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#1 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-05-11 16:20:11

Upgraded to Fedora 36 yesterday once it released as stable. Overall the upgrade process went well, I haven't seen in general how things go on anyhow.

Customs themes works, but there are some inconsistencies naming due to default Light/Dark until the customs hacks find the right path.

At first glance it looks very fine release. I like a lot this release.


Randomly chosed the same background as above.

#2 Re: Other Issues » [SOLVED] tomcat10 on chimaera » 2022-05-04 14:00:07

When Debian sees it ready. This package is in experimental only from Debian packages. There is no sign from sid/testing/stable yet for both Debian/Devuan.

Ask Debian maintainers for the delay or the reason, the only way you can get a concrete answer.

Edit: Also checked Devuan packages about tomcat9. The link below shows versions available. … 9&x=submit

None for tomcat10 yet. … 0&x=submit

This package depends on Debian. Maintainers are Emmanuel Bourg and Tony Mancill. Both relevant emails are on the Debian Packages page.

#3 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-04-23 16:41:40

One last scrot for the kern 5.16.
Edit: A new one with recent 5.17.
Other Edit: Corrected Credits
Scraped Yaru, join Nord.
Nordic Wallpapers | Theme Nordic | Icons Papirus-Dark | Nordic Selection

#4 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-04-20 09:18:22

Welcome noil, Time and Will is the key to cook rice. That's a fine environment of yours.

#5 Re: Installation » chimaera update firefox broken/ linux-image not updated » 2022-04-20 09:01:55

I can't edit my above comment, i wanted to add a solved solution for my Firefox Client-side decoration that prevented me having buttons of minimize|maximize|close on CWM. Full Screen F11 button icons are fixed with below solution aswell.

I simply put it to my home profile and that one fixed having back buttons and titlebar on the customize toolbar.


Also Archi Wiki have a page about many Firefox Tweaks.

I should have googled early about it, but have ignored it until today decide to check it up.
Also, as it was clearly seen, my issue was different from OP, which I apologize for putting my nose on his thread.

#6 Re: Documentation » yad tips and tricks. » 2022-04-16 18:45:02

I had not paid very much attention to yad, thanks to this thread cames to help me having a better gui for logout, reboot and poweroff.

I used dialog for those stuff, but yad to a better rescue.

#7 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-04-06 06:44:05

MiyoLinux wrote:

Venom Linux smile

Looks very clean and a sane distro from your screenshot.

#8 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-04-04 12:20:07

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:



EDIT: I can't change the default theme or icon set. Genius. Good thing I like them best anyway big_smile

I haven't checked beta yet, i only tested a few GTK4 applications, I'm impressed with libadwaita white / dark features. I just hope gnome-tweaks will work soon or later, ofcourse default is fine.

I like Adwaita dark or default too, i use sometimes, but i like way more Ubuntu Yaru now, as i posted above. I use Yaru on Fedora 35 for Shell and GTK apps. If it would made into GNOME 42 i'll be pleased.

I'm waiting to upgrade it when it becomes stable. It is awesome what i have seen so far.

#9 Other Issues » [SOLVED] .sudo_as_admin_successful » 2022-04-01 17:44:10

Replies: 0

Hello! This is a blank text file ".sudo_as_admin_successful" displayed on my $HOME or root very recently everytime i hit "sudo -s user apt-get".

I have never had this file on my home before, and i use sudo for many years just it appears recently of the last update from testing repo. … o&x=submit
up to sudo 1.9.9-1 i remember haven't had this file on my home, something from current testing version 1.9.10-3 it made it show. If i delete it , it will recreated again once i hit successfully logging in sudo -s

I read too many googling stories about it, saw that this empyt file is present for decade. It is not a concern some people said, it is even common that it should be, but why i haven't had it before and why it appears strangely from nothing? I'm not sure it's a bug, something from the distro, or maybe it's my fault somewhere, but i can not locate it. Well, so far i have read without acting.

