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#1 2024-05-16 18:08:09

oui
Member
Registered: 2017-09-02
Posts: 305  

Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

Because of the really aggressiv reaction especially of fsmithred, the producent of the wonderfull software refractasnapshot and other,  I did go away but continue to use fidel refractasnapshot ...

... if possible!

but it seems that Devuan would not be any more the exact copy of Debian, and that that causes really terrible consequences for the users (searching days and days for solutions ABSOLUTELY NOT NEEDING if Devuan would be actual at the level of Debian ah ah ah!).

I already did report in that community that lots of refractasnapshot did not success espec. with ubuntu. Look please yourself for the probably wrong reaction from the moderator at this time (this man will only provocate!!! Not him! I!!!).

Actually, I continue to build my KDE installations WITHOUT SOME LIBREOFFICE, FIREFOX, THUNDERBIRD, and co. but with the REAL kde APPLICATIONS continuing the developments of the German University having created free and for free KDE and konqueror etc. But I do that now in the real

DEBIAN

as Devuan seems to be more and more some cartel against Debian.

But I continue to use the refracta-tools. They are free, ok, or not?

In the new Debian were some details make better (why, if not, new versions!!!).

apt claims: «That is not ZSTD!!!».

Hm! zstd? Does Devuan and Refracta ignore zstd?

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!

Zstd is a rediculous amoung of bites! And the moderator here did only answer to my problems that they probably don't exists!

The reallity is that refracta tools need to meet the real compressions tools of Debian, Ubuntu etc. If not, it does not work properly!

(A last time: excuse please my bad English! I would transmit my infos in other form in my mother tongue.,,,)

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#2 2024-05-16 18:49:43

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 412  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

I've always found fsmithred to be polite & civil in his replies, & his utilities to work admirably.....

Last edited by Camtaf (2024-05-16 18:50:00)

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#3 2024-05-16 19:14:32

Altoid
Member
Registered: 2017-05-07
Posts: 1,475  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

Hello:

Camtaf wrote:

... always found fsmithred to be polite & civil ...

Indeed ...

Not only that, he has devoted many hundred of hours to Devuan.
And continues to do so.

@oui
If you have problems with Devuan, you may want to consider using another distribution more suited to your specific needs.
There are a great many to choose from, with and without systemd.

A.

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#4 2024-05-16 19:26:19

oui
Member
Registered: 2017-09-02
Posts: 305  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

Did you not understand my post? I use the REAL Debian now! Devuan is a wrong dream: not actual. Problems and problems made themself! Today I only want to warn: This Devuan is not Debian without systemD any more: Désormais (now) Devuan est (is) à la traîne  (laggin behind says Google) and does not respect the new usages any more from all other Debian-world distributions...
As such, it is a new chimere!

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#5 2024-05-16 20:09:42

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,446  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

If google says that devuan is lagging behind debian, then google is confused. Almost all of the packages in devuan are taken directly from debian's repos when you install something.

If you think I was too aggressive when I told you and someone else to stop talking about each other, then I guess you misunderstood. We are here to talk about devuan, not to have personal arguments with other users. Or maybe the part you misunderstood was that I don't want to have a discussion about how to have a discussion. I don't require or want any feedback regarding this particular issue. Just stay on-topic.

@others - Thanks for the support.

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#6 2024-05-19 07:20:51

aitor
Member
From: basque country
Registered: 2016-12-03
Posts: 227  
Website

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

Camptaf wrote:

I've always found fsmithred to be polite & civil

I have had the great satisfaction of meeting fsmithred, and I testify to this.


If you work systematically, things will come by itself (Lev D. Landau)

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#7 2024-05-19 07:52:15

Dutch_Master
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 279  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

Oh boy, you really don't know how to make friends, don't you :-\ Nor do you understand when to stop harassing people, private or public.

If you're happy with Debian, please leave this community alone. It seems you fail to grasp that these harassment's say more about you then we want to know and nothing at all about the Devuan project at large. In fact, I'm surprised your account hasn't been terminated yet, but that might be a matter of time if you persist in your ways >:{

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#8 2024-05-23 08:45:15

avbox
Member
Registered: 2019-09-03
Posts: 104  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

As the maintainer of Devuan-based AV multimedia distribution, I would also like to add "my" two cents. The original idea was to use SystemD to replace the old init scripts during startup. At the beginning it was said that the other init systems would of course be supported alongside SystemD.

Well, what happened? SystemD established itself as the standard tool in almost all x86 distributions of Linux. SystemD offers many tools. Whether they are all useful and necessary is open to debate. However, many distributions are based on it. But I don't think anyone here will want to deny that Debian can no longer run without SystemD. Frankly spoken, this was not mentioned at the beginning and therefore there is probably Devuan.

