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#1 2022-01-27 19:38:32

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 96  

Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Dear Folks,

I downgraded from Testing to Chimaera because I elected FreeBSD as my main distro. I opted for a dual boot, I am still using Devuan but only 10% of my tasks, my kid homework relies on Devuan and I don't have time to deal with another OS.

This time rather than openRC I opted for Runit and it works incredibly well, I am very surprised!

Devuan/Runit is probably the best Linux distro I ever used, it is perfect, everything works out of the box, for a "standard" desktop use is the best. I can't tell more about server tasks, also because I am moving everything toward FreeBSD, the very big limit about Devuan on the server space is the lack of documentation not only official but also blog articles, etc...

The infamous campaign against Devuan left hits wounds unfortunately!

If someone would ask if FreeBSD is better than Devuan I will have hard time to say yes! It is not a question better or worst it is more I am in disagreed with the Linux direction (read Red Hat/IBM leads) but as a matter of fact on my current workstation Devuan work out of the box but Cuda while with FreeBSD I am still fighting to make everything working, with a lot of headaches, even though is a quite old computer (but still powerful). However it is funny learning how to tuning FreeBSD while with Devuan there is anything much to do.

As usual the limit with Devuan (and Debian) stable is the software not always up to date. Beside Flatpak which is not my favorite anymore: read this to understand; other tools are coming in to supply recent software if you need newer version but you do not want backports or flatpak, such as: Appeimage Pool.

Eventually you can still continue to use the classic method as described in these Gemini links:

gemini://gnuser.land/gemlog/2021-07-02-telescope-part-one.gmi
gemini://gnuser.land/gemlog/2022-01-26-compiling-lagrange-on-debian-devuan-part-02.gmi

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#2 2022-01-27 23:00:08

andyprough
Member
Registered: 2019-10-19
Posts: 235  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Danielsan wrote:

Eventually you can still continue to use the classic method as described in these Gemini links:

gemini://gnuser.land/gemlog/2021-07-02-telescope-part-one.gmi
gemini://gnuser.land/gemlog/2022-01-26-compiling-lagrange-on-debian-devuan-part-02.gmi

Is that your gemini capsule? That's very well organized and filled with useful links. I'm going to make that my Lagrange homepage for awhile.


Primary Computer - Commodore 64: Processor - MOS 6510/8500, 1.023MHz; Memory - 64kb RAM, 20kB ROM - 8k BASIC V2, 8k Kernel, 4k Character ROM; Display output - 320x200, 16 colours; OS - BASIC V2.0; Weight: 1.8kg

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#3 2022-01-28 04:00:28

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 96  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Oh gosh... I burned my coverture... ๐Ÿ˜›

Thanks, my home page is the gate from where I can reach my favorite capsule, but my homepage change depending by the devices, on my computer is Antenna while on my mobile is Station.

The gemlog is moving very slow for lacking of time... ๐Ÿ˜ž

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#4 2022-01-28 05:10:41

andyprough
Member
Registered: 2019-10-19
Posts: 235  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Danielsan wrote:

The gemlog is moving very slow for lacking of time... ๐Ÿ˜ž

But there's so much detail in your posts, and they are so well organized. And you've linked to a lot of useful gemini tools. It's a perfect place for an aspiring geminaut like myself to sit down and learn.

Have you looked into openbsd much? I've heard and read from a lot of people who are dismayed by the direction that GNU/Linux has gone (similar to you, based on some of your gemlogging) are turning to openbsd. If you have thoughts on why freebsd is superior, I'd be interested to hear them.


Primary Computer - Commodore 64: Processor - MOS 6510/8500, 1.023MHz; Memory - 64kb RAM, 20kB ROM - 8k BASIC V2, 8k Kernel, 4k Character ROM; Display output - 320x200, 16 colours; OS - BASIC V2.0; Weight: 1.8kg

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#5 2022-01-28 10:20:37

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 169  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

OpenBSD tends to put less on your disk than FreeBSD, (& that is why it is my backup system), should Linux be taken over by the 'commercial interests' completely. wink

Devuan is a great distro, (especially if you install from the 'live'), for a desktop. smile

P.S. Ultimately, it will depend on who has the best O/S for my ARM based RPi SBCs - so far it's Devuan. big_smile

Last edited by Camtaf (2022-01-28 10:22:43)

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#6 2022-01-28 15:20:48

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 96  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

andyprough wrote:

Have you looked into openbsd much? I've heard and read from a lot of people who are dismayed by the direction that GNU/Linux has gone (similar to you, based on some of your gemlogging) are turning to openbsd. If you have thoughts on why freebsd is superior, I'd be interested to hear them.