There was a ticket about this matter.

In fact doesn't bother me very much, just i wonder what is this? anybody from testing repo have this empty file on his home?

My single line from testing

deb daedalus main non-free contrib

sudo version

  Installed: 1.9.10-3
  Candidate: 1.9.10-3
  Version table:
 *** 1.9.10-3 500
        500 daedalus/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

Thanks for reading it.
Edit: adjusted written and links.

------------- SOLVED -------------

Edit2: Today I dealt with this matter, as early i was just reading, but not seriously.

As the user geekley posted. I disabled admin flag by creating a text file to "/etc/sudoers.d/disable_admin_file_in_home" and i put inside

# Disable ~/.sudo_as_admin_successful file
Defaults !admin_flag

Saved! and the empty file ".sudo_as_admin_successful" does not appear anymore on my home folder.

Perhaps latest sudo is compiled with admin flag active as man sudo says

admin_flag   The admin_flag option specifies the path to a file
             that is created the first time a user that is a
             member of the sudo or admin groups runs sudo.  Only
             available if sudo is configured with the
             --enable-admin-flag option.  The default value is

The forward sudo version must have been "The default value none".

#10 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-03-28 20:08:57

Sounds silly, mixing CWM with GNOME Apps aren't that bad.
As usual, thanks to Joe Motohashi for the background.

#11 Re: Hardware & System Configuration » Upgraded to chimaera; now cannot boot » 2022-03-19 10:01:30

- Inxi says Memory: 7.06 GiB used: 725.2 MiB (10.0%) which seems absolutely fine in terms of memory space and loads.

Very straight from Jessie to Chimaera also onwards there is a lot of difference on memory consums, the latters consumes many more ram due to kernel that is hungrier than early versions.

- The System Temperatures: cpu: 10.8 C
Seems to me somewhat low, only if the system is in a room cold enough, positive thing to say, or the measurement is not so accurate.
10.8C it does not sound very normal to me for an uptime: 1h 48m. Yes my initial temperature it is so, but after 1 hour of work it would go 20 and above.

CPU and Memory test from Bios would have been the first step and HDD checkup (smartctl/disks/gsmartcontrol) the second part imo.

#12 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-03-09 14:58:51

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

^ Very nice Nili.

Thanks, same to you about your tight tweaks.

#13 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-03-06 21:14:37

I'm joining HoaS with GNOME things.

To check an BIG External WD settings in Windows i had to temporarily remove Fedora Workstation, ok not only for this reason, but on other hand i wanted to watch Windows 11 once, since had been almost 10 years without stepping on this system for me i thought to give it a try on a real desktop. Despite the big changes that i saw and had been made on Windows campus, I did not stay inside it for more than 30 minutes after i did my disk checks.

That system does not do anything good for my personal usages whatever they do.

So, Back on Fedora 35 with some windows open. Gnome-Music, Files, Mozilla Firefox, Gnome-Terminal.
Gnome-Shell, Blur-my-Shell, Extentions and Gnome-Tweaks.


This is my second version of Fedora, I'm looking forward upgrading to 36 very soon.

In the footsteps of above styles, i set it up the same on Fedora. So, themes=skeuos-gtk, icons=flatery-icons, cursors=bibata_cursor

I have become a GNOME psychopathically in love, for now. smile

#14 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-02-26 11:50:59

Keybinds manually tile from CWM. I used same color Red for focus and unfocus border.

#15 Re: Off-topic » The seitan conundrum » 2022-02-19 11:30:13

@golinux Congratulations for 80 years on your shoulder. WOW 80's Unimaginable, I hope to live so. smile Cheers to you and the above members.

#16 Re: Off-topic » The seitan conundrum » 2022-02-17 11:31:00

golinux wrote:

Thanks Nili. Interesting connection that answers my question (which likely has nothing to do with the name of that beautiful cove).

