn't since I already set the timezone.

... however, after having set it - it's still not a symlink, it's a plain text file. It now contains Asia/Jerusalem.

bgstack15 wrote:

You can also just run tzselect(8) as root to set it [again].

That's not the point of this report. The point is that there's a bug with the distribution (or one of the packages) which causes this to happen. It should be fixed _in the distribution_; I can take care of my own system.

#11 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #9: meld'ing as root gives errors » 2021-07-25 17:31:26

xinomilo wrote:

instead of su + command, try `sudo command` . seen no such errors with that.

The point is not me; I can manage (e.g. just ignore the errors). The point is trying to resolve this in the distribution, or the upstream package...

Also, personally, I run sessions as root with more than a single command, so `sudo` every time is annoying...

#12 Re: Installation » My Chimaera install issues #1: Forced manual choice of LXQt WM » 2021-07-25 15:38:39

Magnus wrote:

You do nothing, you just complain.

I'll let that slide, because I haven't linked my forum account anywhere. So, this is the FOSS coding I do. No, none of it is Devuan and it's already more than I can handle.

But you should be aware that your rhetoric is highly confrontational and derogatory.

#13 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #9: meld'ing as root gives errors » 2021-07-25 05:18:51

fsmithred: There are lots of theme components and a bunch of themes. And un/installing these packages doesn't seem to make a difference. Which gtk3 package would you suggest reportbug'ing?

#14 Re: Installation » My Chimaera install issues #1: Forced manual choice of LXQt WM » 2021-07-25 04:40:16

is mostly done by volunteers on a non-profit basis,

And what do I look like to you?

People on the IRC channel ask me to make sure and report any issues when I install Chimaera. So I do, and I get this flak. Why? I didn't report this as a demand for a fix.


And if you want other solutions than those offered, you have to make them yourself. That's how it works.

It's mostly the opposite. Even a person who is an actual programmer can only devote time to work on a very small number of software projects. So, it is more true to say that if you want other solutions than those offered, you mostly cannot and will not ever be able to make them yourself.

We make things for others and others make things for us. That's how it works.

#15 Re: Installation » My Chimaera install issues #1: Forced manual choice of LXQt WM » 2021-07-24 16:17:52

fsmithred wrote:

The user does not get to control the order of package installation during the install of the operating system. That's up to the package manager

The order of package installation is indeed something the user doesn't care about. The default desktop environment is something the person performing the installation (might) care about - but is not given the opportunity to set.

Also, regardless of that - the distribution authors should care about what the default desktop environment is; and it is not reasonable policy for it to be "whatever happens to be installed last".

Finally, be the policy as it may - during installation, the installer should tell you "the default desktop environment will be XYZ", based on your selections up to that point.

, which has to resolve dependencies of the chosen metapackages. The behavior of the alternatives system will make more sense when you read the man page for update-alternatives.

I'm saying it shouldn't matter...


In fact, a default window manager was selected for you.

No. That is, a WM selection means it is loaded and I am not asked about. Just like with the desktop environment: A default choice is made for the user, and unless s/he does something to change it - it sticks.

The lxqt devs thought they should double-check with you, because you had more than one window manager installed. They presented you with a list, and on that list the pre-selected window manager was highlighted. All you had to do was press enter or click OK.

That is the problem. It is not acceptable IMHO for this to occur. Putting the user in front of such a selection dialog before they can be logged in to their first session is jarring and intimidating, and suggests there is a problem with the installation. If the LXQt devs have mistakenly done this, it is up to the distro to make sure that is bypassed and no such choice is required.

Also, the jarring effect is not mitigated by a more friendly dialog, saying something like: "This is your first time starting the LXQt desktop environment. LXQt is currently configured to use the Muffin Window Manager; would you like to proceed with this selection? [No - Change Window Manager] [Yes]"


If you think that behavior should change, you could file a bug report. I'm guessing that behavior comes from the lxqt authors, upstream of debian.

I will, but this is also IMHO a distribution bug, because Debian/Devuan can quash/circumvent this select dialog - and it should. Plus, as I've said above, there should be a more explicit default DE policy.

#16 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #2: Can't abort LXQt WM choice » 2021-07-23 22:02:02

The system does not want to know which desktop environment I prefer; it is asking which window manager I prefer for LXQt. But regardless - I should be able to say: "Wait wait, I don't want to face this choice now let me just go back to where I was before".

