Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

zapper · 2021-10-05 04:25:00

As suggested by Miyolinux, I am making a thread on this:

"Actually, Hyperbola devs don't trust adding rust for this reason:

https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/77234

Also, dbus is required anyhow to use it currently...

That being said, Hyperbola devs are in a bit of a pickle, because of palemoon devs going balisitic over some users not following their trademarks which resulted in a cascade of people removing their commits from uxp. So, unless that rust issue is fixed, or someone makes a build of firefox that doesn't require dbus to run, then alas, you will have to use a VM to do that stuff... ;(

Sadly, that's become what this situation has been reduced to. Thank the palemoon devs for being a bunch of absolute morons.

I was wrong about Palemoon devs being any good it begins to seem...

I feel like OpenBSD's devs might laugh at me if I told them how I feel now, about palemoon. meh... it is what it is.

At any rate, OpenBSD is becoming tempting as a backup until rust is made into a free licensed programming language... spoiler alert: its not right now!

I wish there was a firefox build that was libre that didn't require that dbus nonsense."

If you want more information here:

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=27294
https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=27372
https://www.reddit.com/r/palemoon/comme … 20_public/

I should also add, you cannot download their addons on their websites without basilisk browser or palemoon...

Yikes... they want to become worse than firefox.

Also this too:

https://www.reddit.com/r/palemoon/comme … c_license/

Tobin supposedly began changing the licenses of his commits and in response, other devs removed their commits in retaliation to them.

Long story short... either someone else continues the fork, OR we just use firefox based browsers again.

But in my case, I don't want dbus, thus I need a way to use firefox without it. A dilemma indeed...

Last edited by zapper (2021-10-05 04:28:59)

alphalpha · 2021-10-05 15:12:52

zapper wrote:

I wish there was a firefox build that was libre that didn't require that dbus nonsense."

firefox-esr does not require dbus, only libdbus-1-3 and libdbus-glib-1-2
and unlike palemoon i dont even get an error message that i have to ignore

zapper · 2021-10-05 21:44:08

alphalpha wrote:

zapper wrote:
I wish there was a firefox build that was libre that didn't require that dbus nonsense."
firefox-esr does not require dbus, only libdbus-1-3 and libdbus-glib-1-2
and unlike palemoon i dont even get an error message that i have to ignore

Okay, but Hyperbola doesn't even have the libdbus or libdbus-glib. Thing is, I like many of their changes, the only issue is a web browser that is current and works.

My point being, I am kind of in a weird spot, I like most of what Hyperbola is, but the web browser issue is a problem.

If someone can make it possible, to remove those dependencies completely from a version of firefox-esr or w/e that would be awesome...

Even if the build was somewhat outdated, every so often.

Last edited by zapper (2021-10-05 21:44:21)

andyprough · 2021-10-05 23:58:03

zapper wrote:

Okay, but Hyperbola doesn't even have the libdbus or libdbus-glib. Thing is, I like many of their changes, the only issue is a web browser that is current and works.
My point being, I am kind of in a weird spot, I like most of what Hyperbola is, but the web browser issue is a problem.
If someone can make it possible, to remove those dependencies completely from a version of firefox-esr or w/e that would be awesome...

Well that's weird, cause I got Trisquel's Abrowser (Firefox-based) working on Hyperbola with no difficulty whatsoever. I didn't stop to look to see if there was anything named "dbus" or "libdbus" or what-not running. I guess I better re-install it and look at the Abrowser installation again. I deleted the partition so I could start over and install the Hyperbola 0.4 pre-release, but I'll go back to 0.3 and upgrade to the Testing repos and install Abrowser again and see what I get.

zapper · 2021-10-06 02:00:36

andyprough wrote:

zapper wrote:
Okay, but Hyperbola doesn't even have the libdbus or libdbus-glib. Thing is, I like many of their changes, the only issue is a web browser that is current and works.
My point being, I am kind of in a weird spot, I like most of what Hyperbola is, but the web browser issue is a problem.
If someone can make it possible, to remove those dependencies completely from a version of firefox-esr or w/e that would be awesome...
Well that's weird, cause I got Trisquel's Abrowser (Firefox-based) working on Hyperbola with no difficulty whatsoever. I didn't stop to look to see if there was anything named "dbus" or "libdbus" or what-not running. I guess I better re-install it and look at the Abrowser installation again. I deleted the partition so I could start over and install the Hyperbola 0.4 pre-release, but I'll go back to 0.3 and upgrade to the Testing repos and install Abrowser again and see what I get.