I was undoubted between FreeBSD and OpenBSD but eventually I opted for the first for a bunch of reason: great documentation, more software, great community, ZFS, more automation.

Even if FreeBSD is bigger than OpenBSD the interest around it is 80% server and 20% desktop, although is a general purpose OS the majority of people approach FreeBSD for ZFS and what you can achieve in the server space. From FreeBSD the effort is to keep the desktop relevant but there is any predefined DE hence no one works well as in Devuan for instance.

OpenBSD is a distro that is mainly oriented for the Desktop use, respect FreeBSD has better hardware support, for security reason it still uses FS filesystem (the slowest filesystem ever), nothing works with automation (I mean plugging a pendrive requires the use of CLI), it has its own default WM, CWM, that works perfectly and is perfectly integrated. By default OpenBSD creates a great development enviroment!

If you are on the coding side OpenBSD might be a better options. I found OpenBSD too extreme for my habits, already FreeBSD doesn't do anything if you don't set up it to make that tasks, but OpenBSD goes beyond, I do not want mount a pendrive through a terminal, but most people find this behavior better.

Most important is the hardware compatibility. You may find that FreeBSD and probably OpenBSD are ten years behind Linux. It is well known that Intel stuff (wifi, ethernet, etc...) works pretty good on the BSD all the others hardware vendors are problematic (specially wifi). My old laptop is supported but there is a very annoying bug that prevent me to use the ethernet adapter if I step before on Linux and then in FreeBSD.

The transition is smoother if you have as first requirement the conviction that you want really change your habits; as second suggestion you may use a virtual machine to see how much you will able to reproduce your usual workflow in a different OS even though the difference might be minimal, before to switch I have been using FreeBSD on a virtual machine for months, I decided to use FreeBSD as my OS for my Gemini server, using FreeBSD as server is easier because the installation is modular and by default the only services it enables are DHCP and SSH hence you have very minimal installation by default; lastly your hardware is well recognized and doesn't requires too much troubleshooting, NomadBSD is a derivative of FreeBSD made to run from pendrive it can help you to test your hardware compatibility, if it works fine with FreeBSD then it will likely work with OpenBSD as well.

Last thing is the dual-boot if you want preserve for instance Devuan like I do. These are my considerations but my impression is the BSDs do not consider the dual-booting a condition, they expect to be your only OS like Windows does. If you use efi you can use Refind to manage boot order, if you don't use EFI you must create a manual entry on Grub since Linux doesn't recognize BSD. The Linux behavior is to consider itself as alternative OS to Windows but anything else.

To close my suggestion is go to Virtual Machine, learn how to install FreeBSD or OpenBSD (I have a simple guide for FreeBSD on my capsule), try to reproduce your workflow, check if the software you like are available. Remember that DRM/EME doesn't not work any BSD hence you will not have any streaming services, spotify maybe works through a TUI software, if you rely on closed software these will not be available, etc. There is a compatibility layer between FreeBSD and Linux called Linuxulator that allows to use software that is specifically design for Linux and through which you can install Chrome or Vivaldi but I didn't check that out since I left my Linux partition to use also this crap.

The only missing part here is now just your curiosity! ๐Ÿ˜‰

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#7 2022-01-28 18:08:49

Camtaf
Member
Registered: 2019-11-19
Posts: 169  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

OpenBSD is a distro that is mainly oriented for the Desktop use

Definitely not so, their priority is security!

(Desktop use is accepted, but definitely not a priority.) wink

nothing works with automation (I mean plugging a pendrive requires the use of CLI), it has its own default WM, CWM

As stated above, no auto mounting of external media is a security feature - & CWM was written by the OpenBSD team!



