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#1 2018-07-23 07:15:14

campus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-26
Posts: 15  

Installation without Session management and policykit backends

I have been using Devuan for over a year and I am very satisfied.

Thanks to Devuan Jessie it was able to create a personal Desktop with  XFCE without being obliged to install consolekit, policykit-1, gvfs,
udisks2 and even a display manager and pulseaudio (software that in most of the cases, in my opinion, creates more problems than advantages).

A few days ago I learned that the new ASCII release was released. With enthusiasm I downloaded it with the desire to migrate to this
new release as soon as possible.

The installation with Netinst proceeds smoothly, but, unfortunately, I have not been able to rebuild my personal distribution that I have with Jessie 1.0.

The obstacle I found is the impossibility of removing consolekit afterwards installed XFCE, as was possible in Jessie, without obligatorily install elogind.

It seems that it is no longer possible to use XFCE without (I quote from Ascii release notes) "to grant processes in the unprivileged user
session access to select privileged operations ".

Instead with Jessie I was able to remove unwanted software (consolekit, policykit-1, gvfs, udisks2) with the obvious inhibition for a normal user to use "task requiring administrator privileges, including suspending / rebooting / shutting down the system, mounting external devices, configuring networking, and so on ".

I do not have enough experience and knowledge to do some hypothesis on the reasons for this new situation. I do not understand why it is no
longer possible to remove unwanted software by renouncing the use of some tasks (software freedom).

I am therefore forced to suspend the migration to Ascii.

May someone kindly clarify the situation better and give me some suggestion?

Thank you all.

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#2 2018-07-23 07:59:43

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

Rather than trying to remove installed packages, you might try installing ASCII without choosing a desktop then building Xfce from scratch avoiding the meta package and only selecting the packages that you want.  This may or may not work to your satisfaction or even be possible on ASCII.  But in the past it has been a way to get around having to install unwanted, default  packages

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#3 2018-07-23 08:23:36

campus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-26
Posts: 15  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

Thank you, golinux, for your quick reply.
I certainly do not install XFCE with netinst, but I use the command: apt-get install xfce4.
Immediately after: apt-get purge consolekit policykit-1 gvfs udisks2.

apt-get does not just remove consolekit, but automatically installs elogind. and if I remove elogind back to install consolekit !!

In my opinion, the problem is in how the xfce package is built.

It should do this only if you want a normal user to use task requiring administrator privileges,
otherwise it should simply remove consolekit ... It should be possible to choose ..

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#4 2018-07-23 14:42:14

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

The consolekit/policykit stuff is complicated.  I don't begin to understand it.   But I do know those dependencies come from the login/display manager(s) which control session management. For xfce that is slim.  Maybe try removing slim and use startx instead.  Something in the xfce4 meta package might be pulling that in.

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#5 2018-07-23 15:08:52

cynwulf
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 205  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

consolekit2 was forked from consolekit by an XFCE developer as a temporary measure.  consolekit is a dead project.  The reason for this was to allow working shutdown/reboot/etc options from the GUI.  If you don't require these, then you almost certainly don't need consolekit2 installed.  thunar may be a source of the udkisks2 and gvfs dependencies if that's still a problem?  This may be because you've installed its recommended dependencies.  But ditch the display manager, as recommended above (or switch to XDM) and you should be able to safely remove most of those.

Last edited by cynwulf (2018-07-23 15:11:26)

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#6 2018-07-23 15:20:09

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

YEA! I finally found this post which explains it further:

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=8217#p8217

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#7 2018-07-23 15:23:39

campus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-26
Posts: 15  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

I agree, golinux: The consolekit/policykit stuff is complicated. So I do not want to install them! I do not even use a display manager and so I have not nstalled either slim or lightdm.

As I wrote in the initial post, in my opinion, this software, for the difficulties in becoming familiar with it, creates more problems than advantages!

In jessie, I use startx to launch a graphical session with XFCE and everything works fine. Obviously, without consolekit and policykit-1, the buttons to perform actions that require administrator privileges (such as hibernate, suspend and shutdown) are inhibited. Even the automatic mount of the devices is not allowed and I manually mount them from a root terminal.

Unfortunately I can not recreate this situation in ASCII because it seems that consolekit or elogind must be installed even so without a display manager is absent.

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#8 2018-07-23 15:40:42

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

The question is - where is that dependency being generated?   Find the source and you 'should' be able to kill it.  I have pinged irrwahn and hopefully, he will stop by with some suggestions.

