A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

jacksprat · 2022-02-01 10:09:32

I noticed that there has been recent discussion of the future of Devuan: "As Debian 11 moves closer to Devuan (init diversity). Is there any reason to stay on Devuan?"

Whilst I started out with Devuan as soon as it existed, and install every new version, I moved to Void Linux in recent years. For this reason, I have not wanted to take part in these discussions. However, I hope I can help broaden the scope.

Many of the distributions that were absorbed into the systemD world have spun-off variants with systemD removed: Arch has Artix; Debian has Devuan, AntiX. I cannot imagine how difficult it is to remove systemD from the Debian/Arch bases and to maintain this. The prospect of systemD "infecting" the Linux kernel source code is too scary to think about.

At the same time, there seems to be uncertainty whether Slackware and Gentoo can continue to resist the lure of systemD.

At 1.3 million lines of code, I cannot see the Redhat/systemD camp deciding that it was all a horrible mistake.

Devuan/AntiX, Artix and Void all have different release models, init systems, package managers , packages repositories, Linux Kernels, etc. I am sure that each would defend their respective camps. But imagine a world where there were just "packages" in some common format supporting dependency resolution. That would lead to a single "base" distribution, but not an end to the diversity within the Linux world. Everyone has favourite Desktop Environments, collections of tools, web browsers, etc, but don't want the hassle of bringing them together to form a distribution. This would have the effect of bringing us closer to a common Linux distribution without removing the diversity that is lacking in the Windows and Apple worlds.

This would be different from what systemD has been doing, ever extending its reach into many elements of the Linux userland.

Probably never going to happen in my lifetime, but it might be the key to defeating the systemD cancer. In the meantime, I'll continue to use Void, keeping Devuan in reserve.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2022-02-01 15:38:21

jacksprat wrote:

systemD

What is that? Do you in fact mean "systemd"? FFS...

jacksprat wrote:

But imagine a world where there were just "packages" in some common format supporting dependency resolution.

That already exists: https://www.pkgsrc.org/

blackhole · 2022-02-01 15:58:28

jacksprat wrote:

The prospect of systemD "infecting" the Linux kernel source code is too scary to think about.

That may be the product of fear mongering. Linux is not just GNU/Linux + systemd. In fact it's mainly Android:

https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/18/2244 … oogle-2021

That's over 85% of mobile devices.

Desktops are < 2%.

Servers and embedded (including smartphone OS) is the main market for Linux, that's what the corporate funding is all about. Of those only servers and only those server products from Red Hat, SUSE and Canonical are really invested in systemd. But make no mistake about it, they want users and exposure.

Desktop distributions get it, because they are well downstream and serve as free beta testers for those enterprise server OS. systemd entanglement with the gnome project (another Red Hat funded project) also ensures that systemd is shoehorned into desktops as much as possible, to increase the numbers further. Consider that most of the major desktop distributions are corporate owned or funded - or reliant on a distribution that is. systemd does more and more, because it's goal is to achieve as wide adoption as possible. Those desktop distributions are after all hardly different to their server counterparts.

It's about cheap development - developing the kind of software that Microsoft and historically the likes of HPE and IBM had to pay out many, many hundreds of millions to develop, maintain and support over decades.

Last edited by blackhole (2022-02-01 16:41:41)

andyprough · 2022-02-01 22:28:37

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

jacksprat wrote:
systemD
What is that? Do you in fact mean "systemd"? FFS...

The OP was probably referring to IBM's system-D and just missed the hyphen. No need to get angry over a simple missed key press.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

That already exists: https://www.pkgsrc.org/

You mis-spelled https://github.com/void-linux/xbps. See? Keyboard errors can happen to anyone.

Last edited by andyprough (2022-02-01 22:29:48)

MiyoLinux · 2022-02-02 03:36:06

andyprough wrote:

You mis-spelled...

