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#1 2023-08-24 21:49:26

Iggy64
Member
Registered: 2022-04-23
Posts: 29  

Devuan without elogind

I have several machines on which I have been running Debian and its derivatives for the past couple of decades.  Because I am more at ease with the older, pre-systemd spins, I have gravitated to using Devuan, as well as antiX.  The latter has gone so far as to essentially eliminate the use of elogind, a major component of systemd.  I have been hoping that Devuan will eventually evolve along that same path, as resources allow.

In the release notes for Devuan Daedalus, I find:

### Wayland GUI without elogind

Users can now enjoy a wayland desktop without elogind by installing
libpam-ck-connector, sway and seatd.

Ensure the relevant user is a member of the `video` group and run sway from
the terminal.

I am hoping for some added clarification:

- Are step-by-step details provided for performing the above-quoted process?

- Are there any adverse side effects that might result from this process?

- Is there an equivalent process for removing elogind when running X?

Forgive me if I have overlooked some relevant resources.  I have researched this issues without success, but am hoping someone more qualified might guide me in the right direction.  Thanks in advance!

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#2 2023-09-01 16:43:47

hunter0one
Member
Registered: 2021-12-31
Posts: 68  

Re: Devuan without elogind

Iggy64 wrote:

I have gravitated to using Devuan, as well as antiX.  The latter has gone so far as to essentially eliminate the use of elogind, a major component of systemd.

Agreed. We need better support for consolekit2 which is in fact still maintained and works well so long as other packages are built with it in mind. We don't have a lot of packages that sit well with it as of now (thinking udisks2/gvfs in particular)..

I also have the same questions so sorry for the little to no help.

- Are there any adverse side effects that might result from this process?
You will not be able to use all of the conventional features in most file managers today because udisks2 isn't without elogind and this leads to gvfs not being installable. Additionally, Network Manager can't be used but most Devuan users are probably just using ifupdown or connman.

Last edited by hunter0one (2023-09-01 16:44:25)

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#3 2023-09-01 17:40:06

Segfault
Member
Registered: 2017-02-10
Posts: 14  

Re: Devuan without elogind

I run Gentoo, I have no elogind (nor consolekit) in my system. So it definitely is possible. How convenient such a system is is for everyone to decide for themselves. I don't miss a thing. I don't have gvfs, either. Just plain Openbox with wbar and tint2.

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#4 2023-09-01 20:31:32

delgado
Member
Registered: 2022-07-14
Posts: 178  

Re: Devuan without elogind

You can always run a simulation and see what would happen, e.g.:

sudo apt install -s elogind- libpam-ck-connector sway seatd

On my machine: Beside loosing some packages, there will be consolekit and seatd for elogind.

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#5 2023-09-01 22:41:23

GlennW
Member
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2019-07-18
Posts: 602  

Re: Devuan without elogind

I just tried

apt install -s elogind- libpam-ck-connector sway seatd

Basically, over 80 lines of mostly kde packages to auto-remove,

0 upgraded, 29 newly installed, 236 to remove and 0 not upgraded.

I don't think "I'm" ready for this yet.


pic from 1993, new guitar day.

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#6 2023-09-02 07:34:57

delgado
Member
Registered: 2022-07-14
Posts: 178  

Re: Devuan without elogind

Same for me.
Adding alreaday installed programs reduces the loss, but it's just trial and error.

EDIT:
Some more runs: Added iteratively "programs to remove" to install. The next one would be acceptable, but not sure about the desktop-* packages:

apt install -s elogind- seatd udisks2 kate libpolkit-qt5-1-1 alsa-tools-gui pm-utils

The following packages will be REMOVED:
  desktop-base elogind libpam-elogind libpolkit-gobject-elogind-1-0 libpolkit-gobject-elogind-1-dev light-locker lightdm task-desktop task-lxde-desktop

Last edited by delgado (2023-09-02 07:47:45)

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#7 2023-09-02 14:29:17

hunter0one
Member
Registered: 2021-12-31
Posts: 68  

Re: Devuan without elogind

I also tried to use apt-get -s install task-mate-desktop libpam-ck-connector on my web server to see how it goes and had similar results:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 dummy-logind : Conflicts: libpam-ck-connector but 1.2.4-2 is to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

It seems in a pretty clean tty environment dummy-logind is what prevents most desktop environments from being installed. I have elogind blacklisted, but if I nullify the blacklist then it says default-logind or logind instead. Xfce can be installed with libpam-ck-connector, but then I lose udisks and thus gvfs.

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#8 2023-09-03 04:32:03

GlennW
Member
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2019-07-18
Posts: 602  

Re: Devuan without elogind

Hi, I ran with it and had to turn off elogind from starting, ...

How do I check?

No sound atm, but I was relieved to see the remove list shortened (kde stuff).

I can login, and access the desktop tools.