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#9 2018-07-23 16:00:11

fsmithred
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 928  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

aptitude why elogind should tell you why it's there. I don't know if there's an apt-get equivalent (in case you don't have aptitude.)

Maybe start with installing standard system utilities, and then add these. I'm not sure if you'll need the last two, and there are other parts of xfce4 that aren't necessary, but you might want them.

xfconf xfdesktop4 xfwm4 xfce4-panel xfce4-terminal xfce4-session xfce4-power-manager

I'm also not sure if it's still the case, but you might need to manually install dbus-x11 to avoid some conflicts.

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#10 2018-07-23 16:10:33

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

OK . . . here's what irrwahn had to say:

<Irrwahn> golinux: My guess is it hinges on xfce4 (that is the package going by this exact name, not the DE in general), which depends on xfce4-session, which depends on polkit stuff, which in turn depends on either consolekit or elogind.

If you install xfce without the meta package as has been suggested by several of us, you should be able to avoid this issue by choosing the packages carefully to avoid the problematic ones.

And this just posted:

<Irrwahn> At least that is what I see when following up the output of:
<Irrwahn> apt-cache --no-recommends --no-suggests --no-conflicts --no-breaks --no-replaces --no-enhances rdepends *pol*kit* | grep xfce
<Irrwahn> and:
<Irrwahn> apt-cache --no-recommends --no-suggests --no-conflicts --no-breaks --no-replaces --no-enhances rdepends xfce4-session
<Irrwahn> I never tried, but it should be possible to install an xfce4 desktop in ascii from the components without pulling in policykit et.al.
<Irrwahn> Unless of course some other installed package requires polkit - there's a lot that potentially do.

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#11 2018-07-24 05:05:56

campus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-26
Posts: 15  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

Thank you all, your suggestions are precious!

I add now some information that pinpoint the problem more accurately.

1) the  debfoster --show-dependents consolekit command ensures that the only installed
package that depends on consolekit is Xfce4.

root@dev-32:~# debfoster --show-dependents consolekit
The following 1 packages on the keeper list rely on consolekit:
  xfce4
Packages kept by default rules do not rely on consolekit.

2) Following are the lines of the files /var/log/apt/history.log of Jessie and Ascii, generated with the
command apt-get purge consolekit.

In Jessie
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Start-Date: 2017-12-04  20:54:40
Commandline: apt-get -y purge gvfs policykit-1 consolekit udisks2
Purge: consolekit:i386 (0.4.6-5), policykit-1-gnome:i386 (0.105-2), gvfs:i386 (1.22.2-1), colord:i386 (1.2.1-1+devuan1), udisks2:i386 (2.1.3-5+devuan3), vfs-daemons:i386 (1.22.2-1), policykit-1:i386 (0.105-9+devuan1)
End-Date: 2017-12-04  20:54:46

In Ascii
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Start-Date: 2018-07-22  09:24:06
Commandline: apt-get purge consolekit
Install: libpam-elogind:i386 (234.4-2, automatic), elogind:i386 (234.4-2, automatic), libelogind0:i386 (234.4-2, automatic), libpolkit-gobject-elogind-1-0:i386 0.105-18+devuan2.11, automatic)
Purge: consolekit:i386 (0.4.6-6), libpolkit-backend-consolekit-1-0:i386 (0.105-18+devuan2.11), upower:i386 (1:0.9.23-2+devuan1.3), libpam-ck-connector:i386 0.4.6-6), libpolkit-backend-1-0:i386 (0.105-18+devuan2.11), policykit-1:i386 (0.105-18+devuan2.11), libpolkit-gobject-consolekit-1-0:i386 (0.105-18+devuan2.11)
End-Date: 2018-07-22  09:24:17

How you can see, the behavior of apt-get is different: in Jessie it simply purge the required files; in Ascii, instead, before removing consolekit files it automatically installs elogind and its dependencies.

It would be interesting to understand the reasons why those who built the  consolekit package for Ascii required such behavior.

Unfortunately I don't have a thorough knowledge of apt-get nor in his man pages I have found a parameter that allows to remove consolekit without installing logind.

But, there's a way to prevent apt automatically installing elogind?

Tips and suggestions are welcome!

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#12 2018-07-24 06:23:46

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

@campus . . . Don't install the meta package.  Instead install everything you want from it manually and leave out the stuff you don't want.   Or remove the unwanted dependencies from the meta package and repackage it.

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#13 2018-07-25 06:52:26

campus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-26
Posts: 15  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

Yesterday I tried to follow the suggestions of fsmithred and install its components instead of xfce4.

