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#1 2024-01-02 13:40:31

andyp67
Member
Registered: 2022-10-30
Posts: 228  

waylandows is crap

XFree86 is still in use, e.g., Slax distro, amongst others xfree86.org/distros

X.Org is dominant.

https://techrights.org/o/2023/08/22/wayland-and-ibm
https://techrights.org/o/2023/08/25/upg … ue-to-bugs
https://techrights.org/n/2023/10/12/Ope … twar.shtml
https://baronhk.wordpress.com/2023/08/2 … ikely-will

What is most crap about waylandows is it is about as clear as mud, even for Linux, and as for the nonsense about security, you are using a browser in X.

What basic things will we not be able to do in waylandows.
startx
Ctrl Alt console/X
setxkbmap -option keypad:pointerkeys to operate the mouse with the keyboard on a shit web page where the tab key goes nowhere.
Use a nice lightweight Window Manager like IceWM.
Have xserver-xorg-legacy installed to kill all that login seat surveillance nuisance.
legacy is not safe blah blah blah

I guess the list of basic things is a whopper.

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#2 2024-01-02 14:25:55

manyroads
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From: 20 Jan 2021 ~ "Free at last"
Registered: 2020-08-18
Posts: 73  
Website

Re: waylandows is crap

If you care to examine available detailed research on Wayland and its use... there is a lot out there. 

As for your assertions, you are correct Wayland does not natively use (m)any  of the x11 based tools you mentioned.  And it is correct to note that Wayland does not in fact work the in the same way as x11.  That is NOT a bug, that is by design. (Note: there are ways to try to get around x11 compatibility issues should you desire, but more often than not such diversions cause more problems than they solve.) Personally, I try to avoid those "patches/ fixes" and test/ use Wayland as it is/was designed & intended.

TBH Wayland is NOT crap.  It is usable. I know because I have been running using SwayWM (which runs slightly lighter than i3wm on my daily platform) for the better part of 6 months.  There are in fact areas where I believe Wayland is better than x11.  There are, also, areas where it is worse.  AND, there are MANY where it is quite different. 

As a "formerly young" person, I have to remind myself that 'different' is not bad... but it is "different'.  I, also, continually need to remind myself that I need to examine new (to me) environments with an open mind.  I need to explore with the hope of building success not condemning failure.  In other words, I NEED to learn to accommodate change if I want it, and me, to succeed. Technological change is, in fact, quite similar to adjusting to any new culture, language and life style.

I always try to remember that I run Linux. Freedom of choice is a key strength of Linux.  Not a soul can justifiably say that another is precluded from their preferred the choice(s). Remember with Linux...

you can do anything you want and when it breaks you get to keep all the pieces...

If you care to read what I discovered using Wayland on Debian and Arch you can find a bunch of materials on my site. 

https://eirenicon.org/?s=wayland


Pax vobiscum,
Mark Rabideau - ManyRoads
i3wm, bspwm, dkwm, dwm, hlwm, sway, openbox on Sid/ ceres ~ Linux #449130
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken

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#3 2024-01-02 15:48:20

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 367  

Re: waylandows is crap

manyroads wrote:

Freedom of choice is a key strength of Linux.

Indeed, and that's my main problem with wayland (and systemd, and almost everything else Redhat-IBM is doing ATM).
It's not that the software is bad, it's the way it's being agressively pushed on users and downstream distributions regardless of whether it or they are ready, by creating dependencies and intentionally breaking compatibility in ways that effectively force the use of the entire RH software stack.

Sentiment to the effect of "this is you wakeup call" "drive adoption" "force users to..." "time is up" "get with the program" etc. are not difficult to find amongst the developers involved, and this further speaks to the idea that Redhat-IBM believes they control enough of GNU/Linux development to dictate terms to other projects, end-users, and the rest of the community.
This is obnoxious, it smacks of corporate interests, and flies in the face of the "bazaar" development model that gave us so much freedom of choice to begin with.


