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#1 2020-07-16 20:56:22

thierrybo
Member
Registered: 2017-11-11
Posts: 64  

Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

Hi,

After several years using only Debian stable and then Devuan stable, I recently upgraded my computer to Devuan testing/chimaera. I use "testing" in my source.list and not "chimaera".

My stupid question: packages are pulled from Debian testing/bullseye. Knowing that Devuan follows Debian releases 6 to 12 months later, which codename packages will be pulled from after Debian Bullseye become stable and before Devuan Chimaera become stable when using "testing" in source.list? Debian Bullseye or Debian Bookworm?

Last edited by thierrybo (2020-07-16 21:13:00)

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#2 2020-07-16 21:45:19

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 246  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

thierrybo wrote:

Hi,

After several years using only Debian stable and then Devuan stable, I recently upgraded my computer to Devuan testing/chimaera. I use "testing" in my source.list and not "chimaera".

My stupid question: packages are pulled from Debian testing/bullseye. Knowing that Devuan follows Debian releases 6 to 12 months later, which codename packages will be pulled from after Debian Bullseye become stable and before Devuan Chimaera become stable when using "testing" in source.list? Debian Bullseye or Debian Bookworm?

If you have 'testing' in your sources, I believe you will start pulling from bookworm. Just use chimaera!

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#3 2020-07-16 23:16:43

golinux
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 2,075  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

@thierrybo . . . please use release names in sources.list to avoid "unintended consequences" when Devuan is still testing and the matching Debian release goes stable.  Please have a look at this page.

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#4 2020-07-17 00:14:59

aitor
Member
From: basque country
Registered: 2016-12-03
Posts: 42  
Website

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

According to the configuration of amprolla, Chimaera will be always an alias of Bullseye:

aliases = {

    'DEBIAN-SECURITY': {
        'chimaera-security': 'bullseye/updates',
    },
    'DEBIAN': {
        'chimaera': 'bullseye',
        'chimaera-updates': 'bullseye-updates',
    },
}

but, during this period, Testing will remain being the release_alias of Chimaera (despite being bullseye stable):

release_aliases = {

    'chimaera': {
        'Suite': 'testing',
        'Codename': 'chimaera',
        'Version': '4.0',
    },
    'chimaera-security': {
        'Suite': 'testing-security',
        'Codename': 'chimaera-security',
    },
    'chimaera-updates': {
        'Suite': 'testing-updates',
        'Codename': 'chimaera-updates',
    },
}

Due to this confusion, it's recommended the use of the codename over the suite in the sources.list, as golinux has pointed out several times.

Last edited by aitor (2020-07-17 00:53:37)


If you work systematically, things will come by itself (Lev D. Landau)

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#5 2020-07-17 10:49:03

thierrybo
Member
Registered: 2017-11-11
Posts: 64  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

Ok thanks, i will change to 'chimaera'  codename.

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#6 2020-07-17 21:12:06

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,142  
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Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

Use ceres instead, you'll get the upstream fixes quicker with that.


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#7 2020-07-19 03:02:27

multios
Member
Registered: 2019-02-25
Posts: 4  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Use ceres instead, you'll get the upstream fixes quicker with that.

I assume you are using ceres. How do you like it. Some years ago, I ran Debian Sid and enjoyed it, even with the occasional problem.
I'm on chimaera right now, but have been seriously considering moving to ceres.

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#8 2020-07-19 10:04:39

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,142  
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Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

multios wrote:

I assume you are using ceres.

Erm, no. I'm using Alpine Linux at the moment because I prefer a more minimal system.

multios wrote:

I ran Debian Sid and enjoyed it, even with the occasional problem

I used to run sid (briefly) and any problems were usually fixed pretty quickly by package updates. The problem with testing is the mandatory transition delay from unstable which means that if anything is broken then it can stay broken for a while.


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#9 2020-07-20 21:38:22

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 42  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

This question is not stupid at all...

I am doing tests using "testing" as repo, are you suggesting to avoid it, like I would have done with Debian, and use the name of the next release instead?

Last edited by Danielsan (2020-07-20 21:39:08)

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#10 2020-07-21 11:15:05

thierrybo
Member
Registered: 2017-11-11
Posts: 64  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
multios wrote:

I assume you are using ceres.

Erm, no. I'm using Alpine Linux at the moment because I prefer a more minimal system.

multios wrote:

I ran Debian Sid and enjoyed it, even with the occasional problem

I used to run sid (briefly) and any problems were usually fixed pretty quickly by package updates. The problem with testing is the mandatory transition delay from unstable which means that if anything is broken then it can stay broken for a while.

I didn't think about that with Devuan. Does this mean with Devuan testing we suffer twice the freeze delay? The first one when debian testing freeze, then the second one when Devuan freezes its testing?

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#11 2020-07-21 12:52:17

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,644  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

thierrybo wrote:

I didn't think about that with Devuan. Does this mean with Devuan testing we suffer twice the freeze delay? The first one when debian testing freeze, then the second one when Devuan freezes its testing?

Devuan doesn't have a freeze. We bust ass up to the last second to put forked packages into the repo before release. OK, slight exaggeration there. The time between "no new packages go into repo" and actual release is about a week, maybe two. And the time between debian testing freeze and devuan release is long. (slight understatement there)

I don't know if it's still common, but one thing people used to do with debian is run a mixed testing/unstable system. That's basically a testing system with unstable repo enabled but pinned to a lower priority. That way, you can pull selected packages from unstable to get fixes faster while at the same time avoiding pulling packages from unstable that will break stuff.