But I will concede, there may be a lack of drivers for some hardware, compared to FreeBSD, but if it is supported, it's a great O/S.

As always though, whatever suits you is the one to use. smile

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#8 2022-01-28 18:34:46

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 96  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Yes I agreed, mostly are my thoughts regarding OpenBSD caused I noticed there is a lot of interest around the Desktop usage.

Last edited by Danielsan (2022-01-28 18:35:07)

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#9 2022-01-28 20:41:36

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,326  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Danielsan wrote:

You may find that FreeBSD and probably OpenBSD are ten years behind Linux.

Not really. I don't know about FreeBSD but OpenBSD works just fine on my brand new Ryzen 5850U laptop. The 7.0 release brought in the DRM stack from Linux 5.10.65 and so supports Intel Tiger Lake and AMD Navi 12 & 21 "Sienna Cichlid", Arcturus & Cezanne "Green Sardine" GPUs. And in my experience although hardware support for OpenBSD isn't as broad as with Linux the quality and longevity is *much* better. YMMV.

A word of warning though: opponents of systemd probably won't like the BSDs because all of the user space utilities are developed by the exact same team that provides /sbin/init, just like with Lennart & co... [/troll]


To obtain a root shell use su -. Using just su will result in "command not found" messages.

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#10 2022-01-28 20:57:15

andyprough
Member
Registered: 2019-10-19
Posts: 235  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

A word of warning though: opponents of systemd probably won't like the BSDs because all of the user space utilities are developed by the exact same team that provides /sbin/init, just like with Lennart & co...

So you're saying they all get paid by IBM to put backdoors into the BSDs so that government spies can steal all our data?


Primary Computer - Commodore 64: Processor - MOS 6510/8500, 1.023MHz; Memory - 64kb RAM, 20kB ROM - 8k BASIC V2, 8k Kernel, 4k Character ROM; Display output - 320x200, 16 colours; OS - BASIC V2.0; Weight: 1.8kg

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#11 2022-01-28 21:02:09

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,326  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Don't be silly. Governments put backdoors in places like hard drive controller firmware where the operating system is irrelevant. EDIT: that even works with coreboot big_smile

Last edited by Head_on_a_Stick (2022-01-28 21:03:29)


To obtain a root shell use su -. Using just su will result in "command not found" messages.

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#12 2022-01-28 21:53:49

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 96  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

A word of warning though: opponents of systemd probably won't like the BSDs because all of the user space utilities are developed by the exact same team that provides /sbin/init, just like with Lennart & co... [/troll]

You sure? I listen BSDNow everyday and they are constantly taking the distance from systemd and RedHat. Also they always marks that FreeBSD is a not-profit foundations why Linux is not.

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#13 2022-01-28 23:02:31

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,326  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Danielsan wrote:

You sure?

Yes. All true UNIX systems provide a unified set of user space tools along with /sbin/init. The BSDs are closer to true UNIX than Linux so they emulate that approach.

I made no comment about commercial influences.

I will now though:

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html โ† both Google and Microsoft are regulars in that list.

https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-donors/donors/ โ† Facebook as a top level contributor? Really? lol


To obtain a root shell use su -. Using just su will result in "command not found" messages.

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#14 2022-01-29 01:00:11

sgage
Member
Registered: 2016-12-01
Posts: 293  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Danielsan wrote:

You sure?

Yes. All true UNIX systems provide a unified set of user space tools along with /sbin/init. The BSDs are closer to true UNIX than Linux so they emulate that approach.

I made no comment about commercial influences.

I will now though:

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html โ† both Google and Microsoft are regulars in that list.

https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-donors/donors/ โ† Facebook as a top level contributor? Really? lol

Seems like there is nothing that can't be and isn't being coopted. It is the genius of capitalism, and I've seen it over and over again. Anything good and free is bought out sooner or later. Or so it seems. We live in a shit culture.

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#15 2022-01-29 06:05:52

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 96  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:
Danielsan wrote:

You sure?