I discovered macrobiotics in the 70s and it turned my dietary trajectory on its head! That decision has served me well. I used to make seitan, amazake and other labor intensive (and messy) delights but now I'm too old to go through all that and just cook quite simply.  Nothing like a nishime or a cup of ume-sho-kuzu with ginger  to cure about anything

I wouldn't know how to cook without many Japanese staples in my kitchen: shoyou, miso, all umeboshi variants - whole, paste or vinegar, takuan pickles, kuzu, gomashio, kombu, hato mugi, udon, sencha green tea etc.. There are several distributors in the US that import (mostly) organic varieties of these wonderful foods.  Unfortunately, many of them are now in California harbors waiting to be unloaded.  I'm ready to pounce when they are available again . . .

I wish we could share a cup of green tea!


Those macrobiotics vegetables fruits are extraordinary. I am a vegetarian and have been consuming similar green foods for years. Also when i turned into the green, i felt physical and mental changes on me. That's was my right decision aswell for fresh plants and fruits.

I have been born on late 70's i am on my forties now, I have a bit of journey to see and experience land products.
Congrat, you seems to have so much information about various Japanese dishes specialties, even if you don't cook em, there are plenty of restaurants or semi-prepared. Wish you a good order as soon as the opportunity arises.

I generally do not cook neutral relatives on my family deal with this task, they always tells me to bring money home and the food job is done smile other alternative solution, we go outside.

I really like a lot Green Tea, enjoy it at any time hot and cold according to the seasons, it is a good medicine.
Thank you so much for the offer and kindness, I am making a cheers by wishing you only a quiet living, and endless taste of macrobiotics.

#17 Re: Off-topic » The seitan conundrum » 2022-02-13 13:50:33

The indigo blue looks just cool, I like it a lot.

Thanks also for sharing your off-topic story golinux.

As for the Japanese market in Greece but also in Italy, it is an old bargain that has always been made between these countries and Japan (at least it was so like that before COVID), Ports of both states have become a springboard for the import of Japanese goods through Europe.

Then there are plenty of people who bring many products from Japan, but not that often as there is a bit of cost.
I know a Greek friend who lives as a Japanese at his home in Greece and only buys Japanese products Online from Japan.

#18 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-02-13 13:41:46

Ogis1975 wrote:

Thank you so much for sharing these scripts. I really appreciate that. By the way, they work the way they should.

Anytime welcome

#19 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-02-10 16:19:30

andyprough wrote:

20mb, wow! I've seen 45mb on videos of extreme gentoo minimization, but 20mb is getting back to early 1990's kind of computing. That's very impressive for Devuan.

The Linux-libre 4.4 kernel is still being maintained as part of the Super LTS project, I should give it a shot on that 32-bit antiX, see if it loses any additional weight.

The last time from 2019 i used to obtein 20+ MB memory, here is a scrot proof also a bit of details. I used to have kernel 3.16 at that time, no dbus, gtk3, gvfs, 2GB memory slot.
Remember, the less memory the system have installed, the less it consumes. Now i have 4GB mem, hopefully i'll make it to 8GB very soon if the system/hardware will accept it. I mean now, that i use GTK3, DBUS and a few other stuff i can not have it anymore 20MB, so my system cold boot 70MB to XORG and 90MB to startx/cwm.

I always use testing repo mostly, so stable to me is a no use. Ofcourse you're free to test whatever you wish.

Ogis1975 wrote:

Hello. Can you share this handy script? Also, can you share b!tchcat  script? Thank you very much.

Hello mate, Of course.

if (dialog --title "exit-msg" --defaultno --yesno "Leave this CWM session now?" 6 20)
# message box will have the size 25x6 characters
    pkill cwm
    # leave window manager
    echo "Let's stay and play"

dialog must be installed to be used.