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#4 2024-01-02 15:52:54

andyp67
Member
Registered: 2022-10-30
Posts: 228  

Re: waylandows is crap

manyroads,
thankyou for a reply.
I was hoping for contribution to this post to not be complex complicated philosophical and unconcise.
Just an example, took X.Org donkeys years to finally manage spurious display resolutions out of the box.
Just those four links above is a ton of information to comprehend.
I started with Red Hat 6, was it XFree86 or X.Org I forget.
At fifty-six years old, the big gift of life is too short to give time to waylandows crap when we've water and trees and animals and children to worry about.
If you are French I will let you off for your spelling of lifestyle as two words as you (on the street in Africa,) say du-mant or du-me (apologies for spelling!)
Greek/English is one word.
The best English speakers in the world are the Ghanaians, I bet it goes the same for the French speaking Africans I forget which country I mean.

Last edited by andyp67 (2024-01-02 15:54:51)

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#5 2024-01-02 16:03:16

andyp67
Member
Registered: 2022-10-30
Posts: 228  

Re: waylandows is crap

Maybe steve_v it is all about reconnaissance/surveillance, precisely engineered with the sole purpose to thieve information on the fly constantly.
The blood of a zaibatsu is information, not people. The structure is independent of the individual lives that comprise it. Corporation as life form.

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#6 2024-01-02 16:18:54

andyp67
Member
Registered: 2022-10-30
Posts: 228  

Re: waylandows is crap

A handful of Linux home users is an illusion, the skulduggery is across the board, Windows, Apple, Android etc., I mean it's not a fish & a bicycle, it's a Ford Chevrolet etc.

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#7 2024-01-02 16:35:03

andyp67
Member
Registered: 2022-10-30
Posts: 228  

Re: waylandows is crap

And we're gonna need xrandr to scale down these 'improved' too fracking small to read resolutions.
Just open a UXTerm and xrandr that 1920x1080 down to 1600:900.
That's better.

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#8 2024-01-02 17:29:55

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 367  

Re: waylandows is crap

andyp67 wrote:

And we're gonna need xrandr to scale down these 'improved' too fracking small to read resolutions.

Don't get me started on this idiotic HiDPI and "fractional scaling" nonsense everyone is so keen on these days (not least because it's the wayland "way").

We have DPI, a real physical property of the display device to base font scaling on, which would work just swimmingly if X didn't lie and always return 96DPI (which is a bug/regression) and GUI toolkits didn't ignore server DPI because of it.

But instead of patching the bug and fixing the mess of toolkits assuming buggy behaviour and doing their own thing, now we're hardcoding 96DPI all over the place (I'm looking at you, wayland and GTK) and adding expensive (and often blurry or unreliable) global scaling in the compositor...
So instead of selecting a preferred font size and automatically getting correct rendering for the connected display, the user gets fonts sized for an "average" display of 15 years ago and has to poke a "make it bigger" slider like a caveman until it doesn't look too horrible.
This, apparently, is progress. roll

Last edited by steve_v (2024-01-02 17:32:20)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#9 2024-01-02 17:55:22

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 310  

Re: waylandows is crap

steve_v wrote:

[...]
This, apparently, is progress. roll

The same kind of "progress" that let us run a web app today on a 3GHz CPU and 30GB RAM 8-core machine at the same crawling speed as an equivalent native app used to run 25 years ago on a 50MHz CPU and 128MB RAM single-core machine. 🤷

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#10 2024-01-02 22:32:19

soren
Member
Registered: 2023-04-30
Posts: 126  

Re: waylandows is crap

I dont quite understand how dpi works with wayland but when i tried sway, i put dpi at 101 and fonts looked terrible on firefox and everywhere else, more noticeably firefox though, but puting the dpi back to 96 corrected the shitty scaling. Is it a case of adjusting fonts on wayland instead to get better font readability?

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#11 2024-01-04 10:12:29

andyp67
Member
Registered: 2022-10-30
Posts: 228  

Re: waylandows is crap

quickfur is quite correct, the computer tool progresses yet it almost feels still like dial up, suffering the fucking Mercedes adverts, you know what I mean, isn't this primarily why we all strive to bespoke this hardware/software thieving our time, ruining what should not be an unpleasant experience.
steve_v writes very very interesting stuff about display quality which needs to be investigated and studied.
It's a wonder I've still got eyesight, I'm veteran International Press Corps, with particular WMD damage to my eyes, also ageing with hereditary glaucoma. Actually it's not a wonder, it's diet and exercise.
I like ttf-bitstream-vera and I Stanley knife by tarballing conf.avail & conf.d in /etc/fonts to force that.
Good morning. Laters.
Gratitude that some folks have the time to explore clear as mud Wayland and help others.