So did you.

andyprough · 2022-02-02 16:08:44

MiyoLinux wrote:

andyprough wrote:
You mis-spelled...
So did you.

Alternative forms
mis-spell

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/misspell

'Misspell' is most commonly mis-spelled as "mispell", whereas 'misspelled' is most commonly mis-spelled as "misspelt". Misspell is one of the 100 most commonly mis-spelled words in English, but not in its alternate form 'mis-spell'.

hevidevi · 2022-02-03 13:36:01

I play around with a few linux but my main machine runs encrypted openbsd and dwm / suckless setup. I think in future i will base most of my computer needs around if it will work properly on openbsd first. I like where Devuan is heading being init free but that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the future of computing.

Last edited by hevidevi (2022-02-03 13:37:29)

andyprough · 2022-02-03 17:10:08

hevidevi wrote:

I play around with a few linux but my main machine runs encrypted openbsd and dwm / suckless setup. I think in future i will base most of my computer needs around if it will work properly on openbsd first. I like where Devuan is heading being init free but that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the future of computing.

Regarding DWM, I'm assuming you can just 'git clone' and 'make install' like on Devuan? Does openbsd have all the libxft-dev libx11-dev and libxinerama-dev dependencies?

Head_on_a_Stick · 2022-02-03 17:29:03

I used to make my own port for dwm, customised to my tastes. It's actually simpler than making De{bi,vu}an packages: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/ports/

The comp & xbase file sets are needed to make the port but they're part of the base system. There is a vanilla example available as well: https://github.com/openbsd/ports/tree/master/x11/dwm

EDIT: and suckless have already incorporated pledge(2) into the source code, which is nice.

https://git.suckless.org/dwm/file/dwm.c.html#l2146

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-02-03 17:40:12)

hevidevi · 2022-02-04 08:20:19

andyprough wrote:

hevidevi wrote:
I play around with a few linux but my main machine runs encrypted openbsd and dwm / suckless setup. I think in future i will base most of my computer needs around if it will work properly on openbsd first. I like where Devuan is heading being init free but that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the future of computing.
Regarding DWM, I'm assuming you can just 'git clone' and 'make install' like on Devuan? Does openbsd have all the libxft-dev libx11-dev and libxinerama-dev dependencies?

that is what i do, just git clone that way i can update it via git if there is a version change, update, etc.

openbsd needs no extra packages to make dwm, you just need to uncomment a few lines in the config.mk file that openbsd needs to run and the config.mk file tells you what to do via comments.

I comment out the Xinerama fields in the config.mk as i dont use more than one screen so not needed in my case.

      1 # dwm version
      2 VERSION = 6.3
      3 
      4 # Customize below to fit your system
      5 
      6 # paths
      7 PREFIX = /usr/local
      8 MANPREFIX = ${PREFIX}/share/man
      9 
     10 X11INC = /usr/X11R6/include
     11 X11LIB = /usr/X11R6/lib
     12 
     13 # Xinerama, comment if you don't want it
     14 XINERAMALIBS  = -lXinerama
     15 XINERAMAFLAGS = -DXINERAMA
     16 
     17 # freetype
     18 FREETYPELIBS = -lfontconfig -lXft
     19 FREETYPEINC = /usr/include/freetype2
     20 # OpenBSD (uncomment)
     21 #FREETYPEINC = ${X11INC}/freetype2
     22 
     23 # includes and libs
     24 INCS = -I${X11INC} -I${FREETYPEINC}
     25 LIBS = -L${X11LIB} -lX11 ${XINERAMALIBS} ${FREETYPELIBS}
     26 
     27 # flags
     28 CPPFLAGS = -D_DEFAULT_SOURCE -D_BSD_SOURCE -D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200809L -DVERSION=\"${VERSION}\" ${XINERAMAFLAGS}
     29 #CFLAGS   = -g -std=c99 -pedantic -Wall -O0 ${INCS} ${CPPFLAGS}
     30 CFLAGS   = -std=c99 -pedantic -Wall -Wno-deprecated-declarations -Os ${INCS} ${CPPFLAGS}
     31 LDFLAGS  = ${LIBS}
     32 
     33 # Solaris
     34 #CFLAGS = -fast ${INCS} -DVERSION=\"${VERSION}\"
     35 #LDFLAGS = ${LIBS}
     36 
     37 # compiler and linker
     38 CC = cc