Which version are you on? 0.3.1? or 0.4...

I am curious... and also, did you remove all dbus packages on 0.4? Wondered... that will ultimately be what happens eventually I think?

Ron · 2021-10-06 03:37:56

zapper wrote:

That being said, Hyperbola devs are in a bit of a pickle, because of palemoon devs going balisitic over some users not following their trademarks which resulted in a cascade of people removing their commits from uxp.
. . .
Sadly, that's become what this situation has been reduced to. Thank the palemoon devs for being a bunch of absolute morons.
I was wrong about Palemoon devs being any good it begins to seem...

Requiring people to respect their trademarks, and the open source license, which is what I think you mean, and is the latest problem, does not make them morons. If people don't respect the open source license, then what's the point? I think those who don't respect the open source license or their trademarks are the morons who are causing all the problems.

Also, the reddit shithole is run by rabid anti-palemoon folks, so you're not going to get the facts there. As a matter of fact, they have posted outright lies. If you go there and try to post facts, you get banned. It's already happened. And your links to the Pale Moon threads actually prove my point.

Last edited by Ron (2021-10-06 03:47:35)

zapper · 2021-10-06 03:57:32

Ron wrote:

zapper wrote:
That being said, Hyperbola devs are in a bit of a pickle, because of palemoon devs going balisitic over some users not following their trademarks which resulted in a cascade of people removing their commits from uxp.
. . .
Sadly, that's become what this situation has been reduced to. Thank the palemoon devs for being a bunch of absolute morons.
I was wrong about Palemoon devs being any good it begins to seem...
Requiring people to respect their trademarks, and the open source license, which is what I think you mean, and is the latest problem, does not make them morons. If people don't respect the open source license, then what's the point? I think those who don't respect the open source license or their trademarks are the morons who are causing all the problems.
Also, the reddit shithole is run by rabid anti-palemoon folks, so you're not going to get the facts there. As a matter of fact, they have posted outright lies. And your links to the Pale Moon threads actually prove my point. If you go there and try to post facts, you get banned. It's already happened.

The point I am trying to make is more than that, in retaliation to those same people, Tobin began to change his commits from the BSD license to who knows what...
Also, they are making it much harder not just for those people to fork, but EVERYONE!

So yeah, its more than that... hate to break it to ya, but is not outright lies, also, as I said, they doing the development on their own private repo now, and that hardly seems like its in the spirit of open source. Even if it's legal so long as they provide the source code, which they are doing now.

Even a dev friend of mine, who had nothing to do with those people who caused the problem, said they noticed some conflicts of interest take place after that where the commits they had slowly were removed and changed from their current license.

I should also add, yes I know the reddit shithole is full of alot of anti-palemoon folks. That was why I didn't give it much thought until after I saw the fate of forks thread and I waited to see what would happen.

Long story short, at best they are as bad as mozilla, at worst, much worse.

Also, I should add, their trademark doesn't do diddly to prevent every entity out in the world from doing harm. I really doubt there aren't safe havens where people can get away with stuff.

This all being said, I doubt you will care, you seem to have made up your mind.

This has become a crap fest of stupidity.

PS, I don't agree with mozilla's trademarks on rust or firefox either... aka, their trademarks and palemoon's trademarks are equally stupid.

Due to their restrictive nature.

That being said, I will change what I said, mozilla and palemoon are both bad. Maybe better than chrome builds, but that's not much better in light of the problems that have occurred aka, they are supposed to be the better option!

Maybe they still are, but barely...

Last edited by zapper (2021-10-06 03:59:14)

andyprough · 2021-10-06 08:26:27

Latest librewolf and latest libreoffice running on Void without dbus.

The trick is to use the "ignorepkg" function, and after installing gtk3, remove the dbus dependencies that were installed along with it. librewolf and libreoffice need gtk3 to run, but they don't need dbus. gtk3 says it needs dbus, but there's no problem without it.

This should work on Hyperbola as well - I'll try it this week.

I was also able to install some other browsers once I had done this - surf, badwolf, epiphany, midori, netsurf, and vimb. Most of them are WebKit/GTK+ browsers. Netsurf is an independent browser with its own engine (and quite a nice one - GPL too).