 + apt-cache policy dialog
  Installed: 1.3-20211214-1
  Candidate: 1.3-20211214-1
  Version table:
 *** 1.3-20211214-1 500
        500 daedalus/main amd64 Packages
        100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

CWM keybind to call it

# meta + q               = log out window manager
bind-key M-q             "x-terminal-emulator -cr #5865f2 -title Warning -geometry 40x9+780+410 -e .scripts/quitcwm"

The bash B*tchcat

The fetch is originaly made by hokagemadura. I simply adapted for personal uses.
hokagemadura ---


# ▄▄▄█████▓ ██░ ██ ▓█████     ▄████▄   ▄▄▄     ▄▄▄█████▓
# ▓  ██▒ ▓▒▓██░ ██▒▓█   ▀    ▒██▀ ▀█  ▒████▄   ▓  ██▒ ▓▒
# ▒ ▓██░ ▒░▒██▀▀██░▒███      ▒▓█    ▄ ▒██  ▀█▄ ▒ ▓██░ ▒░
# ░ ▓██▓ ░ ░▓█ ░██ ▒▓█  ▄    ▒▓▓▄ ▄██▒░██▄▄▄▄██░ ▓██▓ ░ 
#   ▒██▒ ░ ░▓█▒░██▓░▒████▒   ▒ ▓███▀ ░ ▓█   ▓██▒ ▒██▒ ░ 
#   ▒ ░░    ▒ ░░▒░▒░░ ▒░ ░   ░ ░▒ ▒  ░ ▒▒   ▓▒█░ ▒ ░░   
#     ░     ▒ ░▒░ ░ ░ ░  ░     ░  ▒     ▒   ▒▒ ░   ░    
#   ░       ░  ░░ ░   ░      ░          ░   ▒    ░      
#           ░  ░  ░   ░  ░   ░ ░            ░  ░        
#                            ░                          

# Thanks to:
# hokagemadura ---
# x0, xero ---
# machinebacon ---

# colors and other text features
f=3 b=4
for j in f b; do
  for i in {0..15}; do
    printf -v $j$i %b "\e[${!j}${i}m"
lwrt='tr "[:upper:]" "[:lower:]"'

print-colors() {
    NAMES=('black' 'red' 'green' 'yellow' 'blue' 'magenta' 'cyan' 'white')
    for f in $(seq 0 7); do
        echo -en "\033[m\033[$(($f+30))m ${NAMES[$f]} " # normal colors
    for f in $(seq 0 7); do
        echo -en "\033[m\033[1;$(($f+30))m ${NAMES[$f]} " # bold colors
    echo -e "$rst\n"

# time and date
time=`date "+%l:%M %p"|$lwrt`
date=`date "+%a %d %b %Y"|$lwrt`

# distribution settings
distro=`cat /etc/*-release|grep -i name|$lwrt|cut -c 14-48|sed -n 1p`
bin=$(uname -m)
instd=`ls -alct /|tail -1|$lwrt|awk '{print $6, $7, $8}'`
kernel=`uname -v |$lwrt|cut -c 15-36`
packages=`dpkg --get-selections|wc -l`
dpkg=`which dpkg | cut -c 10-25`

# grab window manager name from .xinitrc
wm=`tail -n 1 "${HOME}/.xinitrc"|$lwrt|cut -c 46-53`

# memory settings
memory=`free -h --si|$lwrt|awk 'NR==2{printf "%s/%s",$3,$2}'; free -m|awk 'NR==2{printf" (%u%%)\n",$3*100/$2 }'`
swap=`free -h --si|$lwrt|awk 'NR==3{printf "%s/%s",$3,$2}'; free -m|awk 'NR==3{printf" (%u%%)\n",$3*100/$2 }'`

# cpu settings
# must have lm-sensors installed, "apt-get install lm_sensors" to have cputemp.
cpuload1=`cat /proc/loadavg | awk {'print $1'}`
cpuload5=`cat /proc/loadavg | awk {'print $2'}`
cpuload15=`cat /proc/loadavg | awk {'print $3'}`
sensors=`sensors | sed -rn 's/.*Core 0:\s+.([0-9]+).*/\1/p'`°