I have lost the shut-down and reboot buttons from the plasma start menu.

See how I go.


pic from 1993, new guitar day.

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#9 2023-09-03 05:36:16

brocashelm
Member
Registered: 2020-06-29
Posts: 114  

Re: Devuan without elogind

Note that if you don't install the daemonless "build" of Logind from the official repositories, this will cripple Polkit (e.g. Pkexec) and restrict your Xfce's session management (you'd only be able to log out). As well, NetworkManager will have to be replaced with Connman. All your KDE packages will be gone.

First thing is to install dummy-logind (prevents most of the packages from being removed), consolekit, seatd, libck-connector0, libpolkit-gobject-consolekit-1-0, udevil (for user-level drive mounting without authentication, with devmon as the daemon you have to execute), and lxqt-sudo (for authentication).

Afterwards, you'll have to look for your packages' binary files that call upon Pkexec to some extent (e.g. Synaptic, Gufw, Timeshift, GSmartControl, GParted) and replace them all with LXQt's version. It's also a good idea to adjust your Polkit rules in /usr/share/polkit-1/.

If you start your Xfce session with Startx, then change your Xinit configuration file used to exec startxfce4 --with-ck-launch.

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#10 2023-09-03 20:43:22

GlennW
Member
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2019-07-18
Posts: 602  

Re: Devuan without elogind

I tried to install my way back to a reasonable media system...

I re-installed elogind and rebooted & everything is back...
I can use synaptic package manager (required a password dialog, at least)
I have sounds
I have all the restart and shutdown buttons (so I don't have to logout and ctrl+alt+del to restart)

I will try again next time I have a clean install.


pic from 1993, new guitar day.

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#11 2023-09-04 14:51:01

hunter0one
Member
Registered: 2021-12-31
Posts: 68  

Re: Devuan without elogind

Trying to install dummy-logind conflicts with libpam-ck-connector, even on Xfce which should be the easiest conversion. It also removes a lot of things that it could potentially keep.

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#12 2023-09-04 21:59:16

GlennW
Member
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2019-07-18
Posts: 602  

Re: Devuan without elogind

This is a cross post, the removal of elogind made this system unusable.

But, I have tested the new Devuan 5.0 desktop-install iso and it worked perfectly.

:-)


pic from 1993, new guitar day.

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#13 2023-09-04 22:38:11

chomwitt
Member
Registered: 2019-09-24
Posts: 119  

Re: Devuan without elogind

In a fresh install of Daedalus with no desktop i installed:
$ sudo apt-get install elogind-  seatd sway
$ sway
XDG_RUNTIME_DIR is not set in the enviroment , aborting.

$ ps -aux | grep seatd
root  - - - -  /usr/sbin/seatd -g video

$ id
... (sudo) .. (video) ..

Strange.. but after installing :libpam-ck-connector  i saw some progress.
I say 'strange' because i have not a clue what that package does..

Ok after also installing firmware-amd-graphics , i can start by $ sway

Now although sway runs ok when ever i try to install a file manager like pcmanfm , pcmanfm-qt, thunar , dolphin
i get 'libpam-ck-connector ' will be removed. And when that happens sway wont start.

I also installed 'greetd' but i dont know how to start the login gui screen.

Last edited by chomwitt (2023-09-05 00:14:14)


Devuan(Chimaera)(Daedalus)  DS+WM: XorgX11server+StumpVM

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#14 2023-09-05 22:39:56

Iggy64
Member
Registered: 2022-04-23
Posts: 29  

Re: Devuan without elogind

I am the OP in this thread.  I appreciate all the feedback, as it broadens my knowledge on this issue.  Unfortunately, while I am a long-time Linux user, I am not knowledgeable enough to pinpoint how antiX manages to run beautifully with no trace of systemd (init) or elogind (seat mgmt, networking, device mgmt, etc.).  I suspect there are two key areas that are involved:

1) antiX does not use a full-blown desktop environment like Plasma or Xfce.  Instead, it gives you three window-manager options.  I use IceWM, and have found it easy to learn, easy to customize, and capable to meet all my needs.  I experimented with PCLOS, which also avoids elogind; but it uses Xfce, Mate, or Plasma.  I found that X would not run under Xfce unless Pulseaudio is installed.  I had more luck running Mate with plain ALSA, but had no way to pre-amp the sound for laptop speakers (ALSA plugin not available).  Anyway, I'm guessing that using a WM instead of a full-blown DE makes it easier to get around elogind.

2) Also, antiX has its own "nosystemd" repository (in addition to the Debian repos)
(http://mirrors.rit.edu/mxlinux/mx-packages/antix/bullseye bullseye/nosystemd amd64 Packages)
which reflects a tremendous amount of work by the lead developer in avoiding the complexities of systemd and its components.