#17 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #4: root credentials demanded after login » 2021-07-23 22:00:25

Disabling blueman makes the prompt go away, and re-enabling makes it come back.

#18 Re: Installation » My Chimaera install issues #1: Forced manual choice of LXQt WM » 2021-07-23 21:41:19

LXQt was probably the last desktop to be installed

But there is no user-acknowledged notion of a "last desktop environment to be installed".

so the alternatives system set it as the default, thus replacing any previous default settings.  That's normal behavior of the alternatives system.

But is this the intended Debian/Devuan policy? That is, Devuan defaults to xfce4. If one installs xfce4 + something else, should Devuan default to not-xfce4? And not just that, but have a priority order of defaults based on the order of package installation? Surely that's not right.

And again - even suppose it's legitimate to set LXQt as the default desktop environment. Then, surely a default window manager should be set and used, rather than the user faced with a forced selection dialog.

You can change the default desktop by running update-alternatives --config x-session-manager and if needed, you can change the default window manager with update-alternatives --config x-window-manager

That's not the point of the issues I'm reporting. Of course I can change things. The issue is what should happen during/after installation, as by default, before the user has changed anything.

My tasks were:

task-cinnamon-desktop task-console-productivity task-desktop task-english task-lxqt-desktop task-ssh-server task-xfce-desktop

#19 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #9: meld'ing as root gives errors » 2021-07-23 12:22:43

:-(

... just tell me if you think it's a meld issue or something about the configuration of everything else; and whether you believe Debian would exhibit the same behavior. In both the first and the third case I'll reportbug about meld.

#20 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #11: Everything is a plain text document? » 2021-07-23 12:19:12

Here's what's inside, for example computer.desktop:

[Desktop Entry]
Type=Application
Exec=pcmanfm-qt computer:///
Icon=computer
Name=Computer

When I launch it, I'm warned of an untrusted launcher. If I make it trusted, I now see the icon and the suffix is gone.

I wonder if this is some remnant from when I first logged into LXQt.

#21 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #9: meld'ing as root gives errors » 2021-07-23 11:29:21

So, changing the su behavior fixes the latter errors, but not the former. But how are those Gtk-CRITICAL errors even related to one's path?

#22 Installation » My chimaera install issues #11: Everything is a plain text document? » 2021-07-23 09:47:54

einpoklum
Replies: 2

(This is part of a series of posts following my installation of Devuan Chimaera; for more information see the first post).

I use Cinnamon. After logging on (for the first and every other time), I find 4 files on my desktop: computer.desktop, network.desktop, trash-can.desktop and user-home.desktop. They have the icon of a text file, and their label includes their suffix. Instead, I expect to see: "Computer", "Network", "Trash Can", "Home", with the proper icons, and no ".desktop" extension.

#23 Installation » My chimaera install issues #10: We will take Jerusalem! » 2021-07-23 08:26:31

einpoklum
Replies: 5

(This is part of a series of posts following my installation of Devuan Chimaera; for more information see the first post).

After initial login, in Cinnamon's Preferences | Date & Time, no region and location were selected for a timezone - despite my having selected Asia/Jerusalem during installation (at least, I'm 95% sure I had selected them).

(Next post in the series: Issue #11)

#24 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #6: lxqt-pm shouldn't be autorun on desktop » 2021-07-23 08:06:06

opportunity to learn as well as to actively contribute to the collaborative effort that Devuan is.

I'm doing this because, before installation, I was specifically asked to provide feedback/report issues. That's my contribution. You're asking me to contribute more. Maybe I will, and maybe I won't, depending on the time I have.

Why not you?

Because distro maintainers are likely to usually be able to tell immediately which package an issue is associated with - if it can be said to be package-specific at all. And the latter point is the most difficult to determine. The package in-and-of-itself might be fine, but its combination with others in the distribution may be the cause of the problem.

#25 Re: Installation » My chimaera install issues #3: Misleading LXQt WM choice » 2021-07-23 07:35:07

fsmithred wrote:

This is a good thing

It's a good thing that LXQt supports many window managers. The naming of this entry is not a good thing (and so is the fact that a new user gets this menu, but that was a different issue).

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