# gtk3 settings
gtktheme=`grep "gtk-theme-name" "$settings.ini"|$lwrt|cut -c 16-35`
gtkicon=`grep "gtk-icon-theme-name" "$settings.ini"|$lwrt|cut -c 21-49`
gtkfont=`grep "gtk-font-name" "$settings.ini"|$lwrt|cut -c 15-40`
gtkcursors=`grep "gtk-cursor-theme-name" "$settings.ini"|$lwrt|cut -c 23-53`

cat << EOF
$f9                         .      'o;       .
$f9                       ;Nd   'dNMMo   'oKMd                        .MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
$f9                      oMMX.oXMMMMMOl0WMMMMd  ..,:cl.              MM  $f1  $stp                                          MM
$f9                     dMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMNKWMMMMMMd             MM   $f1  $stp                                           MM
$f9        .,:ldkO0KXXXXMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMX             MM   $f1  8""""8 8"""" 88   8 8   8 8""""8 8"""8 $stp    MM
$f9  .;oONMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.            MM   $f1  8    8 8     88   8 8   8 8    8 8   8 $stp    MM
$f9  kMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM'            MM   $f1  8e   8 8eeee 88  e8 8e  8 8eeee8 8e  8 $stp    MM
$f9  .MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM;            MM   $f1  88   8 88    "8  8  88  8 88   8 88  8 $stp    MM
$f9   kMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM:            MM   $f1  88   8 88     8  8  88  8 88   8 88  8 $stp    MM
$f9    NMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM0            MM   $f1  88eee8 88eee  8ee8  88ee8 88   8 88  8 $stp    MM
$f9    'WMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMx           MM   $f1                                          $stp   MM
$f9     :MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM:          cK;  $f1                                          $stp  MM
$f9         oMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMk kM;      .Ol'          $f4$date $time
$f9           .MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM  MMMMMMMM' OMMMOl         $f2 distro $f9$distro
$f9            NMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM  MMMMMMMMKxMM0X:  $f2 installed date $f9$instd
$f9            .NMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMW;             $f2 kernel $f9$kernel
$f9             KMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMO.            $f2 packages $f9$packages ($dpkg)
$f9            kMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM0,                    $f2 wm $f9$wm
$f9           c;'.dMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM$t$f1 KKK0kxd                     $f2 memory $f9$memory
$f9               OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMXdlc;'.  $t$f1 :ddxx,                       $f2 swap $f9$swap
$f9               WMM"'   NMMMMMMk'            $t$f1 lxx.
$f9               W       ,MMMM0.              $t$f1 .xxo                      $f2 load $f9$cpuload1,$cpuload5,$cpuload15 (1,5,15m)
$f9                        :MN;                $t$f1  ;xx;                 $f2 cpu temp $f9$sensors
$f9                         '.                 $t$f1   dxx.
$f9                                            $t$f1   'xxx.              $f2 gtk theme $f9$gtktheme (gtk3)
$f9                                            $t$f1    dxxxc.         $f2 icon package $f9$gtkicon
$f9   "UNIX is very simple, it just needs a    $t$f1    .xxxxxo'               $f2 font $f9$gtkfont
$f9      genius to understand its simplicity." $t$f1     ,xxxxxxxl.          $f2 cursor $f9$gtkcursors
$f9                        — Dennis M. Ritchie $t$f1      cxxxxxxxd
$f9                                            $t$f1       :cloodxx'

The bash script gets the data from .xinitrc and gtk3/settings.ini.
Font used cascadia-code


#20 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-02-09 21:18:36

andyprough wrote:

I've been playing around with 32-bit antiX on a 64-bit computer the past couple of days, and it boots into icewm with 74mb of ram. And that's without me lifting a finger to minimize anything. That's about half of what antiX normally runs at. Runs kind of herky jerky, with a lot of brief freezes whenever I try to do anything complex. But fun to toy with.