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#12 2024-01-04 14:02:11

andyp67
Member
Registered: 2022-10-30
Posts: 228  

Re: waylandows is crap

The other day on telly I watched that film The Martian and I was impressed that the flight director leaked some intel to the space ship with an ASCII file.
Nowadays ttf-dejavu (skeptical for many reasons,) seems to always be a dependency, ttf-bitstream vera survives, pity about ttf-freefont & ttf-liberation, like I said one can modify /etc/fonts.
A few years ago my Mum got hacked in Vista and temporarily lost 22 grand. My brother 'disposed' of the laptop & me and Mum got 2 new laptops, Asus, about 140 quid each.
I went for a 12" 1366x768 & Mum a 14" 1920x1080.
With xrandr I effortlessy change the 1920x1080 to 1600x900 or 1440x810.
I wonder how effortless it is in Wayland.
I suppose I need to bite the bullet and git me a vanguard Wayland live distro based on Debian which I and many are most familiar with since Red Hat 6.
Ubuntu?
Better would be to refractasnapshot roll my own in Devuan or Debian sysvinit minus systemd to see how much of a pain in the backside Wayland is minus systemd & pure alsa as pulseaudio modifies sound files.
Amongst other things I guess, like ifup ifdown.
I usually netinstall.iso absolute minimal (select install software untick the star for everything.)
I need ifconfig & iwconfig for numerous things.
I mean how cool is Devuan that puts net-tools (ifconfig,) on the netinst, as I've said before I think the interweb would go bang without ifconfig & route & a few other programs.
I use wpasupplicant & am not interested in anybody telling me wpasupplicant is a security problem.
Generating a random MAC in wpasupplicant iw systemd DOES NOT WORK.
ifconfig wlan0 hw ether `/usr/bin/hexdump -n6 -e '/1 "%02x"' /dev/urandom`
dummy-logind
X for me is xterm menu xserver-xorg-core xfonts-base xfonts-scalable xserver-xorg-input-evdev xserver-xorg-input-libinput (synaptics is a hack,) xserver-xorg-legacy (Xwrapper.config security feature!) x11-utils x11-xserver-utils.
I like icewm but we all know jwm is so cool as the dependencies are nothing.
Because I run with refractasnapshot I have to install xinit on the fly in order to boot into console.
I don't need a display manager.
I don't use grub, I'd rather walk round Gaza with a nail in my shoe.
Simple question, what's the score with Wayland systemd sysvinit boom boom.

Last edited by andyp67 (2024-01-04 14:06:19)

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#13 2024-01-04 14:26:05

andyp67
Member
Registered: 2022-10-30
Posts: 228  

Re: waylandows is crap

Briefly, aside from Wayland,
Separate from turning txpower down to 15.
I guess you can turn Power Management off with iw rather than iwconfig, the documentation for iw is the most absolutely horrific.
Atheros default is usually off, new Realtek chips is on and the kernel unhandled firmware interrupt is definately power management I tell you (I never needed all 6 tty doing before, to nail that one,) and Intel chips is probably that.

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#14 2024-01-07 06:00:45

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 907  

Re: waylandows is crap

This post I agree with completely for sure. Windows is indeed a crap. Pity he cannot respond here anymore. I don't know if he is perma or not.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#15 2024-01-07 06:28:34

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 310  

Re: waylandows is crap

To me, Windows sux for much the same reasons as Wayland, systemd, and other similar software. It's not so much the software itself that's so objectionable, but the philosophy behind it. The philosophy of upstream shoving their decisions down your throat, whether you like it or not. The walled garden philosophy that we're the best, and if you don't agree with us you're left out in the cold, and can go rot in hell for all we care. Compatibility? Interoperability? Not in our dictionary. Customizability? Don't even think about it.  If it breaks you get to keep both pieces. It's our way or the highway. Your use case doesn't matter cuz it doesn't exist as far as our walled garden is concerned. Choice? What's that? There is no choice except what we already chose for you.

I switched to Linux cold turkey from the MSDOS/Windows world in the 90's for this very reason, and never looked back since. It's very sad to see how today Linux is also heading in that direction, no thanks to the agenda of certain persons. Very glad to have found Devuan where I can get away from that nonsense once again.

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#16 2024-01-08 03:10:11

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 907  

Re: waylandows is crap

Yeah, I left windows because 8 was:

A: ugly

B: When I got the 8.1 upgrade, I became heavily suspicious due to the ram increase by 3X!