I am very happy running antiX on my machines, whether ancient or squeaky new.  At boot, my ancient laptop is idling at around 150MB and is wicked fast.  And I use it on my newer boxes because it is so fast, flexible, and community sourced.

I always like to have a backup plan, though.  Devuan has been very reliable on one of my desktop boxes, and I hope the distro becomes increasingly successful.  The absence of the init from systemd is a real plus, but elogind seems to be the lion's share of systemd; so Devuan is not completely good old modular, flexible, economical Linux (yet).  It is asking a lot to work around elogind, as it has tentacles in so many key areas.  I was therefore surprised and excited to see the release notes for Daedalus mention the possiblity of avoiding elogind.   

Based on comments in this thread, it sounds like it will take some experimenting.  I'm going to try freeing up another machine for that purpose. 

Should anyone discover further clues, I would very much welcome their addition to this thread.

Thanks, again, for your responses.

Last edited by Iggy64 (2023-09-05 22:47:55)

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#15 2023-09-05 23:55:54

hunter0one
Member
Registered: 2021-12-31
Posts: 68  

Re: Devuan without elogind

Hi again Iggy64. I know more about PCLOS than AntiX, though I've tried both because they make this list. They are both great fully systemd-free options, though I will say PCLOS is definitely not server oriented (also has a problem with dependency hell) and both add quite a lot of "bling" when I enjoy having most things shipped plain and vanilla. This is the main reason I've stuck with Devuan despite elogind being needed still if you want some convenience (things like automount or a trash can) like me.

It is asking a lot to work around elogind, as it has tentacles in so many key areas.  I was therefore surprised and excited to see the release notes for Daedalus mention the possiblity of avoiding elogind.

Agreed. PCLOS uses consolekit2 in place of elogind so that KDE, MATE, and Xfce work as intended but it sometimes requires heavy patches. For operating systems like FreeBSD, this is their only option when seat management is needed, but FBSD has far more port maintainers willing to make it happen. I can't blame the Devuan maintainers for not going any further than they have already, it takes baby steps with the kind of manpower they have. I unfortunately have no clue how to do Debian packaging, despite using Debian-based distros almost my entire time on Linux, or I would investigate making drop-in packages for elogind-dependent ones. :-)

Alternatively things like turnstile might make patching unnecessary in the future.

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#16 2023-09-06 01:11:58

Iggy64
Member
Registered: 2022-04-23
Posts: 29  

Re: Devuan without elogind

Thanks, hunter0one.

Yes, I have been reading occasional blurbs about turnstile, and am hopeful regarding projects of that type.

I am certainly no IT expert, but I do have a lot of experience with Windows (required at my job) and with Linux OSes.  I have always felt more comfortable with Linux because its workings have traditionally been more understandable, providing me with less troubles and - when occasionally needed - relatively easy fixes, or alternatives. 

Unfortunately, over the past few years, it seems that the majority of Linux distros are becoming in many ways more and more like Windows -- that is, I have less and less options, the system seems convoluted and almost incomprehensible to a nonprofessional, and problem solving is more frequent and more difficult.  I understand that many professionals are pleased with the continuing integration of services within Linux, but for an amateur user like me, it brings back bad memories of trying to live with the Windows registry, complex update system, and so on.  One false move and I'm cooked.

I very much appreciate the enormous task being done by developers at antiX, Devuan, Void, PCLOS, Hyperbola, and others.  It certainly seems a huge mountain to climb.  Perhaps some collusion might be in order, despite some basic differences in the approaches being taken.

Thanks, again, for sharing your observations.

Last edited by Iggy64 (2023-09-06 16:42:37)

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#17 2023-11-29 00:28:59

rhtoras
Member
Registered: 2020-12-25
Posts: 21  

Re: Devuan without elogind

Hello people. I am skeptical about elogind too. I am not against 100% since sometimes you have to work and some tools use elogind. I know elogind is not systemD but comes to fill a gap systemD made. BSD and Illumos can use a desktop environment without elogind and this is tremendous. I like wm's and semi desktops (lumina or enlightment fit here) so i mighht give them again a shot to see what's going on.

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#18 2023-11-29 03:01:37

zapper
Member
Registered: 2017-05-29
Posts: 878  

Re: Devuan without elogind

I tried devuan's newest stable, its really a tricky thing to deal with.

I don't recommend switching to it if you expect to use synaptic without problems.

Wayland crap gets in the way preventing sudo synaptic.

Very irritating I must say.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Feelings are not facts
If you wish to be humbled, try to exalt yourself long term  If you wish to be exalted, try to humble yourself long term
Favourite operating systems: Hyperbola Devuan OpenBSD
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#19 2023-11-29 03:22:55

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 356  

Re: Devuan without elogind

rhtoras wrote:

I know elogind is not systemD but comes to fill a gap systemD made.

Elogind is a part of systemd, forked and split out into a standalone daemon. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing at all to do with "gaps".


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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