The consequence, however, is that these tools are being used more and more in DEB packages. Mullvad should be mentioned here as an example. Due to the fact that systemctl is used for the installation, the installation fails:

systemctl enable "/usr/lib/systemd/system/mullvad-daemon.service"
systemctl start mullvad-daemon.service || echo "Failed to start mullvad-daemon.service"
systemctl enable "/usr/lib/systemd/system/mullvad-early-boot-blocking.service"

The question can now be raised as to why there is no systemctl tool under Devun (or is there)? Now the installation of Mullvad only fails at the very end, the software is installed. However, when I create a script for OpenRC or InitV, the service mullvad still refuses to work, because mullvad-daemon queries the "operating system" and finds that Devuan is not present:

[ERROR] Error: Failed to reset firewall policy
Caused by: Error while processing an incoming netlink message
Caused by: Operation not supported (os error 95)

Mullvad is just one example. Such cases have become more frequent in recent years, especially in recent months. Now, the source code of Mullvad is open source, but I would have to "fork" it to get it to work. In my case, I preferred to write a script directly that performs the wireguard setup. This script is system-independent and has approx. 80 lines and approx. 2.5 KB in size. In contrast, the Mullvad package requires approx. 144 MB on the hard disk (currently 485657 lines of code).

If I take the liberty of pointing out such "bloated" code monsters from time to time (e.g. at linuxnews.de), well, I don't really feel taken seriously. Ultimately, however, everyone has to know for themselves what suits them and what doesn't. Personally, I am very grateful to Devuan that there is an alternative. Perhaps there will come a time when Devuan becomes independent because the "role model" Debian contains so much SystemD that it can no longer serve as a template. I don't want that to happen, but I think it could be the case at some point (in a few years).

In my life, I have learned that if you don't "swim" with the mainstream, you shouldn't expect too much understanding. It is probably simply part of the "majority" that these alternatives are not really considered important. However, everyone benefits from diversity. This applies not only to the Devuan → Debian relationship, but also to those who use Windows or Mac. But when I think that Edge, for example, wants to prevent the creation of screen copies... Ok, then I'm happy to be in the minority...

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#9 2024-05-23 12:35:42

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 578  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

...Mullvad should be mentioned here as an example..

Just recently I came across... a colleague asked a question on one of the forums: “Do you completely trust your VPN provider? Don’t delude yourself with illusions...”

But the essence of the topic is different - a person uses a tool, appropriated its name and throws mud at the author, the Devuan team and the community at the same time.

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#10 2024-05-23 14:36:32

avbox
Member
Registered: 2019-09-03
Posts: 104  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

I just wanted to add the following points:

1) Mullvad is an example that integration of third party software under Devuan becomes more difficult.

2) You should never too much trust to any vpn, this is clear. My intention to use such services is:

https://archivista.ch/cms/en/news/wireg … th-2023-v/

3) I had the pleasure to get in touch with oui. He commented my thread about avmultimedia. I personally had not the impression that he was interested in AVMultimedia, the discussion you found here:

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=49104#p49104

4) My impression was/is, a) such a bad german does not anyone use that speaks German as primary language and b) most of the post is nonsense

5) I made a note with 'report' and got an answer from the administrator that probably this specific post does not make any sense but so far oui was ok.

6) It is difficult to find out if someone is just disappointed or it is more a troll. In this sense, I think a know what oui intention is but I'm not 100% sure about it.

7) I really like Devuan and use it currently with great pleasure for my AVMultimedia distro, but as I tried to explain in my initial post. As soon as you go to third party software it can become difficult to get it working. Just today I wanted to run a docker image. After one hour I gave it up. May be this is a problem about docker because the change their software to much, but again, docker does not run because it says there is no known os available.

8) After all I think (as I said in my initial post), today it probably is more difficult to be "Debian" compliant. SystemD is widely used and probing an os to decline installation if it is not 100% the right version of ubuntu/debian/fedora seems to be common sense for a lot of developers.

So the result can be that people have troubles running devuan as a daily user distribution. I don't have any solution but I think some reflection about it would not be a bad thing.

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#11 2024-05-23 19:30:23

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 114  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

If you don't like a distro, just don't use it. Find the one that works best for your use cases, but don't distrohop. Devuan itself is just a tool for those who want Systemd removed from an Aptitude-based distro, and it does a good job at making all the services compatible with traditional inits. Everything else falls on the user to customize it the way that they like it.