Last edited by andyprough (2021-10-06 08:38:25)

zapper · 2021-10-06 23:34:56

andyprough wrote:

Latest librewolf and latest libreoffice running on Void without dbus.
The trick is to use the "ignorepkg" function, and after installing gtk3, remove the dbus dependencies that were installed along with it. librewolf and libreoffice need gtk3 to run, but they don't need dbus. gtk3 says it needs dbus, but there's no problem without it.
This should work on Hyperbola as well - I'll try it this week.
I was also able to install some other browsers once I had done this - surf, badwolf, epiphany, midori, netsurf, and vimb. Most of them are WebKit/GTK+ browsers. Netsurf is an independent browser with its own engine (and quite a nice one - GPL too).
https://trisquel.info/files/2021-10-06- … _scrot.png

Huh, its interesting you mention epiphany, because I tried it in devuan and sound works, also, I tried to build it in Hyperbola also, fascinating thing is...

It actually didn't build, but not because of any weird libraries, except for libportal, libdazzle and libhandy not being in the system as well as old libraries...

Long story short, I am not positive, but it may work as a replacement. I gotta check when they are updated though.

andyprough · 2021-10-06 23:54:39

zapper wrote:

Long story short, I am not positive, but it may work as a replacement. I gotta check when they are updated though.

Personally, I am not a fan of epiphany, but, whatever.

Netsurf is written in C, did you know that? And it's GPL2 - did I mention that? And it has its own independent browser engine, did I mention that also? Someone who hates Rust and is worried about free licensing might want to look into it, just sayin...

EDIT: Oh my goodness, I'm running Netsurf, and my total system memory usage is 144mb. That's about a third of what the big bloaty browsers bring my system ram usage to. Where has this little gem been all my life?? It's got adblocking, it's not really fingerprint-able because javascript isn't fully implemented. It's a thing of beauty. It runs on RISC OS, on Haiku and BeOS. It has a framebuffer version that doesn't require GTK. What's not to love?

Last edited by andyprough (2021-10-07 00:17:52)

zapper · 2021-10-07 00:45:26

andyprough wrote:

zapper wrote:
Long story short, I am not positive, but it may work as a replacement. I gotta check when they are updated though.
Personally, I am not a fan of epiphany, but, whatever.
Netsurf is written in C, did you know that? And it's GPL2 - did I mention that? And it has its own independent browser engine, did I mention that also? Someone who hates Rust and is worried about free licensing might want to look into it, just sayin...
EDIT: Oh my goodness, I'm running Netsurf, and my total system memory usage is 144mb. That's about a third of what the big bloaty browsers bring my system ram usage to. Where has this little gem been all my life?? It's got adblocking, it's not really fingerprint-able because javascript isn't fully implemented. It's a thing of beauty. It runs on RISC OS, on Haiku and BeOS. It has a framebuffer version that doesn't require GTK. What's not to love?

Some of us like to play videos online though...

Also, I am not sure if netsurf even is updated anymore.

Does netsurf work like that? I know there is adblocking in epiphany also.

Last edited by zapper (2021-10-07 00:49:59)

andyprough · 2021-10-07 05:06:44

zapper wrote:

Some of us like to play videos online though...

True. mpv it is then.

zapper wrote:

Also, I am not sure if netsurf even is updated anymore.

There are new updated development releases, called "continuous integration packages" that are packaged up from their git repo about once every 1-3 months, sometimes once every few days. It looks like a normal project in continual development: https://ci.netsurf-browser.org/debian/b … 4/?C=M;O=D

zapper wrote:

Does netsurf work like that? I know there is adblocking in epiphany also.

Yes, the adblocking has a toggle switch in the preferences panel, and it has been perfect for me so far today. I've only done limited testing, but no ads got through. But then again, most ads are javascript these days, and javascript is not well implemented yet in netsurf (which is a good thing). It probably won't be the browser you use to gain access to your bank account online, since they all require javascript, but for most normal webernet stuff it's looking real good.

I'm posting this message from the latest development package on my Devuan box. I grabbed version 3.10~5313-1, released on August 14th. Netsurf makes deb packages available for the development versions. You have to download the package you want (GTK2 version, or GTK3, or framebuffer with no GTK dependency), along with the "netsurf-common" deb file.

Last edited by andyprough (2021-10-07 05:07:44)

zapper · 2021-10-07 11:56:10

If only, mpv was the solution for all videos online... ;P

Alas, I like old cartoons, and some sites work with iceweasel-uxp, and not mpv.

Epiphany might actually work like iceweasel-uxp in this sense.

Either way though, we will just have to see...

It turns out though, there are some dbus issues with epiphany, but one of the devs of Hyperbola thinks it may be fixable aka, it could work without it if he gives it enough time to work on.

We'll see eh?

Maybe this is the palemoon alternative I need...