Such an arrangement will work in devuan only until debian testing goes stable, and then we're behind by one release. If you switch to the next devuan testing at that time, the forked packages won't be ready for that release. So when bullseye goes stable, I guess you would either stick with chimaera or go with pure ceres. I'm not sure which would be the least painful.

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#12 2020-07-21 15:34:26

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 42  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

This exactly what I am trying to do... Testing/Ceres... Just Unstable is too extreme for me, I had a lot of headaches with Debian Sid unless Devuan, since is delayed respect Debian, doesn't have the same issues and get all packages already fixed from upstream.

It is "safer" using Ceres compared "theoretically" with Sid?

Last edited by Danielsan (2020-07-21 15:36:07)

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#13 2020-07-21 15:58:53

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,644  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

Ceres tracks Sid. It should be no more than a few hours behind. So if you run pure ceres, you are likely to get un-devuanized versions of packages that we fork. (recent example: dbus)

But this can happen in devuan testing, too. Right now, ceres and chimaera are in pretty good shape, because someone got on the packaging early, even before beowulf was released. So you can probably get away with any combination of chimaera and/or ceres. Rest assured that something will eventually break and then eventually get fixed. That's likely to happen more than once.

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#14 2020-07-21 16:17:01

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 42  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

I see...

Can I go forward Testing/Ceres or it is better Chimaera/Ceres anyway?

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#15 2020-07-21 21:34:06

fsmithred
Administrator
Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,644  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

When I say testing, I mean whichever suite is in testing at the moment. I absolutely DO NOT mean that 'testing' should appear in your sources.

USE CODENAMES!

Whether or not you use chimaera or ceres or both is not my decision. If you're ok with unexpected breakage, then go for it.

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#16 2020-07-21 23:23:23

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 42  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

fsmithred wrote:

When I say testing, I mean whichever suite is in testing at the moment. I absolutely DO NOT mean that 'testing' should appear in your sources.

USE CODENAMES!

Whether or not you use chimaera or ceres or both is not my decision. If you're ok with unexpected breakage, then go for it.


I am ok with unexpected breakage, the amount of issues with Debian testing are really few compared with Debian Sid, I am also thinking to use BTRFS to handle issues with the updating and eventually revert to the previous status.

I am still figuring out the best option, but one thing is sure I don't like systemd as much as I don't like stable release distro. big_smile

Last edited by Danielsan (2020-07-21 23:24:05)

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#17 2020-07-24 12:27:44

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 59  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

I switched to Chimaera yesterday, and had to do a couple of APT workarounds, followed by a reboot or two (just to make sure nothing breaks). I noticed that my system is recognized as BOTH Testing and Unstable, even though my sources list is pulling packages from Chimaera only.

Distro: Devuan GNU/Linux 4 (chimaera/ceres)

Here are my sources:

deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera main non-free contrib
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera-updates main non-free contrib
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera-proposed-updates main non-free contrib

Is there anything else that I'm missing?


"In a Time of Universal Deceit — Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act" | George Orwell
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#18 2020-07-24 12:48:54

HevyDevy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-06
Posts: 358  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

brocashelm wrote:

I switched to Chimaera yesterday, and had to do a couple of APT workarounds, followed by a reboot or two (just to make sure nothing breaks). I noticed that my system is recognized as BOTH Testing and Unstable, even though my sources list is pulling packages from Chimaera only.

Distro: Devuan GNU/Linux 4 (chimaera/ceres)

Here are my sources:

deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera main non-free contrib
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera-updates main non-free contrib
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera-proposed-updates main non-free contrib

Is there anything else that I'm missing?

Not sure on the specifics but i think it is because chimeara is the testing repo for ceres, so all packages flow through to testing from ceres or something like this, ceres is like sid and will never stop being unstable whereas chimeara is testing and will eventually become stable. Someone more educated than me will have a better answer in regards to devuan though.

Last edited by HevyDevy (2020-07-24 12:51:41)

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#19 2020-07-24 12:55:30

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 59  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

I was just told by one of the developers via IRC that I only need the first line for Chimaera, as the rest are pretty much empty at the moment.


"In a Time of Universal Deceit — Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act" | George Orwell
Cthulhu 2020 | No Lives Matter

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#20 2020-07-24 15:50:14

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 246  

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

brocashelm wrote:

I switched to Chimaera yesterday, and had to do a couple of APT workarounds, followed by a reboot or two (just to make sure nothing breaks). I noticed that my system is recognized as BOTH Testing and Unstable, even though my sources list is pulling packages from Chimaera only.

Distro: Devuan GNU/Linux 4 (chimaera/ceres)

Here are my sources:

deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera main non-free contrib
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera-updates main non-free contrib
deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera-proposed-updates main non-free contrib

Is there anything else that I'm missing?

All of my 'testing' installations have always reported as testing/unstable. For example, my current Debian bullseye system reports 'bullseye/sid'. I've never worried about it.

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#21 2020-07-26 11:43:05

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 1,142  
Website

Re: Stupid question about Devuan Testing and Debian Testing

brocashelm wrote:

my system is recognized as BOTH Testing and Unstable

That information is drawn from the base-files package, which doesn't have separate versions for testing and unstable so both are referenced in /etc/debian_version.


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