andyprough · 2022-02-04 16:01:14

hevidevi wrote:

that is what i do, just git clone that way i can update it via git if there is a version change, update, etc.
openbsd needs no extra packages to make dwm, you just need to uncomment a few lines in the config.mk file that openbsd needs to run and the config.mk file tells you what to do via comments.
I comment out the Xinerama fields in the config.mk as i dont use more than one screen so not needed in my case.

Nice, I'm going to have to try it soon. Very much appreciated.

andyprough · 2022-02-04 16:05:45

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

EDIT: and suckless have already incorporated pledge(2) into the source code, which is nice.
https://git.suckless.org/dwm/file/dwm.c.html#l2146

Wow! Do we have anything like pledge in Linux-land? Looks like a security must-have.

JWM-Kit · 2022-02-04 16:40:20

I would think all FOSS software would pledge to maintain Richard Stallman's four essential freedoms of free software.

Head_on_a_Stick · 2022-02-04 17:54:02

andyprough wrote:

Do we have anything like pledge in Linux-land?

It can almost be mimicked by using capabilities(7) but the implementation wouldn't be as straightforward. The init-system-that-shall-not-be-named (or spelled correctly) offers capability-based restrictions for unit files: https://manpages.debian.org/bullseye/sy … PABILITIES

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-02-04 18:37:14)

JWM-Kit · 2022-02-04 19:58:15

Interesting. I've noticed there are many things this misspelled init-system does do well. Despite all it's drawbacks it would be wise to learn from the things it does do well.

torquebar · 2022-03-17 01:33:31

Ok, so what's to say that Debian will not at some day revert to systemd just as easily as soon as everyone returns to the fold? Once such a rift cracks open there CAN BE NO turning back! I don't even consider any distro that so much as makes systemd available! Question is, can Devuan exist if Debian goes totally under? THAT I cannot answer being just a mortal who has no use for a computer beyond plugging my guitar into it or tooling around with the google flt-sim.

my 2 cents

--
https://i.imgur.com/kvN9DNF.png

Head_on_a_Stick · 2022-07-17 08:22:31

Bump!

andyprough wrote:

Do we have anything like pledge in Linux-land? Looks like a security must-have.

We do now:

Porting OpenBSD pledge() to Linux

Nice.

andyprough · 2022-07-17 15:05:57

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Bump!
andyprough wrote:
Do we have anything like pledge in Linux-land? Looks like a security must-have.
We do now:
Porting OpenBSD pledge() to Linux
Nice.

Wow, who better than a world famous internet troll to create a perfect security tool for Linux? Way to go Justine! She's the kind of highly productive troll I want to be when I grow up.

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#1 2022-02-01 10:09:32

A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#2 2022-02-01 15:38:21

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#3 2022-02-01 15:58:28

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#4 2022-02-01 22:28:37

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#5 2022-02-02 03:36:06

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#6 2022-02-02 16:08:44

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#7 2022-02-03 13:36:01

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#8 2022-02-03 17:10:08

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#9 2022-02-03 17:29:03

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#10 2022-02-04 08:20:19

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#11 2022-02-04 16:01:14

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#12 2022-02-04 16:05:45

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#13 2022-02-04 16:40:20

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#14 2022-02-04 17:54:02

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#15 2022-02-04 19:58:15

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#16 2022-03-17 01:33:31

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#17 2022-07-17 08:22:31

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

#18 2022-07-17 15:05:57

Re: A Possible Future For Devuan and Linux

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