Yes. All true UNIX systems provide a unified set of user space tools along with /sbin/init. The BSDs are closer to true UNIX than Linux so they emulate that approach.

I made no comment about commercial influences.

I will now though:

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html โ† both Google and Microsoft are regulars in that list.

https://freebsdfoundation.org/our-donors/donors/ โ† Facebook as a top level contributor? Really? lol

The whole point between BSD and GNU is the former uses tools licensed as BSD and the latter as GPL and when one needs a tool that belongs to the other it will write its own version with its preferred license. FreeBSD has even deprecated GCC in favor of LLVM/CLang...

I would not care about having infiltration of these corporations, those are everywhere it is a part of the capitalism control, however I would be more concerned when those companies are in the GPLed space because the GPL licenses make the opensource manipulable; by the other hand the BSD licenses do not make the opensource manipulable because corporations can distribute software without giving back the source and rarely help unless it is so strategic that is worth contributing with code even if it will have $0 of ROI.

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#16 2022-01-29 11:11:58

Head_on_a_Stick
Member
From: London
Registered: 2019-03-24
Posts: 2,326  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

But the GPL is the reason why hardware support for Linux is so broad โ€” if the companies want to use the licensed code then they are forced to share any changes they make afterwards.


To obtain a root shell use su -. Using just su will result in "command not found" messages.

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#17 2022-01-29 17:42:29

andyprough
Member
Registered: 2019-10-19
Posts: 235  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

Don't be silly. Governments put backdoors in places like hard drive controller firmware where the operating system is irrelevant. EDIT: that even works with coreboot big_smile

Not true - as we found out from Snowden, the NSA guys don't care about your hard drive. They spend all their time trying to use your webcam to see people walking around naked in your house.

"webcamd" is probably built into the systemd "parental controls" module just for that purpose.


Primary Computer - Commodore 64: Processor - MOS 6510/8500, 1.023MHz; Memory - 64kb RAM, 20kB ROM - 8k BASIC V2, 8k Kernel, 4k Character ROM; Display output - 320x200, 16 colours; OS - BASIC V2.0; Weight: 1.8kg

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#18 2022-01-31 14:04:55

Danielsan
Member
Registered: 2020-07-14
Posts: 96  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

But the GPL is the reason why hardware support for Linux is so broad โ€” if the companies want to use the licensed code then they are forced to share any changes they make afterwards.

I don't see any relationship with GPL and hardware support, hardware vendors have been always free to deliver opens-source drivers and still refuse to embrace it fully, and as a matter of fact the Linux kernel is shipped by default with an horrific amount of binary blobs. The synergy behind the GPL is elsewhere in all those stacks that made modern computers so awful.

Last edited by Danielsan (2022-01-31 21:18:48)

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#19 2022-01-31 17:09:34

blackhole
Member
Registered: 2020-03-16
Posts: 65  

Re: Downgraded to Devuan Chimaera...

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/contributors.html โ† both Google and Microsoft are regulars in that list.

Most contributions to OpenBSD are really just contributions to OpenSSH.  Microsoft at least have thrown some money at the project, which is more than you can say about the likes of Red Hat for example.
Influence wise, knowing how the OpenBSD project is managed and run, Microsoft have very little if any of that.  The Linux Foundation, with it's members, board of directors and technical advisory board made up of "Big Tech" is a very different story.

OpenBSD is a tiny project, Linux is a massive corporate sponsored project.  No comparison is worthwhile, and certainly no donations to OpenBSD from any of the "Big Tech" players has any relevance at this stage.

Head_on_a_Stick wrote:

But the GPL is the reason why hardware support for Linux is so broad โ€” if the companies want to use the licensed code then they are forced to share any changes they make afterwards.

A lot of the fabled hardware support comes in the form of permissive licenced code for proprietary hardware - relying on proprietary firmware.  The big corporations contributing to Linux are actively keeping their proprietary IP well insulated...  I for one fail to see the connection between GPL and broad hardware support.

The "support" mostly comes from paid employees contributing to the kernel.  It's been known for several years now that more than 85% of code contributions are from paid developers.

The Linux kernel is where it is today, because of the corporate contributions of developer time.

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