C: Someone I knew said that they were in an ibm meeting and asked if windows had a backdoor and everyone was silent!

That's what drove me to linux.

Although, if I had a choice between redhat's garbage and proprietary software pure and simple.

I would probably be hard pressed, but still pick the redhat method. Thankfully, I don't need to though!

Good lord is that a relief.

Although linux is starting to get ugly with their desktop environments.

Only one I would ever tolerate now is Lumina Desktop.

The others are just too bloated. Even LXDE or XFCE4. I realize now they were not my style.

Hyperbola, Devuan, OpenBSD are my primary options as of now for operating systems. Unless I am desperate in which case, I will use Trisquel as a last resort.

That would be the systemd distro I trust most. But thats such a low bar to clear for me.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#17 2024-01-08 06:11:50

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 310  

Re: waylandows is crap

These days I find all desktops bloated, and can only stand using Ratpoison. 😉

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#18 2024-01-08 23:38:29

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 907  

Re: waylandows is crap

@quickfur I only use JWM its both very fast and low memory usage. I feel like it uses the least cpu power of any of the wm or de.

Btw, the difference between JWM and other window managers? It has a nice bottom panel even without jwmkit, but with jwmkit, its 100x better still.

It really don't use much cpu power or ram as said even then.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#19 2024-01-09 01:48:43

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 310  

Re: waylandows is crap

To each his on, I guess. I never really bought into the whole "desktop metaphor" thing, and I use Ratpoison because it gets rid of overlapping windows, window deco, panels, bars, borders, and all of that fluff, and gives 100% of screen real estate to your application. Everything is keyboard-driven and the rodent can be put back in the hole where it belongs. tongue  Essentially it's a glorified graphical incarnation of the text console, and I like it that way. big_smile

(There's tiling too, for those rare occasions when I actually need to use two applications at once. But generally it just gives 100% of the screen real estate to a single application. Gets rid of all sorts of needless complexity that only serves to complicate my life or add eye candy that I don't care for.)

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#20 2024-01-09 05:22:59

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 907  

Re: waylandows is crap

@quickfur I actually do  have some keybindings set up also at the same time. So... I am doing both!


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#21 2024-01-09 08:48:24

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 310  

Re: waylandows is crap

It's not just about the key bindings, though. It's the absolutely minimal management of it all. The negation of overlapping windows, the negation of resizability (everything is always maximized within its designated pane), the negation of movability, negation of the rodent. Negating the GUI into a glorified text terminal, and negating multiple windows and multitasking into the one program at a time, one task at a time style of application management. The spartan negation of all windows decorations, task bars, and other such amenities. The rebellion against the desktop metaphor and the return to the philosophy of full-screen single-tasking. The rejection of WYSIAYG to the implicit WM in the background that does not show itself unless asked to.

Well, OK, there's tiling and stuff, but the idea is the absolute minimal WM that does almost nothing and doesn't leave any visible traces of itself.

It's not for everybody, for sure. But it fits the way I work and improves my productivity.

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#22 2024-01-09 10:12:38

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 641  

Re: waylandows is crap

Computer Mormonism? smile

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#23 2024-01-10 04:06:08

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 907  

Re: waylandows is crap

Okay, but JWM has very low cpu usage and memory usage.

But that being said, there might be others that use less memory, not sure about cpu though.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
Peace Be With us All!

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#24 2024-01-10 17:15:43

quickfur
Member
Registered: 2023-12-14
Posts: 310  

Re: waylandows is crap

How small can it be when it still supports icons and menus? wink  Ratpoison has neither. tongue  And Ratpoison has practically zero cpu usage because it doesn't do anything except when you ask it to, and it does so with the absolute minimum amount of work.  Google for ratpoison screenshots and take a look. You will not see the WM at all, because there's nothing to see; the only thing you see is the applications and their content, nothing else. No icons, no title bars, no borders, no rodent, absolutely nothing, only the applications themselves.  A WM that stays out of sight and out of mind until I ask for it, that's my kind of WM. tongue

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#25 2024-01-10 19:55:33

aluma
Member
Registered: 2022-10-26
Posts: 641  

Re: waylandows is crap

Not for the sake of argument, this is a load on the i5 M560 processor, Trinity DE. Bursts - opening applications. And the middle one is not visible at all with 100% graphics.
17.jpg

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