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#1 2017-10-01 04:52:39

JoshuaFlynn
Member
Registered: 2017-09-09
Posts: 48

Adventures of the systemd clownface

Had been doing a holdover on Lubuntu 14.04 prior to Devuan's developments, but I opted to boot up Lubuntu 16.04 in a VM to see how bad it was in pre-emptive research for the Borg Pigeon project. So I booted it up in Live in VM to see what would happen.

Turns out, not only is systemd really, really bad at booting up... it also makes your graphics go wonky and gives you this giant, creepy pasta distorted clown face, also notice the screen dimensions (apparently systemd thinks I have the 'tapestry' width setting):

Clownface.png

Reacting like anyone would, I tried to click the 'clownface' only to find my cursor is also distorted and giant:

Giant_Cursor.png


How on earth did systemd mess up a fully working OS distribution like this? Everything that could possibly be wrong is. I bet if there was audio it'd be a screaming RrRrRrRr noise as the systemd clownface attempts to curse you with it's giant, nethack-esque colour scheme.

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#2 2017-10-20 18:21:13

fog
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 22

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

this is your vm setup/vid card fault. Nothing to do with systemd:
lubuntu_in_VM.png

I heard that last solar eclipse was caused by excessive use of systemd....

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#3 2017-10-23 05:30:32

Connectorivity
Member
Registered: 2017-10-05
Posts: 4

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

fog wrote:

this is your vm setup/vid card fault. Nothing to do with systemd:
https://thumb.ibb.co/fYmKqm/lubuntu_in_VM.png

I heard that last solar eclipse was caused by excessive use of systemd....


I do believe that is 17.04. Joshua was using 14.04. 17.04 works perfectly fine in a VM, hence Joshua's point that the addition of systemd makes it act differently in a VM. The eclipse was quite great... always remember to use glasses!

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#4 2017-10-23 10:20:27

cynwulf
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 99

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

And of course the only difference between the releases was systemd...?  Not ~ three years of development, in the kernel and video driver stack to name just a few...?

Setting aside what I might think of systemd, this kind of thread only fuels the argument that many systemd opponents are just ill-informed fanboi types.  I'm not sure what Linux KMS/DRM video driver stack and X.org server have got to do with systemd.  This looks more like a driver bug (or a configuration error)?

Despite the claims, *buntu family have always used "bleeding edge" technology from Debian testing/unstable/upstream rather than basing off the stable release.  It's not unusual for their to be a regression or several in a particular release's kernel.

As we don't know what kind of virtualisation was used in this case, nor how it was set up, it's hard to say what cause might be.

And that's before we even get onto the subject of "testing in VMs"...

Last edited by cynwulf (2017-10-23 10:27:35)

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#5 2017-10-23 13:08:12

fog
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 22

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

Connectorivity wrote:
fog wrote:

this is your vm setup/vid card fault. Nothing to do with systemd:
https://thumb.ibb.co/fYmKqm/lubuntu_in_VM.png

I heard that last solar eclipse was caused by excessive use of systemd....


I do believe that is 17.04. Joshua was using 14.04. 17.04 works perfectly fine in a VM, hence Joshua's point that the addition of systemd makes it act differently in a VM. The eclipse was quite great... always remember to use glasses!

This is just wild speculation, broken vid card has nothing to do with systemd. I don't know what VM he is using, but take look at hardware configuration of VM host.
When I have time I can try to load 14.04. ....and in the case of problems ask at vbox forums?

here you go 14.04 running just fine as VM guest..
lubuntu_14_04_in_VM.png

now for clarification: latest SystemRescueCd (Gentoo/OpenRC based) vid is broken too (previous versions worked), Whonix (Debian/systemd) generates cpu errors (VM version).
as you can see none of this has anything to do with systemd.
I think that zealotry is bad for anything. Also you clearly do not bother to solve problems just blame on something. That is just laziness.

Last edited by fog (2017-10-23 15:33:37)

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#6 2017-10-23 16:15:21

JoshuaFlynn
Member
Registered: 2017-09-09
Posts: 48

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

fog wrote:

this is your vm setup/vid card fault.

Despite the fact that I've hosted 10 different Linux OSes in VM on this machine perfectly fine.

(All the working ones have one thing in common: they either minimise or don't have systemd on them on default install.)

Lubuntu is also of course L, for 'Lightweight', which means graphics shouldn't be an issue, and any graphics failure should drop down into text based, not this weird-ass clown face.

Connectorivity wrote:

I do believe that is 17.04. Joshua was using 14.04.

