Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

linuxnews · 2023-08-02 11:20:13

I would say, that depends on what is fed to it. I use Repology almost every day for information and usualy find it very reliable. I feed the repos of our distribution to it as well and it has not failed me yet. Obviously until now.

golinux · 2023-08-02 16:07:18

linuxnews wrote:

LinuxNews here. The 'nonsense' did not come from me. Please complain at https://repology.org/project/systemd/versions. Thank you.

Oh . . . but it did! News "sources" have an obligation to verify information before blabbing about it. Passing the buck is not an excuse for not doing your homework. Sadly, such journalistic practices are common these days. Truth is the casualty . . .

jue-gen · 2023-08-02 16:49:08

linuxnews wrote:

... The 'nonsense' did not come from me ...

If you don't give a source, don't say where you got it, it looks like it came from you ....

zapper · 2023-08-03 02:51:26

jue-gen wrote:

linuxnews wrote:
... The 'nonsense' did not come from me ...
If you don't give a source, don't say where you got it, it looks like it came from you ....

Anytime someone says "you didn't hear it from me"

I instantly think, okay I am going to say I heard it from you.

soren · 2023-08-03 12:06:06

linuxnews wrote:

I would say, that depends on what is fed to it. I use Repology almost every day for information and usualy find it very reliable. I feed the repos of our distribution to it as well and it has not failed me yet. Obviously until now.

How is repology fed for your distribution if you dont me me asking? Repology looks like quite a huge undertaking.

zapper · 2023-08-17 01:01:52

golinux wrote:

linuxnews wrote:
LinuxNews here. The 'nonsense' did not come from me. Please complain at https://repology.org/project/systemd/versions. Thank you.
Oh . . . but it did! News "sources" have an obligation to verify information before blabbing about it. Passing the buck is not an excuse for not doing your homework. Sadly, such journalistic practices are common these days. Truth is the casualty . . .

Truth has always been a casualty in some form or another in the history of the world, don't you know this?

However, we can thank ronald reagan for a massive increase in this.

Just sayin...

News should never be capitalistic that is the bottom line.

Profit off of the news = an opening for societal problems to increase exponentially

stargate-sg1-cheyenne-mtn · 2023-11-27 13:35:46

golinux wrote:

golinux high-fives dice

ditto on the high-fives!
kudos for the SG1 reference.

jirib · 2024-12-16 21:16:24

OK but... can I use dpkg hook or APT::Ignore-Files-Silently not to have such systemd unit files present on my system?

SinOjOs · 2025-01-21 20:13:03

Same o'l argument, wtf, systemd on a non systemd system. Really sucks, that there is no NON systemd Linux any longer. If you want a non systemd you have to follow the instructions at LFS. It is a real shame. Yet, it is governments wanting access & control. Not one industry entity. https://www.linuxfromscratch.org

golinux · 2025-01-21 20:34:59

What is in a name? "Systemditis" is an imaginary affliction. If the files do nothing what does it matter except take up a few bits or is it bytes? Devuan does not have the human resources to remove all of those useless barnacles though someone did manage to do it early on for Jessie.

zapper · 2025-01-21 21:53:48

@sinOjOs not just the government but corporations in general.

This is the same thought process of why x86 needs to be abandoned by insert distro here ________

I don't think we have gotten to a point where 32 bit is obsolete to where it can't be supported on any distro.

FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD support lots of old hardware some that is older than 32 bit x86.

So there's that.

While this isn't directly related, i feel like it has similar reasoning.

planned obsolescence is corporations mantra. You can be pretty sure that systemd was created for a purpose similar to planned obsolescence.

Nothing sane anyhow.

blackhole · 2025-01-22 09:07:15

This seems offtopic, but some seem to think they are entitled to an i386 OS, maintained and developed for free. Unfortunately that's not how it works. Big corporations such as MS kept x86_32 alive because it was in their business interests to do so. Unlike the OpenBSD project, MS had the resources and developers to do this. This was out of necessity - i.e. due to the very large number of devices still out there at the time, which could potentially have become Linux machines if MS had moved fully to 64 bit (as Intel famously attempted with IA64).

Due to the increased usage of OpenBSD/amd64, as well as the age and practicality of most i386 hardware, only easy and critical security fixes are backported to i386. The project has more important things to focus on.

https://www.openbsd.org/i386.html

The i386 platform is a Tier 2 platform in FreeBSD 13.0 and later.

https://www.freebsd.org/platforms/i386/
(And by 15.0-release i386 will be unsupported)

Support for the platform is on the decline due to the declining numbers of machines still in use. CPUs of the current platform, amd64, have been in production for over 20 years.

As to systemd files in Devuan, the project's standpoint is correct: Packages will come with harmless bits and pieces, such as unit files, which are not worth the trouble removing. If someone regards those files as being equivalent to systemd being installed, then you probably can't help them, as they are likely a) misinformed, b) ideologically and emotionally driven and c) don't have the technical aptitude to learn and correct their misapprehension. If you don't like what's on offer, you aquire the skills and build your own. If you lack the skills to do this, then you either pay someone who can or you just use what's on offer.

Last edited by blackhole (2025-01-22 09:09:48)

rolfie · 2025-01-22 09:57:09

@blackhole: well done, nicely summarized.

greenjeans · 2025-01-22 16:45:34

Devuan does not have the human resources to remove all of those useless barnacles though someone did manage to do it early on for Jessie.