I started with installing "xfce4-session" because it is the only one that depends on consolekit. After installing it I tried to remove consolekit, but unfortunately the usual problem came back: apt-get purge consolekit, once again, before removing consolekit files it automatically installs elogind and its dependencies.

Since it is the only package that depends on consolekit it can be concluded that the problem arises from there.

Unfortunately I can not follow the golinux suggestion and modify this package because I do not have the right knowledge.

Is it possible to have some suggestions from the developper who built the xfce4-session package for Ascii?

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#14 2018-07-25 07:28:19

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

The functionality of xfce4-session requires either consolekit or elogind to have a working DM.  It took weeks if not months of collaborative effort to figure out how to get working DMs for all the desktops.  Since you are using startx, that package might not be necessary.  Just for giggles did you try removing "xfce4-session" entirely instead of just one of it's components?

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#15 2018-07-25 07:33:23

cynwulf
Member
Registered: 2017-10-09
Posts: 205  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

Does

# apt-get --no-install-recommends install xfce4-session

give the same result?

//edit: Never mind - just saw the above post

Last edited by cynwulf (2018-07-25 07:34:52)

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#16 2018-07-25 07:54:30

campus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-26
Posts: 15  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

Quick reply:

1) for cynwulf: consolekit isn't a recommended package for xfce4-session ... it is automatic !
    with apt-get purge consolekit ... elogind is also automatic!

2) for golinux: You are right, to use an DE with all its functionalities, a session manager, policykit-1 and
    a display manager are required. I have not checked yet if xfce without the session manager is working
    correctly. These are not simple things and should be tested one at a time. Until now I have only tried
    to reproduce Jessie's situation. If it will not be possible I will try to understand the alternatives later.

thank you both

Added at 10:49 CEST for golinux:

I really appreciate the efforts of Devuan developers to make the most DE work properly. In my opinion, however, the DE functionalities (requiring administrative privilegies)  that depend on consolekit are more related to DM (slim/lightm) than to the session manager. So consolekit/elogind must be mandatorily installed with the display manager and not with the session manager.

Nothing would change for those who use an DE with all its features, but would allow use of the DE, with some limitations, even with startx, without a DM.

Last edited by campus (2018-07-25 09:13:04)

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#17 2018-07-25 14:52:09

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

You might consider taking this discussion to #devuan-dev on freenode or the DNG mail list.  Keep in mind though that things are a bit slow in the middle of summer up north.

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#18 2018-07-26 05:13:04

campus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-26
Posts: 15  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

A partial answer to the golinux question:

In jessie, the command debfoster --show-dependents xfce4-session ensures that no package installed depends on xfce4-session; therefore it can be removed.

root@pc64-xx:~# debfoster --show-dependents xfce4-session
Packages on the keeper list do not rely on xfce4-session.
Packages kept by default rules do not rely on xfce4-session.
root@pc64-xx:~#

However it is important to evaluate what implies its removal. It may be that some DE functionality is inhibited, or at least limited. We should try and test the DE for a few days ... I hope I can do it soon on Ascii.

Even in the south, activities slow down in the summer. These days the high temperatures reached during the day invite to laze.

Thanks for the suggestion to discuss to #devuan-dev on freenode, but my poor english doesn't help me much. However, in the next days I will evaluate.

Last edited by campus (2018-07-26 05:53:41)

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#19 2018-07-26 06:14:56

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

FYI . . . It looks possible to remove if you don't install the meta package.

# apt-cache rdepends xfce4-session
xfce4-session
Reverse Depends:
  xfce4-session-dbg
  xfce4

Here we are having heat that could fry an egg on pavement.  A few days ago was over 110 F.

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#20 2018-08-09 16:38:44

campus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-26
Posts: 15  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

I opened this post weeks ago with the wish to have the necessary suggestions for to be able to migrate from jessie to the new release and continue to use Devuan without Session management and policykit backends.

I seem to have understood, in these weeks, that in releasing Ascii the main concern of the developers was to provide desktops with all the functionality.
As is well explained in the Release Notes, this requires the simultaneous use of a Display/Login Manager (DM) and a Session Manager, i.e. slim/lightdm and consolekit/elogind.

The desktop packages I'm interested in (XFCE4) are built so that a Session manager is always installed. Among the automatic dependencies of "xfce4-session" is present consolekit/elogind which can not be removed. And, though XFCE4 is modular, "xfce4-session" is essential because it installs "startxfce4" which serves to start the desktop itself.

This choice for the Ascii "xfce4-session" package certainly ensures a desktop fully functional, but prevents, for those who want it, to have an OS more lightweight without consolekit/elogind, policykit-1 and a DM.