Ron · 2021-10-07 12:30:48

zapper wrote:

That being said, Hyperbola devs are in a bit of a pickle, because of palemoon devs going balisitic over some users not following their trademarks which resulted in a cascade of people removing their commits from uxp.

According to the "horse's mouth," your cascade of people is only 2. Where are you getting your information?

zapper · 2021-10-07 14:18:47

Ron wrote:

zapper wrote:
That being said, Hyperbola devs are in a bit of a pickle, because of palemoon devs going balisitic over some users not following their trademarks which resulted in a cascade of people removing their commits from uxp.
According to the "horse's mouth," your cascade of people is only 2. Where are you getting your information?

That's fair, to say, but yeah, one of the Hyperbola devs worked on UXP for a bit, but at one point, Tobin wanted nothing to do with him despite the fact that he only was trying to help make UXP better.

I would like to be wrong, but honestly, I trust Luke more in general, and long story short, they did hide their newest git development... they closed their github page. If you didn't notice, and the palemoon repo, here:

https://repo.palemoon.org/MoonchildProductions

Notice how UXP is no longer there...

They seem to be developing behind the scenes now, meaning less people can participate.

Also this is no longer worked on:

https://repo.palemoon.org/mcp-graveyard/UXP

at least there anyways...

Hmm... although this may prove your point:

https://github.com/RealityRipple/UXP

Unless Ripple is doing it without moonchild's permission...

Meh...

I am getting mixed messages so far it seems...

I did support UXP for a while, if you recall on here. To the point of arguing the same point you did which caused some threads to get locked xD.

Hmm.... I will have to think about this more...

Anywho, they still have been a toxic bunch, so I will wait and see what comes forward I guess.

hevidevi · 2021-10-07 14:21:34

Just use firefox-esr with a decent user.js to filter out all the crapware.

if you opt for no dbus configuration, dbus is not activated as andyprough mentions. The libs still need to be available but dbus is not activated so is not used in the usual way by init thus negating any security vuln in my opinion. If you know a thing or two about openbsd you will know that messagebus needs to be activated for dbus to work and firefox will run as long as the libs are satisfied.

Saying that, i dont care these days, nothing i do on a computer warrants spec-ops type privacy, im actually looking to quit computing altogether. I think it has run its course and is a doomed endeavor and blight on human interactivity.

Last edited by hevidevi (2021-10-07 14:27:16)

sgage · 2021-10-07 14:38:49

hevidevi wrote:

Saying that, i dont care these days, nothing i do on a computer warrants spec-ops type privacy, im actually looking to quit computing altogether. I think it has run its course and is a doomed endeavor and blight on human interactivity.

Ha! I've been coming around to this view myself.

zapper · 2021-10-07 14:42:20

hevidevi wrote:

Just use firefox-esr with a decent user.js to filter out all the crapware.
if you opt for no dbus configuration, dbus is not activated as andyprough mentions. The libs still need to be available but dbus is not activated so is not used in the usual way by init thus negating any security vuln in my opinion. If you know a thing or two about openbsd you will know that messagebus needs to be activated for dbus to work and firefox will run as long as the libs are satisfied.
Saying that, i dont care these days, nothing i do on a computer warrants spec-ops type privacy, im actually looking to quit computing altogether. I think it has run its course and is a doomed endeavor and blight on human interactivity.

Perhaps, but dbus will be removed from Hyperbola, at some point, thus, I see no purpose in such things.

As for computing, I don't think its completely doomed yet, unless you want newer technology, that is x86 based or arm64 based.

Actually, I will just say, anything with a backdoor like intel me or in general is a problem. Especially if it connects to the internet with that backdoor. If the backdoor is non-remote, meaning it doesn't do anything over the network, its not a huge issue as far as I am concerned.

That being said, MNT Reform gives me some hope. I await the pocket version, but yeah, 80% of hardware at least is crap due to backdoors that operate remotely and cannot be removed...

I had to add that part cause otherwise its more like 95% lol.

Last edited by zapper (2021-10-07 14:45:33)

hevidevi · 2021-10-07 14:46:04

zapper can i ask what programs you use for network on hyperbola?

zapper · 2021-10-07 14:49:14

hevidevi wrote:

zapper can i ask what programs you use for network on hyperbola?

dhcpcd-gtk is one of them

dhcpcd + wpa_supplicant both of which seem to work without dbus in Hyperbola.

and yes, wifi with wpa2 and 2.4ghz as well as 5ghz works fine.