Might be an interesting project for a rainy day. I already have quite a few "dummy" folders and files on my system from other stuff. I think best way to go about it, might be to start with a very minimal system, install it in conventional fashion to a USB stick (i.e. NOT a "liveUSB"), boot the stick, then start the "dummying" process to see what you can get away with before it breaks. A lot of stuff can probably just be outright deleted, and some programs just want to see that a folder or file exists with a certain name or verify that the package is installed according to apt.

I might just do it myself, if I do i'll report back.

blackhole · 2025-01-22 17:42:18

As far as utterly superficial and pointless projects go I wouldn't say it's the worst idea...

There is little to be gained from such work except the adoration of those who regard every instance of the word "systemd" to be an infection.

Documentation for any particular software project will likely contain systemd references. The project will also most likely provide unit files for systemd. These will take up a tiny amount of space (far less than the man pages many users don't read). Devuan repacking every .deb file to remove these, is a waste of time and resources - even if Devuan had these available.

Removal of every unused file associated with systemd, when system is not in use, is merely token appeasement of clueless zealots and the Devuan project should resist this. Those types of users are detrimental and no loss if they decide to move along.

Last edited by blackhole (2025-01-22 17:45:34)

golinux · 2025-01-22 17:55:35

Thank you, blackhole . . .

greenjeans · 2025-01-22 18:03:43

It's not that i'm a zealot over systemd, what I am is an experimenter who set out a long time ago to do something about all the cruft that comes with most linux distributions, and just see what it really needed to run, and eliminate things that did not directly benefit the end-user (me). I care absolutely nothing about adoration or kudos or whatever, I enjoy the work and get a good amount of joy every single time I root out some hidden crap that doesn't belong.

It's a fact that smaller systems run faster and with less resource usage. In this day and age of ginormous amounts of storage space, ram and cpu power most people don't seem to care about the bloat though, and that's fine for them. But as for me, I have better uses for storage space.

Each little improvement may not seem like much, but added together over the years of learning what I could and could not get away with, I am able to make my own systems literally half the size or less.

It's just optimization, it's not a crusade. I'm not suggesting Devuan do this.

Dutch_Master · 2025-01-22 23:14:14

Once you figured out which files are safe to delete, it's a small step automating this in a script. Which can then be packaged as a .deb for anyone to install as they see fit.

Just a thought

golinux · 2025-01-22 23:37:43

Why is this conversation even happening when currently no one is building the installer isos! Seems like ya'll have lost sight of priorities . . .

greenjeans · 2025-01-23 00:12:06

Once you figured out which files are safe to delete, it's a small step automating this in a script. Which can then be packaged as a .deb for anyone to install as they see fit.
Just a thought wink

Or even just providing the script. I like the way you think.

greenjeans · 2025-01-23 00:15:24

Why is this conversation even happening when currently no one is building the installer isos! Seems like ya'll have lost sight of priorities . . .

I don't think there's anything I can personally do to help you find someone qualified and willing to assume that duty, if there was be assured I would do everything I could to help.

In the meantime it surely doesn't hurt to have a discourse about Devuan and it's components IMO.

golinux · 2025-01-23 00:20:58

Sadly, hot air may be a comfort in the dreary cold of winter but it will not lift a balloon full of holes . . . If words do not lead to useful action what use are they?

greenjeans · 2025-01-23 00:31:32

Okay, hot air, wow.

So exactly how can we help you find someone to build installer iso's? I'm happy to help if I can...

Seems a bit superfluous, it's like playing whack-a-mole at least until freeze since updates are pushed most every day, I have a working iso of it but it's full of bugs, and every time I fix one, 5 more pop up as soon as I update.

And I don't know who would have the patience to test installer iso's regularly with that gawdawful debian installer, especially when there are live-installers like Refracta that do in 10 minutes what the debian installer takes 2 hours to do...

golinux · 2025-01-23 00:45:05

@Ralph.Ronnquist . . . Didn't you move away from the Debian installer a while ago? Or perhaps I am misremembering.

greenjeans · 2025-01-23 00:58:52

@Ralph.Ronnquist . . . Didn't you move away from the Debian installer a while ago? Or perhaps I am misremembering.

For sure need to know this. You want a simple live-CD/DVD/USB build of current excalibur and i'll build you one every week until freeze and make it available online. For that kind of build/testing it should include a basic GUI interface, xfce will do although it's not optimum.

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#51 2023-08-02 11:20:13

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#52 2023-08-02 16:07:18

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#53 2023-08-02 16:49:08

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#54 2023-08-03 02:51:26

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#55 2023-08-03 12:06:06

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#56 2023-08-17 01:01:52

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#57 2023-11-27 13:35:46

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#58 2024-12-16 21:16:24

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#59 2025-01-21 20:13:03

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#60 2025-01-21 20:34:59

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#61 2025-01-21 21:53:48

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#62 2025-01-22 09:07:15

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#63 2025-01-22 09:57:09

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#64 2025-01-22 16:45:34

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#65 2025-01-22 17:42:18

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#66 2025-01-22 17:55:35

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#67 2025-01-22 18:03:43

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#68 2025-01-22 23:14:14

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#69 2025-01-22 23:37:43

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#70 2025-01-23 00:12:06

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#71 2025-01-23 00:15:24

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#72 2025-01-23 00:20:58

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#73 2025-01-23 00:31:32

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#74 2025-01-23 00:45:05

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

#75 2025-01-23 00:58:52

Re: Why are systemd files present in Devuan?

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