In my case, I always base my installs on Refracta, which is a well-done Devuan respin by the same guy you're butthurt over. No one distro out of the box is for everyone. That's just the reality of FLOSS. You are more than welcome to stick to Debian or another distro... In fact, you could go above and beyond by doing us all a favor: go back to Windows 10/11/whatever and stay there. Their support team at least will get a paycheck for babysitting you.

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#12 2024-05-24 05:00:45

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 874  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

@brocashelm that is not doing FOSS a favor in anyway shape or form to be:

A: elitst (which is why I detest the archlinux community for their abuse just asking a question in their irc channel and because it wasnt their distro getting heckled and scoffed at)

B: the demon that is windows needs to die not live forever! Besides it hurts the climate using that garbage os due to data centers collecting constantly among other things.

Point being, your suggestion of going back to windows is not above and beyond, its beneath and towards an endless abyss.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#13 2024-05-24 07:20:03

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 356  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

that is not doing FOSS a favor in anyway shape or form

Dunno about FOSS in general, but it'd definitely improve the SNR on this board, and good riddance.

Not at all surprised if fsmithred was a bit short with this one, I would be even shorter... Likely "go away troll" followed by a resounding *plonk*.

And no, this is not just a language barrier. English not being your first language might explain the aggressive and hyperbolic word choice to some extent, but the pattern of trash-talk, shouting and multiple exclamation marks is 100% intentional flamebait.


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#14 2024-05-24 07:31:27

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 114  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

Claiming "elitism" is the argument used for wishing to infiltrate and subvert software. Being a "gatekeeper" is all that one has to ensure that a project never gets watered down with normies or other bad actors -- those who have nothing better to do than cry about "racism", "transphobia", or "bigotry" in an ill attempt to get rid of talented programmers, and a "CoC" will be written to prove "morality".

The Linux Foundation is pimped by corporations (including Microsoft and Google), so they have a huge influence on Linux. Systemd's creator even works for Microsoft now. As well, Debian proper is living on borrowed time. Instead of focusing on giving the users what they want (a system that "just works"), they chose to suck up to politics, which already drove away a few maintainers worth their salt. One of them is now happily a part of the Arch staff, where he ironically feels more accepted in.

Ultimately, Linus Torvalds sold out to the hurt feelings crowd, likely as blackmail from the women in his family. Meanwhile, Theo de Raadt of OpenBSD refuses to be a pushover, and anyone whining about politics on their mailing list gets the boot.

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#15 2024-05-24 07:50:36

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 356  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

Really? We need to drag brain-rot politics in here too?

anyone whining about politics on their mailing list gets the boot.

Careful, whining about whining about politics is still whining about politics.

OTOH, maybe if we derail this thread hard enough it will spontaneously combust. Once the stinky smoke clears, I expect that'll be a relief for everyone involved. tongue

For my part, proud gate-goblin since 1999. Somebody gotta keep the riff-raff at bay, or we'll be up to our necks in idiots and activists 'afore the week is out.


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#16 2024-05-24 08:55:18

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 578  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

In my case, I always base my installs on Refracta, which is a well-done Devuan respin by the same guy you're butthurt over.

God forbid! smile
I had the “pleasure” to try this set of programs for the sake of experience.
Shutting down the computer only through the root terminal, and after su, the regular user’s programs stopped running altogether.
Such crafts are only for punishment. smile

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#17 2024-05-27 20:09:25

wdq
Member
From: United Kingdom
Registered: 2018-03-15
Posts: 76  
Website

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

WOW , i think i am getting old , tbh some users should say thank you and keep some of their ideas .

@fsmithred you have all my respect , i know the amount of work and time and not being close to the loved ones to write the scripts that others are using to create their distros.

I had the pleasure to write my own scripts and only the debugging and testing, until you make it work with no issues kills you .

So @OUI you need to understand sometimes developers will not just respond and be polite, if you would get me in the mood of some script not working i wold probably go insane .

Still i know you are a good person and everyone likes to help each other ....

Last but not least ---- Devuan is Debian with blocked systemD packages, logically the more and more systemD gets integrated in everything and other coders are changing their programs acordingly, so yes Devuan will go on it`s way .... with no SystemD if that will break some programs .... will see, but in the same time is our duty, the community, to fight and find ways to make everything work and help others in the process.

Thank You Devuan For everything you have offered !!!

Last edited by wdq (2024-05-27 20:11:56)


Just a simple man!

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#18 2024-05-28 18:43:18

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 874  

Re: Devuan est à la traîne (google: Devuan is lagging behind) !

Steve_v Its always good to derail a thread on any forum for the sake of politics but more so especially if its nonsense!

big_smile

Am I tight?

tongue

Last edited by zapper (2024-05-28 18:44:36)


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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