Last edited by zapper (2021-10-07 14:49:57)

hevidevi · 2021-10-07 14:51:17

sgage wrote:

hevidevi wrote:
Saying that, i dont care these days, nothing i do on a computer warrants spec-ops type privacy, im actually looking to quit computing altogether. I think it has run its course and is a doomed endeavor and blight on human interactivity.
Ha! I've been coming around to this view myself.

The web of deceit.... The dragnet.

Really look at the word an meanings of computing,networking etc.

web (spiders web) net (fishing net).

hevidevi · 2021-10-07 14:59:36

zapper wrote:

hevidevi wrote:
zapper can i ask what programs you use for network on hyperbola?
dhcpcd-gtk is one of them
dhcpcd + wpa_supplicant both of which seem to work without dbus in Hyperbola.
and yes, wifi with wpa2 and 2.4ghz as well as 5ghz works fine.

dhcpcd-ui you mean?

Looks very much dbus free.

I tried installing hyperbola a few days ago but was stopped due to gpg / pacman key not found by the maintainer.

Last edited by hevidevi (2021-10-07 15:00:21)

zapper · 2021-10-07 15:05:49

hevidevi wrote:

zapper wrote:
hevidevi wrote:
zapper can i ask what programs you use for network on hyperbola?
dhcpcd-gtk is one of them
dhcpcd + wpa_supplicant both of which seem to work without dbus in Hyperbola.
and yes, wifi with wpa2 and 2.4ghz as well as 5ghz works fine.
dhcpcd-ui you mean?
Looks very much dbus free.
I tried installing hyperbola a few days ago but was stopped due to gpg / pacman key not found by the maintainer.

Yeah, you can bypass that actually, set SigLevel to never.

Its no big deal.

hevidevi · 2021-10-07 15:09:13

zapper wrote:

hevidevi wrote:
zapper wrote:
dhcpcd-gtk is one of them
dhcpcd + wpa_supplicant both of which seem to work without dbus in Hyperbola.
and yes, wifi with wpa2 and 2.4ghz as well as 5ghz works fine.
dhcpcd-ui you mean?
Looks very much dbus free.
I tried installing hyperbola a few days ago but was stopped due to gpg / pacman key not found by the maintainer.
Yeah, you can bypass that actually, set SigLevel to never.
Its no big deal.

Did that, still failed. Im pretty sure the maintainers key is kaput. By that i mean that the key cannot be found on any key servers. When was the last time you had to refresh pacman keys?

Last edited by hevidevi (2021-10-07 15:10:48)

zapper · 2021-10-07 15:19:13

hevidevi wrote:

zapper wrote:
hevidevi wrote:
dhcpcd-ui you mean?
Looks very much dbus free.
I tried installing hyperbola a few days ago but was stopped due to gpg / pacman key not found by the maintainer.
Yeah, you can bypass that actually, set SigLevel to never.
Its no big deal.
Did that, still failed. Im pretty sure the maintainers key is kaput. By that i mean that the key cannot be found on any key servers. When was the last time you had to refresh pacman keys?

They are working on 0.4 tirelessly lately, let me think for a second... I believe you need to comment the other SigLevel, as well.. then it will allow you to update.

comment this:

#SigLevel = Required DatabaseOptional
And have this non commented like so...
SigLevel = Never

If either is incorrect/missing make the changes.

Last edited by zapper (2021-10-07 15:22:01)

The officially official Devuan Forum!

#1 2021-10-05 04:25:00

Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#2 2021-10-05 15:12:52

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#3 2021-10-05 21:44:08

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#4 2021-10-05 23:58:03

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#5 2021-10-06 02:00:36

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#6 2021-10-06 03:37:56

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#7 2021-10-06 03:57:32

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#8 2021-10-06 08:26:27

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#9 2021-10-06 23:34:56

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#10 2021-10-06 23:54:39

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#11 2021-10-07 00:45:26

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#12 2021-10-07 05:06:44

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#13 2021-10-07 11:56:10

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#14 2021-10-07 12:30:48

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#15 2021-10-07 14:18:47

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#16 2021-10-07 14:21:34

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#17 2021-10-07 14:38:49

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#18 2021-10-07 14:42:20

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#19 2021-10-07 14:46:04

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#20 2021-10-07 14:49:14

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#21 2021-10-07 14:51:17

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#22 2021-10-07 14:59:36

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#23 2021-10-07 15:05:49

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#24 2021-10-07 15:09:13

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

#25 2021-10-07 15:19:13

Re: Palemoon drama, has gotten bad,

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