I'm going to have to try 32-bit Devuan on the same laptop, see what kind of reduced memory tricks I can squeeze out of it.

By the way, your b*tchcat fetch doesn't seem very b*tchy today.

That's true, 32bit consumes many less space than a 64bit architecture, Only the support for 32bit it is greatly reduced by apps and OS'es too. With 32bit you may gain lower memory to 50+MB with COLD BOOT via NETINST ISO.

I have done and booted Devuan with 20MB with 32bit not very long ago. Early kernels like 3.16 was a lighter series, the current ones 5.1+ it is really memory hungry and fat due too many nowdays features. I believe you will achive somewhere to 50 or 70MB startup for 32bit with a bit of optimizations.

See ReduceDebian. It is a bit old page, perhaps not much updated, still useful for customs.

The b!tchcat it is made very fat and should be thined, been thinking to reduce or use alternatives sooner. Just changed the text inside popup , still ugly as fat smile

#21 Re: Off-topic » Show your desktop (rebooted) » 2022-02-09 16:05:02



Adapted a little prompt to quit CWM, the immediate exit by mistake wasn't pleasing.
Thanks to Thorsten Staerk

- Feh [thumbnail mode] used as a backgrounds changing.
Thanks to ceeslans @ bunsenlabs for the script.

- Nautilus/Files as a file manager and mpv player for audio/videos.

- Mega thanks for the albums goes to photografer Joe Motohashi

2nd-edit: Re made the scrots with minor cosmetic changes.

#22 Re: Off-topic » Happy Holidays & Merry Christmas » 2022-01-02 14:59:55

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year Everybody!

#23 Re: Other Issues » [Solved] Problem setting up #Thunar, xfce4 » 2022-01-02 14:49:12

Hello, I don't use thunar, but launch file manager from terminal if it will release any clues.
It could be a permissions concern also.

A quick google reading land me here.

#24 Re: Installation » I am shocked: The most official way to install Devuan is TERROR pure! » 2022-01-02 14:41:17

golinux wrote:

I stand corrected. The Devuan elves have been busier than I imagined!

As always tireless for the services. I on the test repo, have always felt Dev1 readiness in a step with Debian.

Hope @OP find any of those ISO's come to the aid of what he seeks.


#25 Re: Installation » chimaera update firefox broken/ linux-image not updated » 2022-01-01 11:49:25

+1 about navigating that link.
Warning: Potential Security Risk Ahead

Regarding Firefox from @op thread.

I run Firefox Nightly on a stack CWM for months, CWM as a Window Manager doesn't have toolbar like Openbox, Fluxbox rather it is like a DWM or HLWM, but have mouse click feature.

Used to drag with left-click the firefox toolbar to move root window everywhere the mouse directed, but i can't do it anymore since a month. Also i have lost the top buttons on toolbar, i mean close, maximize, minimize.
Because "Title bar" from Customize that enabled it isn't available anymore from bottom left of the custom.

This is from Nightly 97.0a1 (2021-12-31) nightly/daily updated - Devuan Testing

It used to be like this
This is from Firefox 95.0.2 - Windows

While the F11 (Firefox Full screen) buttons are shown, but seems messed up without icons and a bit higher extended over mouse point.

I never reported this issues to reddit

thinking that 1) they have either removed them as a function, 2) or will fix them later since the browser is experimental.

When i fire nightly from terminal doesn't show any log, i tried with new clean profile .mozilla without success.

So, i have a bit similar symptoms as @op or perhaps mine is different concern.

As CWM doesn't have toolbar i close dialogs with ESC or WM keybind if toolbar buttons aren't present, but losing the clickable and buttons to Firefox for me is a miss. Perhaps i may return them with a userChrome modification, but never bothered, i'm became a little lazy even to report neutral

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