I was using 16.04, but you're still correct, his version doesn't align.

cynwulf wrote:

Setting aside what I might think of systemd, this kind of thread only fuels the argument that many systemd opponents are just ill-informed fanboi types.

It's a bit hard to make rational arguments against systemd if you get banned for it (after administrators turn pseudo-trolls to bait adversarial responses).

Curiously, this shallow thread prompted nothing, but a thread of substance and research prompts a ban? Go figure.

cynwulf wrote:

I'm not sure what Linux KMS/DRM video driver stack and X.org server have got to do with systemd.

Even putting aside the blatant blame-shifting game (what bug hunting or diagnosis did you use to reach the conclusion on what's occurring on my machine?), it's a valid question - but directed at the wrong person, and should be directed at the systemd developers themselves; one wonders why desktop environments (such as say, LXDE, KDE and XFCE) are being integrated into systemd.

Along with, of course, everything else.

And don't bother with the 'init'/'umbrella project' switcheroo, someone already tried it and from what I saw they didn't come back (unless it was under a sock account).

Last edited by JoshuaFlynn (2017-10-23 16:16:08)

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#7 2017-10-23 16:27:13

cynwulf
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 99

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

Well before you start piling on with any further chastisement...  the OP was apparently issued with a 1 week ban on 08/10/17.

http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1637&p=2

If those were the terms, then this should have expired, but as yet they haven't returned.

Sadly "anti" type movements - and in this case - projects relating to exclusion/avoidance of a particular piece of software are often prone to hijacking by agenda driven types.  Or they can simply attract misinformed zealots.  We had a few at the debianuserforums.org a few years back.  When challenged on logic or facts their arguments usually fall away and their technical ability is almost always found to be lacking.  It usually amounts to "I read it somewhere"  (usually a blog or forum) combined with lots of FUD.

While systemd is highly contentious software - non fact based attacks on systemd and it's developers aren't helpful to anyone.

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#8 2017-10-23 17:41:22

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 650

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

cynwulf wrote:

Well before you start piling on with any further chastisement...  the OP was apparently issued with a 1 week ban on 08/10/17.

http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1637&p=2

If those were the terms, then this should have expired, but as yet they haven't returned.

It was removed exactly one week later.  But if the bad mouthing continues will be reinstated.

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#9 2017-10-23 18:18:26

blinkdog
Member
Registered: 2016-11-30
Posts: 3

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

JoshuaFlynn wrote:

It's a bit hard to make rational arguments against systemd if you get banned for it (after administrators turn pseudo-trolls to bait adversarial responses).

Curiously, this shallow thread prompted nothing, but a thread of substance and research prompts a ban? Go figure.

I think what the administrators are trying to tell you: the systemd war is over.

Both sides won.

The pro-systemd camp in Debian made systemd the default init system for Debian; they are happy.

The anti-systemd camp in Debian declared exodus and released Devuan Jessie 1.0.0 LTS free of systemd; we are happy.

Creating anti/pro threads at this point just invites arguments, flaming, trolling, moderation, banning, etc.

They won.

We also won.

Clean those rational arguments, stow them away in the armory, then come help us build Devuan! smile

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#10 2017-10-23 18:47:38

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 650

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

blinkdog wrote:

Clean those rational arguments, stow them away in the armory, then come help us build Devuan! smile

Amen to that.

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#11 2017-10-23 18:55:40

fog
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 22

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

JoshuaFlynn wrote:
fog wrote:

this is your vm setup/vid card fault.

Despite the fact that I've hosted 10 different Linux OSes in VM on this machine perfectly fine.

(All the working ones have one thing in common: they either minimise or don't have systemd on them on default install.)

Lubuntu is also of course L, for 'Lightweight', which means graphics shouldn't be an issue, and any graphics failure should drop down into text based, not this weird-ass clown face.

Connectorivity wrote:

I do believe that is 17.04. Joshua was using 14.04.

I was using 16.04, but you're still correct, his version doesn't align.

cynwulf wrote:

Setting aside what I might think of systemd, this kind of thread only fuels the argument that many systemd opponents are just ill-informed fanboi types.

It's a bit hard to make rational arguments against systemd if you get banned for it (after administrators turn pseudo-trolls to bait adversarial responses).

Curiously, this shallow thread prompted nothing, but a thread of substance and research prompts a ban? Go figure.

cynwulf wrote:

I'm not sure what Linux KMS/DRM video driver stack and X.org server have got to do with systemd.

Even putting aside the blatant blame-shifting game (what bug hunting or diagnosis did you use to reach the conclusion on what's occurring on my machine?), it's a valid question - but directed at the wrong person, and should be directed at the systemd developers themselves; one wonders why desktop environments (such as say, LXDE, KDE and XFCE) are being integrated into systemd.