Such a choice is incomprehensible. If you want to give up "tasks requiring administrator privileges, including/suspending/rebooting/shutting down the system, mounting external devices, configuring networking, and so on" consolekit/elogind is not required! Furthermore, the sole presence of elogind, without the login manager, is insufficient to ensure the operation of the tasks listed above. So why its presence is mandatory?

It's also the first time that I can not remove a package as root. Usually root can perform any action and has no limitation. It can happen that he performs a wrong operation: the OS will stop work, but nothing is forbidden to root! So why prevent him from removing elogind? Why not preserve the freedom of everyone to decide what to install or remove?

I don't have the skills to modify the "xfce4-session" package and therefore I am forced to suspend the migration to Ascii.

I will continue to use Jessie which I am very satisfied with. I read that it is supported until 2020-06-30 ... there is plenty of time to find a solution.

If nobody has anything to add, as far as I'm concerned, the post can be considered closed!

Thank you all.

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#21 2018-08-09 18:25:57

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

I wish you had been able to solve your dilemma.  I'm curious if your preferred setup is still possible on Stretch.

campus wrote:

I seem to have understood, in these weeks, that in releasing ASCII the main concern of the developers was to provide desktops with all the functionality.

Devuan's main concern is to provide a stable base system.  At times there has been discussion of providing only that and leaving desktop development to the derivatives.  That being said there were developers who stepped forward to provide functional desktop options for ASCII.

I don't have the skills to modify the xfce4-session package and therefore I am forced to suspend the migration to ASCII.

Well, perhaps your predicament might be incentive to learning those skills.  smile

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#22 2018-08-09 18:27:23

Ogis1975
Member
Registered: 2017-04-21
Posts: 55  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

campus wrote:

If nobody has anything to add, as far as I'm concerned, the post can be considered closed! Thank you all.

Hello and sorry for my bad English. What do you need xfce for? Perhaps it would be easier to use the .netintall image, select only the main packages (remove the check boxes from all points, install xorg and any wm and build your system containing only the packages that you need? For example, I did so. After a few searches I stayed at dwm, I installed only what I needed and got a lightweight system with 1024 packages. During the cold start, the system uses only 104 megabytes of RAM. Here screen shot
2018_08_09_212603_1920x1080.png

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#23 2018-08-10 00:03:24

fsmithred
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 928  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

The desktop packages I'm interested in (XFCE4) are built so that a Session manager is always installed.

You would probably have better luck if you stopped trying to install xfce4, which is a metapackage that does nothing but pull in other packages such as xfce4-session, which you do not want. Install the parts of xfce that don't pull in the session manager, as I described earlier in this thread.

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#24 2018-08-10 00:42:00

golinux
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Registered: 2016-11-25
Posts: 1,371  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

fsmithred wrote:

The desktop packages I'm interested in (XFCE4) are built so that a Session manager is always installed.

You would probably have better luck if you stopped trying to install xfce4, which is a metapackage that does nothing but pull in other packages such as xfce4-session, which you do not want. Install the parts of xfce that don't pull in the session manager, as I described earlier in this thread.

Indeed, that 'should' work.  I suggested it - more than once IIRC - but don't think (s)he ever tried it.

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#25 2018-08-10 05:55:18

campus
Member
Registered: 2017-04-26
Posts: 15  

Re: Installation without Session management and policykit backends

I am very amazed at the statements in the last posts of fsmithred and golinux.I report what I wrote in the past days.
In post #13 I wrote:

Yesterday I tried to follow the suggestions of fsmithred and install its components instead of xfce4. I started with installing "xfce4-session" because it is the only one that depends on consolekit. After installing it I tried to remove consolekit, but unfortunately the usual problem came back: apt-get purge consolekit, once again, before removing consolekit files it automatically installs elogind and its dependencies.

and yestrerday:

And, though XFCE4 is modular, "xfce4-session" is essential because it installs "startxfce4" which
serves to start the desktop itself.

I add today: xfconf xfdesktop4 xfwm4 xfce4-panel packages can be installed without problem and not contain dependencies from consolekit/elogind. But "xfce4-session" is essential because the desktop is started with "startxfce4" which is installed with "xfce4-session". Since I do not know, nor did I find anywhere else, another method to start the desktop, I wrote that the only solution possible is to modify the "xfce4-session" package.

The statement of golinux:

Indeed, that 'should' work.  I suggested it - more than once IIRC - but don't think (s)he ever tried it.

is unjustified and the result of his imagination.

I thank Ogis1975 for his suggestion.

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