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#1 2023-01-23 00:22:46

MrReplikant
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Registered: 2022-12-03
Posts: 30  

My fears about the /usr merge

Full disclosure: I'm indifferent about /usr merge unto itself, it's the following issue that has me increasingly scared and worried.

This article details a growing conflict between debian and the dpkg maintainer over the /usr merge: https://lwn.net/Articles/890219/

This scares me, because if dpkg suddenly stops working properly, we are *all* in trouble: Kali, LMDE, AntiX, Dpup, and many others would be badly hit.

Today, it's simply packages like live-boot that have problems. Tomorrow, it becomes far, far worse. Such is my fear.

Thoughts?


systemd?  more like systemdung

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#2 2023-01-23 06:18:13

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 3,071  
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Re: My fears about the /usr merge

The merge has already happened for bookworm, it is now the default and the only supported configuration.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00001.html

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … bug=978636

FWIW dpkg seems to work fine in my bookworm system. Have you had any problems with merged /usr in your derivative?

And have you read this:

Booting Without /usr is Broken

There seems little point supporting a fundamentally broken paradigm.


“Et ignotas animum dimittit in artes.” — Ovid, Metamorphoses, VIII, 18.

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#3 2023-01-23 13:15:12

MrReplikant
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Registered: 2022-12-03
Posts: 30  

Re: My fears about the /usr merge

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

The merge has already happened for bookworm, it is now the default and the only supported configuration.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-a … 00001.html

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo … bug=978636

FWIW dpkg seems to work fine in my bookworm system. Have you had any problems with merged /usr in your derivative?

And have you read this:

Booting Without /usr is Broken

There seems little point supporting a fundamentally broken paradigm.

I have not, but the dpkg dev leaving ominous, passive-aggressive warnings for merged /usr folks is disturbing, and does not instill confidence.

I suppose, best I can do is get timeshift. Backups are good practice, anyway....


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#4 2023-01-24 06:17:10

steve_v
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Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 201  

Re: My fears about the /usr merge

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

fundamentally broken

Fundamentally broken if you run systemd perhaps. On sane distros (such as gentoo), /usr on it's own partition is just one of a great many possible configurations, in this case filed under "may require an initrd, won't work with systemd, not recommended for newcomers".
split-usr is just another USE flag, and it's up to the end-user to determine whether or not it's set. As it should be.
The same goes, of course, for systemd itself.

As of this moment, a couple of applications I use still have file-collisions (in this case upstream binary names) with a symlinked /bin/, so I'll flip that flag when (and if) I'm good and ready.

I notice a large percentage of the "in-comprehensive list of software" in that link you posted appear to be products of the redhat/LP/gnome/freedesktop cabal... Purely coincidental I'm sure. roll

Last edited by steve_v (2023-01-24 06:24:09)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#5 2023-01-24 06:47:01

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
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Posts: 3,071  
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Re: My fears about the /usr merge

steve_v wrote:

Fundamentally broken if you run systemd perhaps

Not really, systemd will still (mostly) work without /usr mounted, as my link makes clear.

steve_v wrote:

On sane distros (such as gentoo)

Lol. I'm sure your Gentoo system is configured correctly but for people like me it just gives *many* more opportunities to fuck things up.

EDIT: just for laughs:

urxvt(7) wrote:

I use Gentoo, and I have a problem...

There are two big problems with Gentoo Linux: first, most if not all Gentoo systems are completely broken (missing or mismatched header files, broken compiler etc. are just the tip of the iceberg); secondly, it should be called Gentoo GNU/Linux.

For these reasons, it is impossible to support rxvt-unicode on Gentoo. Problems appearing on Gentoo systems will usually simply be ignored unless they can be reproduced on non-Gentoo systems.

steve_v wrote:

I notice a large percentage of the "in-comprehensive list of software" in that link you posted appear to be products of the redhat/LP/gnome/freedesktop cabal... Purely coincidental I'm sure.

Yes, it is outrageous how much work and effort those companies go to in respect of the Linux ecosystem. Bastards, the lot of them roll

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2023-01-24 06:49:31)


“Et ignotas animum dimittit in artes.” — Ovid, Metamorphoses, VIII, 18.

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#6 2023-01-24 07:26:01

steve_v
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Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 201  

Re: My fears about the /usr merge

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

for people like me it just gives *many* more opportunities to fuck things up.

Stick to the profile defaults then, and it's just Arch with more waste heat and fewer linking problems. @preserved-rebuild goes "Brrr" tongue

As for broken compilers... Well, if you want to break your compiler that's optional as well.

Last edited by steve_v (2023-01-24 07:29:09)


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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#7 2023-01-24 16:08:46

blackhole
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Registered: 2020-03-16
Posts: 84  

Re: My fears about the /usr merge

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Yes, it is outrageous how much work and effort those companies go to in respect of the Linux ecosystem. Bastards, the lot of them roll

And all of that effort is focused on their own business agenda.  Which may or may not be in line with a users best interests...  usually it isn't.

Their motives certainly aren't altruistic.

I read the link and came to the same conclusions as steve_v.  It's a "damage control" piece from a typical mouth piece of the Red Hat/freedesktop.org/gnome project, etc camp.  systemd project is well noted for producing such pieces of work over the years - blame shifting, offsetting, setting up strawman attackers of systemd and then going to great lengths to denounce them.  Whether it's systemd's fault or not, it's typical systemd strategy.  But you should consider why systemd project always feel the need to write these patronising "it's not our fault" pieces.

Last edited by blackhole (2023-01-24 16:10:56)

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#8 2023-01-24 16:23:57

MrReplikant
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Registered: 2022-12-03
Posts: 30  

Re: My fears about the /usr merge

I never intended this to turn to a mud slinging contest. Fellas, this merge is not a hill to die on. That isn't even my true concern, my concern is whether or not the people behind dpkg will actually get it together and do what it takes to prevent problems with it, because problems at the stream source effects EVERYTHING downstream. Not just us.


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#9 2023-01-24 17:09:18

Head_on_a_Stick
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From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 3,071  
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Re: My fears about the /usr merge

MrReplikant wrote:

I never intended this to turn to a mud slinging contest. Fellas, this merge is not a hill to die on.

Don't worry OP, there's no mud here. I'm always happy to read the frank opinions of experienced people like steve_v and blackhole. It's all good :-)

MrReplikant wrote:

my concern is whether or not the people behind dpkg will actually get it together and do what it takes to prevent problems with it

It's not that dpkg is broken, as such, it's just that usrmerge induces packaging-related bugs, as described here. The system in general should keep on working.

I've just encountered one such bug myself when I tried dpkg-fsys-usrunmess(8) on my usrmerged system — it failed on the base-files postinst script and so completely broke APT. I had to move the postinst out of the way then reinstall usrmerge (with the --allow-remove-essential option) to get things working again. Yikes.


“Et ignotas animum dimittit in artes.” — Ovid, Metamorphoses, VIII, 18.

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#10 2023-01-24 19:40:31

steve_v
Member
Registered: 2018-01-11
Posts: 201  

Re: My fears about the /usr merge

blackhole wrote:

may or may not be in line with a users best interests.

Oh don't be silly, redhat knows your best interests, and they're working hard to turn that nasty open-source "bazaar" of disorganised, quarrelsome nerds and their toys into a shiny, polished, corporate friendly product you can be proud to use. Trust me, you're going to absolutely love it (or else...) tongue

*begins countdown for this "warning" becoming a hard-nope, complete with another asinine "Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call." from some droid over at freedesktop.org*


Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Four times is Official GNOME Policy.

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