Along with, of course, everything else.

And don't bother with the 'init'/'umbrella project' switcheroo, someone already tried it and from what I saw they didn't come back (unless it was under a sock account).

ok.
I don't really care what version of lubuntu do you want to run. All are the same (here 16.04 or whatever you want to "challenge");
lubuntu_16_06_in_VM.png

think a bit about the logic: if 17.07 runs fine (with systemd) and 14.04 runs fine (also with systemd). so just in the case, if something would go wrong, then it would be lubuntu devs fault. Not systemd. If you would have a little of good will to understand OS you are running, you would know what specific piece of software can or can't do.

The weakness of your arguments lays in the fact that anyone who is pro systemd will laugh at your anti systemd misinformed propaganda. Learn about init learn about your "enemies" by first hand experience. Then this might be serious discussion.

As of now this is nothing more than zealotry. Your arguments in this particular form are not rational. You seem like obnoxious child who just heard something but it is not even able to properly laid valid arguments.

I am not defending systemd but I believe that you are not doing any service to "anti-systemd" point of view

Last edited by fog (2017-10-23 19:58:27)

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#12 2017-10-23 20:14:02

greenjeans
Member
Registered: 2017-04-07
Posts: 355
Website

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

golinux wrote:
blinkdog wrote:

Clean those rational arguments, stow them away in the armory, then come help us build Devuan! smile

Amen to that.

Thirding that.


https://sourceforge.net/projects/vuu-do/
Vuu-do GNU/Linux, minimal 64 and 32 bit Devuan-based openbox and mate systems to build on, maximal versions if you prefer your linux fully-loaded.

Please donate to support Devuan and init freedom! https://devuan.org/os/donate

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#13 2017-10-23 21:23:16

cynwulf
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 99

Re: Adventures of the systemd clownface

JoshuaFlynn wrote:

Despite the fact that I've hosted 10 different Linux OSes in VM on this machine perfectly fine.

(All the working ones have one thing in common: they either minimise or don't have systemd on them on default install.)

I hear this argument often.  A certain type of user goes to a forum, posts a problem and claims that "it worked perfectly on Linux distro xyz".  It really doesn't prove anything.  You can't isolate the fault to one particular component unless you have actually found the solution to the problem with that particular Linux distributrion - just removing it and installing a completely different distribution with a different kernel release doesn't really prove anything.  The many more things they don't have in common could be the source of your problems.

JoshuaFlynn wrote:

Lubuntu is also of course L, for 'Lightweight', which means graphics shouldn't be an issue, and any graphics failure should drop down into text based, not this weird-ass clown face.

This does show that you have little understanding of the Linux kms/drm driver stack and X.org.  The "lightweight" tag applies to the window manager or desktop environment in the case of these Ubuntu respins (I believe the L is for LXDE), the base system is usually the same - as I recall it was possible to install/remove the other full blown desktops by installing/removing the meta packages - may no longer be the case for all I know.  None of this should have any bearing on the X.org implementation - that should be the same.  The X server dropping to a tty also has no bearing on this.  If the display is configured or detected incorrectly (again nothing to do with systemd), then the result can be what you posted.  I would have to guess, but perhaps your "hardware" (virtualised in your case) wasn't supported and X.org tried to initialise a frame buffer device.  (In glorious 8 bit colour).  If you'd examined the log files for X.org you might have found out why or at least found something to point you in the right direction.  As you've not stated what VM you're using nor the emulated architecture or how it's configured (e.g. if vt-x or amd-v are enabled), there's no way of knowing.

JoshuaFlynn wrote:

Even putting aside the blatant blame-shifting game (what bug hunting or diagnosis did you use to reach the conclusion on what's occurring on my machine?), it's a valid question - but directed at the wrong person, and should be directed at the systemd developers themselves; one wonders why desktop environments (such as say, LXDE, KDE and XFCE) are being integrated into systemd.

The X server renders graphics - your low res and low colour depth, distproportioned image can only originate from the X server (which I can assure you is in no way "integrated" into systemd).  It's an easy conclusion to come to.  But if you can provide factual evidence that systemd is in fact responsible I'll accept it's my error.

You could also ask the Virtualbox, LXDE developers or maybe the X.org or drm/kms developers on their mailing lists.  The answer will probably be that they haven't integrated their projects with systemd.

JoshuaFlynn wrote:

And don't bother with the 'init'/'umbrella project' switcheroo, someone already tried it and from what I saw they didn't come back (unless it was under a sock account).

What?

Last edited by cynwulf (2017-10-23 21:31:16)

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